Didn’t the Continental Studbook evolve to register TB’s that the JC wouldn’t take? Or am I crazy?
Hmm, I have lots of free time and know how to build websites. Maybe one day if I get too bored…
Non JC registered TBs are a pain here in NZ. You can’t get them classified by the big WB studbooks so they’re considered a bit second-class.
In order to avoid this, breeders are going to TB yearling and 2yo sales and buying their future breeding stock from there. You may think this is a costly way of procuring a potential TB sport sire but not necessarily. Some of the best sporting bloodlines are not always those that are commanding the big bucks for the racetrack.
This still does not enable a mare owner to freely use good racing sires but it is another option for those who are hellbent on breeding TBs for sport.
The Continental Studbook registers sport horses - dressage, jumping, eventing and hunters - bred in NA. Most of the horses registered are European warmblood breeds, many are pure HAN, HOL, OLD, Dutch etc whose owners who wish to promote the interests of NA breeders, rather than European verbands. Because it is a North American oriented studbook, it recogonizes hunters and is the only studbook that recogonizes tb horses that are bred for sport and will register pure tb horses. The rules require that the tbs registered are from sport horse lines - and provided the horses meet the sport requirements (IE not just a tb, but one who has a show record, or a family member with a show record in jumpers, dressage, eventing or hunters) it will register foals who are the product of transported semen, frozen semen, embryo transfer or cloning.
There is a web site.
[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;5392197]
Look at all the division leaders in Hunters who are ‘un known’[/QUOTE]
This might have as much to do with the propensity of hunter trainers and dealers to “lose” or toss registration papers (either because they do not believe a horse’s true identity is important, or because they want to deliberately change the horse’s identity to make a sale). I would not be surprised to learn that a fair number of those “division leaders” actually WERE registered SOMEWHERE as foals. 
I asked a similar question before…
[QUOTE=Lingkra;5391830]
I had one more thought after posting my first question;
“Why is it we have to continue to “find” our next champion, or use “mediocre” race bred horses for our breeding programs, rather than building on already proven lines and utilizing goal oriented standards in a registry form?” Standards that ask us to require the exception from our thoroughbreds, and ourselves as riders/breeders.
Are there any organizations that support this breeding thought process? And do they support the use of frozen thoroughbred semen?[/QUOTE]
Well, I have had similar thoughts and questions over the past several months… :winkgrin: Along with my primary breeding goal involving appaloosa sporthorses, I am primarily interested in locating and/or producing TBs which excel in sporthorse disciplines, particularly dressage…
Last year, I started a thread here with the goal of identifying any possible registry association that would “register” TBs bred by AI, and still be respected by other breed registries, etc… :yes:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275247&highlight=continental+stud+book
This concept really does appear to be a bit of a void in the sport horse world… Though I think most individuals who are utilizing TB lines in sport are producing TB/warmblood crosses, so there are many registry options for that type of foal…
For my own goals, should I produce a purpose bred full TB foal conceived by AI, I will probably embrace registry options with the Continental Stud Book…
I have still been thinking about this concept alot and I would LUV to see a TB specific sport horse registry be developed… If started in NA, maybe it could even be a associated with the JC (kinda like the PHR was in the beginning???..) Given the crazy things lots of organizations do to maintain revenue stream in these difficult economic times, I’m kinda surprised that the JC hasn’t moved in this direction as a way to enlarge their “client base”, although I recognize that it’s probably only a small goup of us to capture… :lol:
Time will tell! :eek:
Quite some years back, there was an announcement on this forum about a new TB registry designed specifically for sport breeders. It was called something like “North American Thoroughbred Breeders Association” (not the Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association - that is a race oriented organization). I am not sure what happened to that organization - it seems to have disappeared.
There is also the North American Thoroughbred Society, but it is strictly an awards organization - not a registry. It recognizes TBs as defined by JC.
A few WB registries have in the past issued registration papers for full TB foals sired by approved TB stallions and out of TB mares, but it seems a shame to register full TBs as “Oldenburgs” or whatever.
I think PHR is the best bet for those breeding full TBs for sport. Or maybe the new North American Studbook - not sure if they will register a full TB foal, but I believe they will approve TB stallions who are presented for inspection and who meet the performance requirements.
It is possible to register a thoroughbred foal in OLD NA/ISR
For instance, my OTTB mare is in their main mare book and has a performance star. A Fine Romance is a TB stallion in their studbook. If these two TB’s had a foal by live cover you could register it either with the JC or with OLD NA/ISR. If foal was produced by AI, it could still be OLD NA/ISR registered, tho not JC.
The process of getting my mare approved was easy and fun and not expensive. The stallion approvals are,I believe,more elaborate and costly. What is sad is that registering TB foals this way lets them disappear as TB’s into the warmblood pool in terms of recognition as TB sport horses.
I looked through their website, and perhaps I missed it, but what defines “sport horse lines” in Thoroughbreds? Do they have a list somewhere? Because this seems a bit subjective to me:
Why does the Studbook reject racing TBs?
The Continental Studbook’s highest purpose is promote breeding of horses suitable for the WBFSH tracked Olympic sports of dressage, eventing and show jumping and also for the North American sport of show hunters. Only horses suitable for this purpose are admitted to the registry, and there is no correlation of race performance to these sports. This restriction protects both Warmblood breeders and also Thoroughbred sport horse breeders from marketing and name brand dilution by non-competitive racing animals. The Studbook is interested in promoting the likes of Cottage Son, Laudanum and Gem Twist, and it is not interested in mares or stallions that are unsuitable for Olympic sports or hunters. A TB can have a previous race history, but it must demonstrate ability in the core sports to be accepted for breeding. The Studbook is willing to assist breeders in establishing suitability of their mares.
And just to clarify: I fully support the fact that the goal is to allow sport horse breeders to gain a foothold, and to separate them from the racing TB world. I’m just curious how they define sport horse bloodlines.
Similar to ISR
I used the BWP to register two AI’d TB sport horses by Coconut Grove back in 2007. It was a loophole at the time so I’m not sure if they closed it or not, but I’m very glad it existed so I had registration papers from a WBFSH-recognized registry to move forward with these two fillies.
Answering this from my foggy memory!
[QUOTE=AppJumpr08;5395290]
I looked through their website, and perhaps I missed it, but what defines “sport horse lines” in Thoroughbreds? Do they have a list somewhere? Because this seems a bit subjective to me:[/QUOTE]
As I recall from previous discussions, just search Continental Stud Book here on the COTH Forums,… they have distinct “performance criteria” (or a reproductive history of performance) for all of the individual sporthorse disciplines, as well as the hunters… Once a horse has met those criteria, they can be considered for registration…
So, for my own scenario, and btw, this works for me philosophically too, I have been searching for a TB mare that has, either a performance career that would allow CSB registration, or the apparent capacity to be a performance mare, and therefore be eligble for registration at some point… then, eventually, I plan to breed that mare via AI to the (now deceased) FEI level dressage stallion of which I have frozen semen… :winkgrin:
Maybe someone involved directly in the CSB will chime in here… :yes:
I am the registrar for the Continental Studbook and was part of the group that wrote the rule book.
It was not easy. Our intent was and remains to allow in tb mares and stallions that have the ability to pass on genetic traits that would make horses suitable for the Olympic sports or hunters. There are breeders who breed tb sport horses. There are race horses that have the ability to be sport horses - and there are a lot of tbs that are not good race horses, and are not good sport horse candidates either.
If you have a mare who had a show record - she is in. If her sire, sister etc has a show record, she is in. If you have a mare ( or a foal by a stallion) that is a graded stakes winner - we will take that horse to. If you are a breeder with a compelling arguement, then I am more than willing to listen why your diamond in the rough is worthy of consideration.
We are deliberatly picky about pedigrees. Our research has shown that sucess in sport in all of our sports inherited to at least some degree. That said, we willl take a mare with a good pedigree - that has an underlying physical problem from age or injury that would eliminate her from other stud books because she would not pass the approvals.
We are interested in producing good quality animals - that can only come from using good quality breeding stock.
We have had some discussions about rewriting portions of our rule book to make them eaiser to understand. We have alwasy been happy to work with breeders to make our system work for them.
email the registrar if you have questions.
becky
Becky, why the frowning icon?
Hi Becky!
Thanks for commenting… I feel guilty as I looked at your website last year, but nothing since, so I apologize if I misquoted any of the information in my previous comment…
Again, though I understand there was some controversy in a previous COTH thread discussion regarding the Continental Stud Book (as there will always be controversy with new things… :lol:), the concept really appeals to me, philosophically, to “register” horses based on their performance or “relatedness” to performance horses…
And, I agree entirely that there are TBs that do great at the track, but not so much in sport disciplines, then there are TBs that do great at sport disciplines, but not at the track, then, clearly there are those horses that are just nice to have in your back yard! :yes:
I am very interested in seeing more TBs succeed in the sport horse disciplines, particularly dressage, and at the present time, the Continental Stud Book may be the only registry here in NA that would allow me to register full TB offspring produced via AI from parents who have performed well in competition…
Thanks again!
Martha
I had my thoroughbred stallion licensed for breeding with the American Warmblood Registry and my thoroughbred mares approved for breeding by them as well. Many very well known sport thoroughbred breeders I know have happily used the PHR.
I think - as others have pointed out - the downside of registering full TB foals with any “warmblood” registry, is that the foals and their descendants are not known as “Thoroughbreds”. They become instead “Continental Warmbloods”, “American Warmbloods”, etc.
It would be great for sport TB breeders to have a registry for full TBs bred by either live cover or AI, that does parentage verification via DNA analysis, maybe has an awards program, maybe even an inspection/approval process of some sort to help identify the best prospects for breeding SPORT horses (as opposed to racing types).
The big problem I see with using the PHR and CS for the AI’d TBs is that they are not recognized by the WBFSH so the horse will not be recognized by other European-based registries if you decide to breed it down the road. I believe ISR has the same problem, but to a much lesser extent, with certain registries not accepting their horses, as does the AWR/AWS.
This was a huge factor in how I decided to register my AI’d TBs as I wanted to be able to move forward with them in my breeding program if I got fillies.
Case in point… Last year, I bred my Coconut xx Grove-Final Pool xx BWP-papered filly to a SF-approved stallion. I can take that foal either KWPN or BWP. And because my 100% TB is BWP-papered, she has Erkend status with the KWPN so can she produce a foalbook foal if I breed her to a Dutch-approved stallion. 
The harsh reality is economics. It’s been quoted too many times… the average Warmblood stallion in this country gets 2 breedings a years. I don’t see the feasibility in a registry surviving based solely on TB sport horse breeders. :no: The number is just too small.
After reading the article in COTH about the Chapot’s and Gemini Twist, I’m more than a little curious to see what, if any, registration options they pursue with him and how that might affect TB sporthorse breeding. If Europeans like Joris de Brabander are interested in acquiring breedings to Gemini Twist, he is going to have to be approved by WBFSH-member registries.
Question. Why does the JC insist on live cover? Wouldn’t it be easier to fight that battle and maybe change the rule than to start another registry all together? Or maybe create a subdivision for horses that will never race?
There are reasons given such as limiting the number of offspring by a given stallion, but I’ve heard several agree that it’s really the huge sub-economy that supports the live covering of mares that would disappear if they could ship semen.
[quote=Anteup;5397793]Or maybe create a subdivision for horses that will never race?
[/quote]
It really all comes down to finances. How many horses do you think would be registered as sport horses only? Sadly, there are just not sufficient numbers to justify doing such a thing.
[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;5397825]
There are reasons given such as limiting the number of offspring by a given stallion, but I’ve heard several agree that it’s really the huge sub-economy that supports the live covering of mares that would disappear if they could ship semen.
[It really all comes down to finances. How many horses do you think would be registered as sport horses only? Sadly, there are just not sufficient numbers to justify doing such a thing.[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify, do you mean the breeding farms that people send their big name mares to when they retire? I’m not at all up to speed on race breeding, but the whole Zenyatta thing had me wondering. Do owners pick a barn with stallions in mind? Is that what the sub-economy is? Barns that house stallions and accept mares in for breeding?
This truly is sad. Its a vicious cycle. TB’s aren’t as popular as WB’s in the HJ world because they aren’t bred for it, and they aren’t bred for it because there isn’t a market for them.
