Options for Thoroughbred Sport Horse Breeders

I tried searching this and didn’t come up with anything specific. There are plenty of topics on pedigrees and sport horse lines, but my main question is “What are the options for potential thoroughbred mare owners who wish to breed pure thoroughbreds geared towards a specific equitation?” (Dressage, Show Jumper, Hunter, etc.)

Each equitation requires different characteristics both physically and mentally, and there are thoroughbred stallions all over the world that could be utilized to open up pedigrees and improve thoroughbred sport horse breeding. But the Jockey club only allows live cover for registration. (Although Australia is at the forefront of change.) And many American Warmblood registries will approve Jockey club registered thoroughbreds. (Please let me know if there are registries that approved TB horses with no papers or of unknown decent.)

As a mare owner, I have to be very tactful when choosing any stallion yet alone an American race bred stallion with the goal in mind is to create a sport horse. Too many thoroughbred stallions are the wrong type or are too expensive for the average sport horse breeder. It is truly unfortunate that many proven sport TB stallions are found out too late.

My personal goal would be to breed show jumping/dressage thoroughbreds to use for a dressage breeding program. It is a long term project, that lives on the side of my main breeding program. I wish to breed thoroughbreds for the use of solidifying my mare lines.

I had one more thought after posting my first question;
“Why is it we have to continue to “find” our next champion, or use “mediocre” race bred horses for our breeding programs, rather than building on already proven lines and utilizing goal oriented standards in a registry form?” Standards that ask us to require the exception from our thoroughbreds, and ourselves as riders/breeders.

Are there any organizations that support this breeding thought process? And do they support the use of frozen thoroughbred semen?

Some big questions there.

The fundamental difference is that the racing industry doesn’t give a flying rats-arse about furthering our sport horse endeavours. They will never make their valuable stallions available. Also, the live cover thing makes it a logistical nightmare.

However it is a real possibility to utilise fillies from outstanding TB bloodlines, as broodmares. Much less expensive too.

Some time ago I bred pure TBs aimed at top level eventing. Finding exceptional quality mares was not too difficult but getting access to stallions was a nightmare. Fortunately there were some that were made available to sport horse breeders (eg. Aberlou) and a dynasty was born. Without doubt these sires became better known for their sporting offspring rather than their race winnings!

The thing is, many of the famous high-end racing TBs are not necessarily well suited to sport. Especially some of the wheelbarrow-shaped sprinters. Finding the lovely rangy big stayers is becoming harder and harder.

There are several top quality TB stallions available in the US that have a proven record of producing competitive sport horses. These horses may only have a mediocre race record - but does this really matter?

Yes, but getting your mare to them is another story. You can breed to AFR and some other proven sport horse producers by AI, but you have an unregistered foal.

I completely agree and am on the same page with your Kerole. But Eventer55 has hit the nail on the head.

How are breeders supposed to market a foal with no papers, or cont. to strive to breed a legit horse that registries would accept? When Frozen, or chilled semen is not accessible, and along with distance and travel cost?

So are there any options for breeders who want to pursue pure thoroughbred sport horses? If there isn’t an option available now, could an informed group of people create a registry that would fill in the gap? (And be accepted by other sport registries?)

Your TB foal can be inispected in, say, Old N/A, and branded. I’d say that mares and foal that are sporthorse inspected are of more value to a rider in one of the Olympic disciplines than a Jockey Club registry. The mares can be performance tested, too, and when they have show records even better.

I bred my TB with good sporthorse lines to Final Pool (frozen only available now)
and got a stunning classic sporthorse type.

I think it would be an advantage if registries would do dual registry because a TB is not really an Oldenburg…especially as the generatioins go on. Is PHR still around?

Nice looking stallion. Any conformation pictures or video available?

Seems like the PHR is still around. http://www.phr.com/

These are such good questions! (and ones that I’ve been asking recently too) - I would love for there to be a recognized and respected full-TB registry that wasn’t the JC that allowed AI. My dream is to produce high quality sport Thoroughbreds, but it drives me nuts that there is no other registry. I believe registering is very important for tracking bloodlines, so register my babies with the JC at this point - to me it’s better than nothing. But it does limit the stallions I look at - if I had a way to register the babies with the Thoroughbred registry even if they were conceived AI, my stallion searches would broaden considerably as far as distance was concerned.

I have lots of opinions on your questions.

The French in particular have created many different registries for TBs and part TBs. In the past ten years or so, a new one for racing part TBs has come into existence. It’s the AQPS (Other than pure blood) and is the French equivalent of the Weatherby’s Non Thoroughbred registry which has always been available for registering part TBs in Great Britain. BUT Great Britain and France have also always allowed part breds to race in flat and steeplechase racing.

The US Jockey Club doesn’t have an equivalent registry, although it did try for a while with the original PHR. One reason for this is that part TBs are not allowed to race here at all in either flat or jumps races. This is stupid, as the European registries will eventually let superior part TBs into the main book and thus keep a tiny trickle of fresh blood into the breed there. Our Jockey Club will not do that, nor do our state racing commissions allow part TBs into TB races. (Not sure if there might not be some anti-trust implications here).

What this means is that European TBs and part TBs are allowed to prove themselves against each other, both on the flat and over jumps. The part TBs do extremely well over jumps.

In this country, the pure blood rule only dates back to the 1950s or so, which is, in a way funny, because until almost that time many US bred TBs were not considered full TBs in the UK under the Jersey Act and were therefore much less attractive to breeders regardless of their accomplishments. It might be that the US TB establishment decided to go with full TB only racing to keep exports attractive–there had been very few exports of US bred stock prior to the repeal of the Jersey Act.

At any rate the major impact was on jumps racing where part bred TBs had raced with success.

Another factor in the loss of the sport type TB was the loss of purpose bred jumps racing breeders. Very, very, very few jumps racers are purpose bred these days. They are most flat racing culls and mostly geldings. There are no NH stallions in the US. Jumps racing is so tiny, that the US can’t or won’t support a breeding industry. So the jumps racing bloodlines were allowed to die out. There are probably no living intact male descendants of the great jumps racing stallions of the 1940s and 50s–Battleship and Annapolis by Man O’War, for instance. (Parenthetically, we’ve almost let the Man O’War lines go extinct on top). And, of course, US racing is now predominately dirt sprint racing, not turf and not distance, which is another reason European TBs are not like the majority of US breds. So the US lines that featured stamina and movement that was efficient on grass weren’t and aren’t used in breeding for racing.

The other thing that has happened is that professionals in showjumping and dressage don’t want to make babies. I would assume the same is true in hunters. It’s so much easier to go to Europe and buy horses who are already well started under tack–almost show ready–as the risk of duds is greatly reduced. How many barns are left who are like Frank Chapot and Bruce Davidson who can and will breed and bring along prospects? The USET no longer owns horses.

The TB industry has changed; the American TB has changed; the sport horse industry has changed. All of these changes have led to the box those who believe that the TB could still compete at the highest level now find themselves in.

There are still a few TBs standing for sport horses. Yellow Creek and AFR, Castle Cove, Innkeeper, Fun and Fancy Free, Audited, Salute The Truth, Mystic Replica, Coconut Grove–but they are all aging fast. I love Roanoke but he too is aged. The young TB sport stallions, if there are any, are few and so far off the radar that most of us don’t even know about them. There is no sport TB marketing machine.

I think I saw on a previous thread… the hint that PHR really needs someone to take over and build it.

I was going to mention PHR…but see I was a bit late.

Viney… I always love reading your insight and wisdom.

A curiosity question… for those of us who love the thoroughbred, madly/deeply/truly…for sporthorse disciplines…

Will we find ourselves buying TB’s overseas’s eventually?

When the type/lines have been left to die out?

I was so excited to see the influx of TB’s back in Rolex and other various “big” sporthorse viewings/competitions.

PHR registry belongs to USEF, If anyone really wants to tell them that it needs to be taken over and rebuilt I’d be interested to hear the reply to that one. And no, PHR no longer is a TB registry, hasnt been for years and years.

Ouch!! will probably be your response.

Not that it doesn’t annoy me that they don’t make the data public. But on the other hand they don’t make the data public for the much larger, more inclusive USEF recorded/HID horses. After all they have all that performance information. PHR horses are a small subset.

But if you have a TB and can’t do JC they are a great place to document your TB.

An unregistered foal does not bother the largest market, H/J if it’s intended to be a performance horse. The idea that no one will buy an unregistered foal is spread by the WB registries but really isnt the case unless you have a mare and want to breed later and worry about papers. Look at all the division leaders in Hunters who are ‘un known’

And Viney, I’m not sure if you aren’t keeping up with TB stallions competing or producing or what but your list is sadly missing a few.

Question for those whoever said their registry would brand a TB foal. wouldn’t the sire and dam both need to be approved for breeding by the registry or are you talking about a half brand, pre registry whatever? Seems odd that a WB registry would brand a TB foal.

Thanks Viney for all of that great input, I always love reading your posts. :slight_smile: And yes unfortunately, we are in a box. But does the performance type thoroughbred need to be forever chained to a racing industry? It has already been stated that we do not use racing types, for that matter we do not use racing quality gaits.

I guess the question is tied to; Are thoroughbred’s race horses first and foremost, or can there be room for outside development? Would this destroy or help us with the traits we desire in this breed?

If a group of breeders/registry/judges/trainers could get it together, would be a rescue plan (that would take years) be plausible and commercially sale-able?

Don’tStrikeOut - What I find sad is that European breeders do come here to find stallions. Rabitor is just a single example. http://www.pedigreequery.com/ratibor

There have also been several color TB stallions. I can find them if needed.

And why is it that in America we seem unable to bring the market to us?!?

On a side note, the PHR seems to currently be using an influx of other breeds, along with thoroughbred blood. It slightly reminds me of the AWR, AWS. Just using a different base.

PineTreeFarm - I would be very interested in that list.

I know there are other TBs out there standing for the sport horse disciplines. I know I forgot Jones Hall and TKFs guys; Loyal Tendencies doesn’t have anything much on the ground competing, nor does Cor Magnifique who has only been standing a couple of years. I’ve done some research at the USEF, and the success rates of the ones I’ve researched haven’t been sterling.

Yes, there are more than a few colored TBs standing; but once again, I’m not sure how successful their get have been in actual competition.

So, PTF, if you would share your list, it would be greatly appreciated.

And to add to the sidebar… which stallion(s) still have Man 'O War on top?

[QUOTE=Lingkra;5391819]
I tried searching this and didn’t come up with anything specific. There are plenty of topics on pedigrees and sport horse lines, but my main question is “What are the options for potential thoroughbred mare owners who wish to breed pure thoroughbreds geared towards a specific equitation?” (Dressage, Show Jumper, Hunter, etc.)

Each equitation requires different characteristics both physically and mentally, and there are thoroughbred stallions all over the world that could be utilized to open up pedigrees and improve thoroughbred sport horse breeding. But the Jockey club only allows live cover for registration. (Although Australia is at the forefront of change.) And many American Warmblood registries will approve Jockey club registered thoroughbreds. (Please let me know if there are registries that approved TB horses with no papers or of unknown decent.)

As a mare owner, I have to be very tactful when choosing any stallion yet alone an American race bred stallion with the goal in mind is to create a sport horse. Too many thoroughbred stallions are the wrong type or are too expensive for the average sport horse breeder. It is truly unfortunate that many proven sport TB stallions are found out too late.

My personal goal would be to breed show jumping/dressage thoroughbreds to use for a dressage breeding program. It is a long term project, that lives on the side of my main breeding program. I wish to breed thoroughbreds for the use of solidifying my mare lines.[/QUOTE]

well first it depends on discipline. You will still find a fair number of TBs in the hunters, in spite of WBs being more of a presence than in the past. Next would be eventers, then jumpers, then dressage. Dressage type TBs are the hardest to find. Dressage has “up” and loft to the movement…which is the opposite of what the efficient racehorse is built like.

Sport TBs are found out “down the pike” in many cases as 98% of TBs are purpose bred for racing. There are proven sport TB stallions…but it is a short list relative to the list of race TBs out there. And yes, there are some lovely race Tbs But at stud fees of 10K and up…their offsping that end up as sporthorses are ones that didn’t cut it at the track. I can find a TB that didn’t run well by Not For Love, for example, for far less than his 25K stud fee. (Correction…I see his fee is down to 20K this year!). Several nice Pleasant Colony sons stand at around 10K…still too high compared to sporthorse stallion fees which rarely exceed 2,500. And yes, the majority of US race TBs are bred for dirt sprint races, which is the wrong body type. Sport TBs are build more like distance/turf horses…and that is not the bulk of US race cards.
The WB registries (Amercian and otherwise) will inspect an unpapered TB mare but you will also be in a lower registry book. That matters to some folks more than others.

[QUOTE=Lingkra;5391830]
I had one more thought after posting my first question;
“Why is it we have to continue to “find” our next champion, or use “mediocre” race bred horses for our breeding programs, rather than building on already proven lines and utilizing goal oriented standards in a registry form?” Standards that ask us to require the exception from our thoroughbreds, and ourselves as riders/breeders.

Are there any organizations that support this breeding thought process? And do they support the use of frozen thoroughbred semen?[/QUOTE]

well the WB registries do this. Only frozen semen from approved TBs can be used for registered WB offspring. The approval process can be difficult and expensive for a stallion (WB or TB). It is certainly less painful in the pocketbook for breeders to have MARES inspected!

wearing my “had a sporthorse TB stallion” hat: the big problem IS the live cover issue. Like many stallion owners, I have a small private farm. We are not set up to take in a lot of boarder mares. Plus there is the issue is having handler help with breeding said mares. DH was NOT fond of being recruited for the job of mare handler.Thus…it was easier to list him for breeding to AQHA and APHA mares. AI!! I take him to Hilltop, they collect him, ship it off FedEx and off we go. We were also in the WB approval process with 2 registries when he met an untimely end in a freak farm accident and broke his leg. He was only 5 years old and ready to start his show career under saddle. I now have his 3/4 TB APHA son. In some ways I wish he was a full TB, but I will not miss not having to do LC!

I have frozen on both my boys. I am no longer operating a breeding facility for outside mares/live cover. I realize that limits options for the use of frozen of TB stallions that were not approved by a wb registry and the JC won’t register pure TB babies conceived by AI. It is such a shame, but I believe their bloodlines are worth preserving and I know what they have produced. I wish there were some alternative routes.
PennyG

That is a misleading statement. This horse was neither sourced nor exported as a sport horse stallion. He was purchased by his current ownership as a yearling and sent to France to race. After an uninspiring debut performance at Saint Cloud, where he finished tailed off and more than likely bled, he was sent back across the ocean to take advantage of the USA’s liberal drug policies. He had a short career in California, before going back to Europe to become a sport horse sire. They didn’t spend $825k,000 on this horse to be siring sport horses.
The same owners spent $650,000 on Usurpator, though he never made it to the races.