But there are thoroughbred stallion out there that are affordable and desirable for sport. Lots of them. You just have to be willing to do the legwork. :yes:
At least there are for the people who are willing to do live cover.
Question. Why does the JC insist on live cover? Wouldn’t it be easier to fight that battle and maybe change the rule than to start another registry all together? Or maybe create a subdivision for horses that will never race?
Because they don’t want a similar genetic contraction that the STB breeding industry has had since the intro of AI in STB breeding 40 odd years ago.
As somebody also hinted at, there are vested economic interests in areas that are large centers of TB breeding (Kentucky, Normandy, Hunter Valley, Kildare, etc) that revolve around boarding of mares etc. But those are not the the reasons that the various TB studbooks do not allow AI, though the lobbying power of those interests would make it harder to overturn.
[QUOTE=rio2;5398404]
But there are thoroughbred stallion out there that are affordable and desirable for sport. Lots of them. You just have to be willing to do the legwork. :yes:
At least there are for the people who are willing to do live cover.[/QUOTE]
Yes there are 
I’ve got one
[QUOTE=Secretariat2;5398720]
Yes there are I’ve got one :)[/QUOTE]
See? :lol:
Well, inquiring minds want to know (or at least I do…) who do you have?
[QUOTE=FlyingBolt-Golden Cygnet;5392477]
That is a misleading statement. This horse was neither sourced nor exported as a sport horse stallion. He was purchased by his current ownership as a yearling and sent to France to race. After an uninspiring debut performance at Saint Cloud, where he finished tailed off and more than likely bled, he was sent back across the ocean to take advantage of the USA’s liberal drug policies. He had a short career in California, before going back to Europe to become a sport horse sire. They didn’t spend $825k,000 on this horse to be siring sport horses.
The same owners spent $650,000 on Usurpator, though he never made it to the races.[/QUOTE]
Most TB stallions used by WB registries in Europe were at least moderately successful race horses and they were approved for breeding based on that (GAG index). Only a handful have done the 70 day performance test as would otherwise be required. I’m not sure if Ratibor has only passed the initial grading (shown in hand and free jumped) or if he has been given permanent approval.
I had my eye on Ratibor’s full sister who was sold at Keeneland last month, but she sold for about $90k in foal to Mr Greeley. Not all horses appealing to sporthorse breeders are unappealing for race.
[QUOTE=rio2;5398752]
See? :lol:
Well, inquiring minds want to know (or at least I do…) who do you have?[/QUOTE]
I have Navy Bird. He produces very nice, sane TBs with lovely movement and temperaments. He’s only produced 4 foals so far and he’s 11 and I’ve had him since he was 4. One is a very nice appendix QH, the other 3 are TBs. I’m keeping one and I have one for sale. Don’t want to turn this into an ad, but my website is www.nonesuchsporthorses.com One other filly was bred to race but hasn’t yet.
He’s a total sweetheart who lives with a QH gelding buddy and my completely non-horsey husband handles him for live cover 
He’s been taught how to do it the other way too
He’s got very nice breeding for racing but we are in VA and nobody wants a VA bred to race. I did go ahead and get him registered as a stallion standing in VA this year but he’s not yet listed on the VTA website (this bugs me). He is 16.2 hh and built beautifully for the sporthorse disciplines. He is drop dead gorgeous. Looks like his great grand daddy, Secretariat. I’m his mom and understandably biased but many others have told me the same thing.
He’s also recorded with the AQHA and APHA and registered with the PHR.
I do wish there were better documentation of sport tbs, and that the wb registries would get over the JC requirement and inspect AI tbs in order to improve their breeds. The registry does not matter to me and many of the people I ride with, but I see it does to many.
I bred the best horse I could imagine for myself and did not worry about the registry. She is all tb by A Fine Romance and with Stage Door Johnny for her broodmare sire. AFR’s record is pretty well known here, he has sired all kinds of successful sporthorses and showhorses, including a tb GP jumper. Plenty of Olympic Event team members have his offspring for prospects. Etc, etc, he is wonderful and beautiful, and so is his owner, and he has a website which lists a lot more good stuff. SDJ was the broodmare sire of a wellknown tb GP jumper Tashiling, plus Worth the Trust, KOC’s tb 1996 Olympic alternate. I learned about SDJ by chance, when I bought a 1999 PHR stallion catalog. That was when I found out my wonderful ottb mare had the sport breeding credibility on paper. Not that it mattered to me. I already knew she was the best horse I ever rode. Ironically, I believe part of how AFR came to be bred was because his owner had felt the same way about AFR’s uncle.
So, anyhow, fast forward to now I love her and I have loved the journey. My 8yo unregistered tb AFR daughter is awesome, a hunter champion, adult EQ champion, novice eventer, and a star with dressage judge, local GP trainer, and BN clinician, who all tell me to breed her. And I am not that great a rider, just a middle aged backyard amateur.
Considering some 1/2 tb horses I have seen on this board in Europe who look GREAT, such as some champion (Romanov Driver?) by Romanov, and then the 90k Falsterbo/ Laurie’s Crusader this week, I am thinking that all the registries need to smarten up and accept AI’d tbs. When you get into 2nd or 3rd generation sport tbs, you obviously have reinforced the good SPORT minds, conformation, and athleticism in their genetics. I think your chances of sport breeding success are generally greater with them than an ottb. It is just crazy if an AI tb is limited over a JC tb with the registries. AI is the best way to selectively breed a horse.
However, as far as using ottbs for sport breeding, it is an obvious choice. We have good ones under our nose, and don’t most american registries accept them? Personally, after observing the fanciest wb imports with the best breeding, I would be careful buying one because of the problems I have observed regarding temperment and soundness. Fortunately, they do cross beautifully with tbs to solve a lot of that.
I think breeders should go take a look at the horse, instead of worrying about the names in the pedigree so much. That is mostly what a rider is going to do with any horse, tb or wb. They are ultimately the one who will ride and compete the horse. I have spent about three days at a racetrack in my entire life, but saw many good prospects, just as I have seen famously bred wbs that did not cut it.
I wouldn’t worry that we can’t afford to breed with the race winners for sport. I love, respect, and admire them, but a race winner is not necessarily the sport winner. I’ve got one of those, too. The registries are right to have inspection criteria for horses with minds and bodies for sport riders.
I think a good horse breeder is an individual who does what they think is best. So many of the most famous stallions in sport were not approved in the first place by their registry. It should not be about breeding to a stallion du jour who hasn’t done much, just because the new hot name might get the breeder bigger bucks for a registered wb foal.
[QUOTE=mbj;5395209]
It is possible to register a thoroughbred foal in OLD NA/ISR
For instance, my OTTB mare is in their main mare book and has a performance star. A Fine Romance is a TB stallion in their studbook. If these two TB’s had a foal by live cover you could register it either with the JC or with OLD NA/ISR. If foal was produced by AI, it could still be OLD NA/ISR registered, tho not JC.
The process of getting my mare approved was easy and fun and not expensive. The stallion approvals are,I believe,more elaborate and costly. What is sad is that registering TB foals this way lets them disappear as TB’s into the warmblood pool in terms of recognition as TB sport horses.[/QUOTE]
mbj is exactly right.
ISR/OldNA will register a full Thoroughbred if he or she is by an approved stallion out of an approved mare.
A Fine Romance has a few full TB foals who are registered ISR/OLD/NA, including a colt who was high score colt at his inspection this year.
This colt is still intact, and it is my hope that his owner will keep him as a stallion.
I have always been a Thoroughbred lover, and believe in them as the athlete extraordinaire of the horse world.
I used to breed for racing, and I bred A Fine Romance to be a race horse.
But at the same time as I was breeding for racing, I felt a longterm responsibility to the horses I was breeding.
Their racing lives can be short - and I wanted to try to ensure that all the horses I bred would have the best chance of a good life AFTER racing.
To that end, my goal was to breed beautiful, sound, sane athletes. Horses who would (hopefully) stay sound racing - and then go on to have a happy life and second career when their racing days were over.
I decided not to sell AFR at the yearling sales, and I decided not to race him, but instead tried to put my own beliefs into action, by proving him as a sport horse (although I certainly believe race horses are sport horses!!).
Sometimes it has felt that I have been swimming upstream - but if you have a strong belief as I did, in both the individual horse and in the value of these bloodlines in sporthorses, it has been worth it.
My hope is that in the end he will have a lasting legacy.
We do have some full TB offspring conceived by LC, but they have been out of local mares who did not have to ship long distances. Over the years I have spoken to many mare owners who would love to breed to him, but they were so far away it just didn’t make economic sense - nor good for the horse to ship her so far.
Many of my clients therefore have forgone registration, because they wanted a foal from this cross.
To the best of my knowledge these resultant fillies (like Renasance’s beautiful young mare) can be inspected and approved for breeding by ISR/OldNA.
My hope is that the other WB registries will open their doors to TBs who do not have JC papers. The pedigrees can be verified - and these valuable bloodlines would not be ‘lost’ to sporthorse breeding.
I think that the registries need to be approached by their members to make this happen.
What does make me sad is as Babette said, that while the pedigrees and blood will live on, these horses will be ‘lost’ as TBs.
[QUOTE=Secretariat2;5398720]
Yes there are I’ve got one :)[/QUOTE]
lol - me too lol
( http://www.pedigreequery.com/bar+v+cu+chulainn )
And I clicked your webpage and was pleasantly pleased to see another stallion that looked similar to my boy that I pulled his pedigree to what relations they had (Secretariat)
Of course now its a matter of seeing what my guy is going to throw - I have a 2 y/o by him, and keep track of a pony filly by him that is just turning 2. I have seen a 6 y.o by him, and know he was bred to a few QH mares previously. I inherited him so I’m looking forward to seeing what he throws for myself off of my own mares.
The sport TBs are out there - but obviously not all of them are heavily advertised and some of them do stand for the racing crowd too.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;5398669]
Because they don’t want a similar genetic contraction that the STB breeding industry has had since the intro of AI in STB breeding 40 odd years ago.[/QUOTE]
That dog don’t fight (or perhaps that should be “that dogma don’t fight”! :)).
It was a valid argument 40+ years ago when a stallion was syndicated for 40 shares - which was the number of mares that it was estimated a stallion could breed live cover in a season. That calculation was based on the concept that each mare would be bred 3 times in a heat cycle, and that some mares would be bred for more than one cycle, so there were an estimated 120-150 covers a year. Now however, we have ultrasound to pinpoint impending ovulation and drugs to promote ovulation in a timely manner, so instead of 120-150 covers, it is perfectly realistic to breed 120-150 mares a single time (with a few more than once). Add to that the fact that there are now “dual hemisphere shuttle stallions” and you have some stallions that are breeding 200-300 mares a year. One would not see more than that bred by AI.
To further compound the increase in breeding - and also eliminate the argument that requiring live cover only will maintain only fertile stallions - we have “reinforcement breeding” permitted with the Thoroughbred in the USA. This is where semen that has been deposited in the mare’s vagina or captured in a dismount sample during live cover has semen extender added and is then inseminated into the mare. Consequently, if a stallion is being over-used and his sperm numbers have dropped (or he had poor sperm numbers to start with), were he to breed live cover, his pregnancy rate would of course drop, but because this AI method is permitted, a smaller number of sperm can be introduced directly to the uterus, and pregnancy rates maintained.
Interestingly, the Australian Jockey Club commissioned research several years ago that looked at how much of an increase in the number of breedings would be required before an inbreeding coefficient increased. It also looked at what impact the introduction of transported semen would have. The results indicated that stallions would have to breed six times as many mares as they currently do before the inbreeding coefficient increased, and that in fact the introduction of transported semen would reduce the inbreeding coefficient!
The market is a great stabilizer - if a stallion breeds too many mares in a given year, then the value of the foals at the yearling sales will drop and consequently he will breed fewer mares in subsequent years. The savvy stallion manager would therefore limit the book even if AI were permitted. Those that don’t would potentially lose out in the long run. As an aside, it is often asked why the Jockey Club would not restrict the number of mares a stallion can breed a year (or the number bred by AI) and the answer to that is that it would represent a limitation of trade, which is illegal under International law. The owner of the animal however does have that right.
Jos has an argument consisting of just 2 words when someone presents the concept that introducing AI would result in over-breeding to a minority of stallions and therefore inbreeding in the Thoroughbred Stud Book. His argument is “Northern Dancer” :). THAT amount of breeding - which has resulted in a huge percentage of North American breds carrying that lineage - was all achieved with only live cover. One would not see a greater impact with AI, so we know that it can be achieved with live cover only if desired.
I agree with Kathy that dog won’t hunt. The arguement that the JC is preserving genetic diversity and somehow protecting the breed does not hold water for me either.
It sounds great, and no one will argue against ‘protecting the breed’… but let’s look a little closer, and use Northern Dancer and Mr P as our examples.
It is hard to find a TB these days who does not have either ND or MrP in its pedigree.
Of course not everyone could afford to breed to/or have a mare that would meet the stud farm’s standards, so not many could get to the ‘great man’ himself.
At one point ND’s stud fee was 1million$, no LFG.
So what happened?
Sons and grandsons of these horses went to stud by the 1000s.
Many who were not particularly good individuals, but they suited a regional market, and gave the Everyman of race breeding a chance to introduce the great horse into their breeding program. A specific example here in Ontario were sons of Vice Regent, a ND son.
He was a so-so race horse, but became an outstanding sire - with the result that many of his very ordinary sons went to the breeding shed.
The result? a LOSS of genetic diversity.
And many good stallions who were not of that blood faded into the woodwork and went out of fashion.
Further, shipped semen would help the smaller breeders (like I was) who might want to breed to a reasonably priced KY based stallion, but by the time you factored in the shipping, the day care, vet costs, all in US$ etc, it was not economically feasible. So I bred to the best stallion I could afford who was in Ontario. Not necessarily the best stallion for my mare.
It is not just the powerful KY farms and support businesses who lobby against AI, but those in the regional markets, ie PA, NY, MD, Ontario etc.
Still, I am sure if they thought outside the ‘box’ (pun intended) there is a way they could make AI work and be acceptable.
[QUOTE=Fred;5401014]
I agree with Kathy that dog won’t hunt. The arguement that the JC is preserving genetic diversity and somehow protecting the breed does not hold water for me either.
It sounds great, and no one will argue against ‘protecting the breed’… but let’s look a little closer, and use Northern Dancer and Mr P as our examples.
It is hard to find a TB these days who does not have either ND or MrP in its pedigree.
.
Still, I am sure if they thought outside the ‘box’ (pun intended) there is a way they could make AI work and be acceptable.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I was looking at the Blood Horse stallion register. If you add up the horses that have Mr.P, Northern D, Seattle Slew and Storm Cat…it is most of the book!
I wonder if any of the existing European registries in the US have considered developing a Pure Thoroughbred book?
TB mare owners could continue to have their mares inspected for breeding to approved WB stallions - pure TB mares would actually receive dual approvals for both the regular registry books and the pure Thoroughbred books. Mare owners could then choose to breed to an approved WB stallion for one type of foal, or to an approved TB stallion for a TB foal.
TB stallion approvals would have to be somewhat flexible for the first few decades. For example, mare owners could petition for a temporary approval for a TB stallion based on pedigree or previous offspring. If granted, these temporary approvals would be good for say 2 years (and only for pure TB mares), after which time the quality of the resulting foals would be used to make a case for or against maintaining the approval for another 2 year period. This way inspectors could maintain a stated goal of producing pure TB horses of a sport type. Stallions with temporary approval who don’t produce this type would be removed from the gene pool. Eventually, with an increase in size of the book, the stallion approval process could be made more like the WB stallion approval process.
Foals would receive papers stating that they are registed within the studbook AND that they are pure TB even if the breeding was AI. High quality colts would be scored and considered for stallion approval following a more traditional process.
I would think that this type of book could be good for the European registry for at least two reasons: 1) the registry would be very attractive to TB mare owners and thus the registry would make $$, and 2) the registry could guide the breeding of future pure TB stallions that would be of useful type and bloodlines to the greater registry mare base.
TB stallions
Here is the rub on those who have TB stallions “performance”. Ok in fairness not only TB stallions but rises to the top Performance!!! What I would give to find a TB stallion, cofirmation , movement, pedigree and performance. I don’t mean the local level, I mean performance. Recordable, searchable performance records
While there are ways to register TB’s in a warmblood registry, I ask why? TB’s are not Oldenburg n?A’s. The PHR started out with the right intentions, but fizzled along the way. I have two hores registered PHR, because I thought it was a good idea, but there is not a lot offered.
The sport bred TB is - in my opinion - still the most beautiful, elegant, intelligent and athletic horse. Breed back the soundness and wow.
[QUOTE=rio2;5398404]
But there are thoroughbred stallion out there that are affordable and desirable for sport. Lots of them. You just have to be willing to do the legwork. :yes:
At least there are for the people who are willing to do live cover.[/QUOTE]
Live cover . . .that’s the kicker. I’ve had a couple people interested in breeding to my TB stallion but when they realized he was live cover only they balked. I do plan on offering frozen eventually, but not until he passes his AWR breeding approvals. Even then it leaves TB mare options limited. It is silly to have to register a full TB with Old etc, but what other options does one have?
[QUOTE=Adagio;5401863]
Here is the rub on those who have TB stallions “performance”. Ok in fairness not only TB stallions but rises to the top Performance!!! What I would give to find a TB stallion, cofirmation , movement, pedigree and performance. I don’t mean the local level, I mean performance. Recordable, searchable performance records[/QUOTE]
Any horse that shows in a USEF show has a performance record even if the division they show in is not rated.
All that is required is a USEF recording or a USEF HID.
So what performance records are you looking for?
Tb Sport Horse
We have in our barn a 4 yo Thoroughbred colt that is a sport horse. Not just a jumper/eventer, but dressage and hunters.
He has a great disposition and is about 17hh.
We bred him to my mothers arabian mare for a 2013 foal and will be standing him again. I didn’t just offer live cover but also AI.
I’ve been looking for somewhere else besides JC to get him into. I’d like to see him pass on his traits and calm disposition as well as his willingness to work.
Photos of ELOC
http://fantasyoakfarm.ning.com/photo/albums/3021928:Album:299
His pedigree
http://www.pedigreequery.com/eloc2
I’d like to see about getting him inspected, but don’t know which direction to go. Any help is appreciated.
Also, with an Anglo-Arabian foal? What registries do Sporthorse inspections?
Thanks
His Damsire is also the sire of A Fine Romance.
A competition career would help with some of the Registries. Has he been out and done anything yet? Do you plan to have him compete in any sport discipline? All of the reputable WB registries, I THINK, will accept a TB sire as an improvement sire–in theory, but getting one licensed in the US is very, very difficult and is next to impossible without a stellar competition career. The Trakehners seem to be the most TB friendly where stallions are concerned. Or you could go the route that A Fine Romance did, which is mentioned earlier in this.
PHR is a joke. It accepts anything without discrimination, so its only value seems to be as a place to keep DNA records on unregistered horses. While that is of huge importance, their pedigree records are not accepted by any WB registries that I know of.
You’d do well to register an Anglo Arab with the Arabians, simply because they offer so many different kinds of breed classes. We have nothing at all comparable to the French AA and AC registries for horses who have nothing but TB and Arab blood.
4 year old stallion
So muse2greats, I am a breeder and always looking to add good TB blood to my herd. This year I have two foals, both 1/2 TB. Next year I have one due, that foal will be almost 1/2 TB.
I went to your website, and looked at all your pictures and videos they are not really showing me anything that makes me say ‘yes’ I want to bred to your stallion. Backyard jumps, you in jeans and sneakers, pictures that really don’t show me conformation. No free movement, free jump video at all. As a matter of fact no jumps that show we his true form as a jumper. Quality, size of video adds to the inability to assess your stallion as a match. You want mares to breed to your boy you have to market him. Get good quality video of him at a show, clean braided for him, professional attire for you. Show him off! Get him in a jump chute, lets see what he does when he is going over a jump that challenges him. You mentioned you had a foal this year, I can’t find him/her anywhere. Picture of the dam and foal would provide at least some hint as to how he stamps his foals. He may be a fabulous addition to my breeding goals, I just cannot tell that from what I see. Then as vineyridge mentioned nothing beats performance. When it comes time for me to sell my foals its going to be much easier to sell a foal with a 3* sire then it is to sell a horse whose sire is a backyard TB. Last but not least foals on the ground. Offer special deals to quality mares, especially those that compete there mares/foals/horses. Fred is successful because the horses he produces are successful. Owning a stallion is a tough place to be, I can’t imagine that the rewards are monetary, lets face it in horses little is. So it must be having a belief in your boy and doing everything you can to make it as successful as it can be. Good luck. I have bookmarked you page and will check back often
