Eloc looks like a quiet gorgeous prospect that I would love to ride. But there are many nice young tbs and wbs out there. A super show or competition record and or the stallion test approvals is what sets one apart to make me consider breeding my sport mare to it.
I think there are also markets in the paint, appy, qh, arab, and other breeds. I think the tb is accepted into their registries w/o special requirements.
[QUOTE=smm20;5401763]
I wonder if any of the existing European registries in the US have considered developing a Pure Thoroughbred book?
TB mare owners could continue to have their mares inspected for breeding to approved WB stallions - pure TB mares would actually receive dual approvals for both the regular registry books and the pure Thoroughbred books. Mare owners could then choose to breed to an approved WB stallion for one type of foal, or to an approved TB stallion for a TB foal.
TB stallion approvals would have to be somewhat flexible for the first few decades. For example, mare owners could petition for a temporary approval for a TB stallion based on pedigree or previous offspring. If granted, these temporary approvals would be good for say 2 years (and only for pure TB mares), after which time the quality of the resulting foals would be used to make a case for or against maintaining the approval for another 2 year period. This way inspectors could maintain a stated goal of producing pure TB horses of a sport type. Stallions with temporary approval who don’t produce this type would be removed from the gene pool. Eventually, with an increase in size of the book, the stallion approval process could be made more like the WB stallion approval process.
Foals would receive papers stating that they are registed within the studbook AND that they are pure TB even if the breeding was AI. High quality colts would be scored and considered for stallion approval following a more traditional process.
I would think that this type of book could be good for the European registry for at least two reasons: 1) the registry would be very attractive to TB mare owners and thus the registry would make $$, and 2) the registry could guide the breeding of future pure TB stallions that would be of useful type and bloodlines to the greater registry mare base.[/QUOTE]
I love this idea… I would like to see all TB brood mares pass an inspection but have some sort of “limited use” clause for TB stallions that are primarily marketed for race horses. Alphabet Soup’s owners never would have worried about presenting him for sport horse breeding use but he could have been a great player in the sport horse market around here.
If I win the powerball this week maybe I’ll be here soliciting people to help start a new registry for TB sport horses…
[QUOTE=JWB;6562682]
If I win the powerball this week maybe I’ll be here soliciting people to help start a new registry for TB sport horses…;)[/QUOTE]
Count us in!
I’ve faced the same dilemma - love the Tb. Hate the ‘breeding for racehorses’ thought process. And the American style sprinters don’t have the body type, movement or substance.
I bought my own stud. European lines, all distance runners and steeple chasers. Hoping to show him for a few years then if he proves himself, stand him at stud. I made the decision to buy him based on the fact that he wasn’t an American bloodlined horse and he’s a great mover with a fabulous temperament. And more and more people are looking to breed tb sporthorses. There just are not a lot of options. I would highly support a respected registry for full TB foals that allowed AI. It makes me insane that the JC doesn’t allow AI. It’s archaic.
Adagio, We only started breeding him this year. So, no foals on the ground yet. We are expecting atleast 1 foal in 2013. The Tb mare that was bred to him supposedly didn’t take, but they weren’t looking to register.
I do need to update our farm website and add/delete a bunch of stuff. I may end up doing a website just for him. As for special offers to breed to him, I offered the choice of AI with the mare owner paying for collection/shipment with no stud fee or booking fee. We will offer that in 2013 also.
His stud fee is $500. My biggest problem is getting good quality photographs of him while I’m riding him. I’m the photographer at our farm and have just started going to local H/J shows. I do plan to braid him up and get some great confirmation shots. As far as free jumping, that’s hard here bc we don’t really have anywhere to do it. No rails on our arena, but I’ll look at getting a decent video of him.
I do appreciate the help. I will also pass along suggestions to his owner also. He usually helps with expenses when needed.
I also need to get an official measure on him.
Again, thanks for the help. I am new to the H/J world.
To be quite honest I find it to be a bit silly that you have to cart your TB mare all over the countryside to produce foals. Not many people have that fat of a wallet.
The biggest argument I see against the approval of AI in the JC is that it would lead to the overproduction of stock. Last I checked there are already too many Thoroughbreds being bred on an annual basis. There are doubtlessly people breaking the LC rules as well out there. It is an archaic thought pattern, to say in the least. The big breeders with race farms also are fervently against it. I don’t see why they can’t ship semen and still charge the same stud fee?
I would love to see an alternate registry allowing for the registration of sport-horse type Thoroughbreds. Although I only have a gelding at this time I still see the potential to make this into something big. It could also be a flop and go belly up if not laid out intelligently.
I might be more inclined to purchase a Thoroughbred mare in the future. Sure, there are a ton of people crossing them onto Warmbloods. But what if I want a Thoroughbred? Just a Thoroughbred. No Warmblood breeding. There are a few nice TB stallions out there, AFR being on the top of my list for a sport type foal, but they are simply inaccessible for the average horse owner/small scale breeder. The shipping of a mare on top of all of the associated breeding costs would be astronomical. For example, I love Guaranteed Gold but I am in Texas. It is not feasible to send a mare up to Canada to be covered for most people. It is very annoying. It is hard to keep my mouth shut on this particular issue. I at least am glad for one thing. My ability to breed an Anglo-Arabian and achieve registration via AI.
We need a registry that is a separate entity for the growth of the Thoroughbred sport horse. Especially if AI continues to be vehemently banned by the JC. How to accomplish this is the question. There will be many stallion owners who won’t want to ‘board this ship’ but rather ‘sink it’.
So far it sounds like I just have to move to Australia to breed registerable sport Thoroughbreds. -grumble-
There are a few nice TB stallions out there, AFR being on the top of my list for a sport type foal, but they are simply inaccessible for the average horse owner/small scale breeder. The shipping of a mare on top of all of the associated breeding costs would be astronomical.
^^^^ agree 100%. There are several TB stallions I love but the need to ship my TB mare for a live cover (if its even offered) in order to get JC papers is definitely a major factor against a full TB breeding. I often dream of a Fred breeding but shipping Lily to Canada is not in the cards anytime soon much to my regret.
I would love to see a sport horse option for pure TB horses.
[QUOTE=Fourbeats;6564589]
^^^^ agree 100%. There are several TB stallions I love but the need to ship my TB mare for a live cover (if its even offered) in order to get JC papers is definitely a major factor against a full TB breeding. I often dream of a Fred breeding but shipping Lily to Canada is not in the cards anytime soon much to my regret.
I would love to see a sport horse option for pure TB horses.[/QUOTE]
Admittedly, I sold my TB mare for this reason. The JC lost me thanks to their policy on LC only. I could care less about breeding for racing stock. I simply wanted a sport horse as the mare was by Cahill Road and that bloodline seems to excel in that field. She surely was built to produce it too. Couldn’t afford the shipping to breed her to a top sport TB. Would love gelding incentives there too with such an association should it ever come into fruition. Sure wouldn’t hurt! I would love to see horses gelded and not stay intact simply because they are the son of a famous racehorse.
Another point I did not address is the fact that LC can be quite dangerous. It is an overlooked aspect that fails to be mentioned by the people against allowing AI. There are stallions who actually have to be euthanized because they got kicked while attempting to cover/court a mare. Obviously there are hobbles and boots but you never know.
[QUOTE=Fourbeats;6564589]
^^^^ agree 100%. There are several TB stallions I love but the need to ship my TB mare for a live cover (if its even offered) in order to get JC papers is definitely a major factor against a full TB breeding. I often dream of a Fred breeding but shipping Lily to Canada is not in the cards anytime soon much to my regret.
I would love to see a sport horse option for pure TB horses.[/QUOTE]
Thank you to Fourbeats and Fadjurneeka. The LC requirement for JC registration has been a stumbling block for mares who are at a distance. Financially it would be crippling, and I don’t like the idea of shipping mares/pregnant mares from TX or CA to Canada, even if it were affordable.
Many mare owners (like Renascence) have opted to forego JC registration because they wanted what they felt was the right stallion for their mare, and they wanted a sport TB.
Because AFR is also approved ISR/OldNA, if the mare is approved, the foal will get full ISR/Old NA registration. Lost from the JC registry, which is sad, but the important thing is that the bloodlines are being kept alive, and vital.
As others have said the JC has no interest in TBs for sport and no interest in registering TBs conceived by AI. I think it is shortsighted and a shame. They seem to have turned their back on the concept that their breed -our breed - is the repository of some of the most powerful and important genetics for athleticism and jumping ability…
Their arguement that it is ‘to protect the breed’ is ludicrous and illogical… and does not hold water - but we have discussed that earlier.
I too would be in support of a separate TB registry. I don’t think it would take a lot of money - just time, energy and a good computer.
I have a full TB stallion that I stand for my own use and have bred him to some outside mares live cover at a very reasonable stud fee. His oldest offspring that I have are now 3, so not really old enough to be doing anything yet. One filly will go to the FEH East Coast championships later this month.
Mt. Vidmore is from Mt. Livermore/Blushing Groom/Pleasant Colony lines. He does have one line back to Northern Dancer, but no Mr. P. He raced and won about $100k and has some full and half-siblings that have won $250k - $1 million, with a fair degree of longevity on the racetrack. He is 17.1 H, and leggy with a short back and very uphill build. His temperament is good enough that I took him foxhunting once last year on a lark. He has enough wear and tear that he would not hold up for a real performance career as a now teenager.
I got him because I like him as an individual and because he would be a good cross on my partbred Cleveland Bay mares to produce sporthorses. I didn’t have an expectation on a big outside return on my investment, so if there are mare owners who are interested in him, they need to come look in person.
It’s difficult to expect stallion owners like myself to invest lots of money in marketing a stallion like this when it’s unlikely to produce substantial income.
There is also a big challenge in marketing the pure TB youngsters. Most shoppers looking at young TBs, even purpose-bred for sport, would be unlikely to spend the same amount of money as on a warmblood cross, because they are always comparing the price against the seemingly endless pool of talented, nearly-free TBs coming off the track.
I also take offense at disparaging comments about “American bloodlined horse.” Lots of the “European” TBs that the same people would drool over have red, white and blue bloodlines! You can find them here!
I think it is a fashionable thing to say but the TB is an international breed. That’s why buyers from all over the world are in Kentucky this week to buy American bred horses. As for Europe, most of the successful runners have multiple crosses to Northern Dancer and a lot have Mr P somewhere in their pedigree as well.
The failed sprinter that someone can pick up cheap at Canter is not the whole enchilada of the American TB horse. It never has been (although a fast sprinter is a great thing)
I’m another one who would love to see a TB sport horse registry. Once I get some time, I will do some looking into what it would take to start one.
All the stallions I really like for my mares are spread throughout the US and Canada. Where I’m at, there really aren’t many/any options for TBs in general, much less good sport horse types.
A separate TB registry has been tried many times before. Every time it has flopped.
I rather like the idea of a reputable WB registry that is WBFSH (or whatever the correct acronym is) accepted opening a TB registry. After a few years, if it’s successful, it could be spun off and apply for WBFSH recognition. To me that seems like something the AWS or AWR could do. I’d much prefer the Traks, but it might be more than they could do and still keep their ties to the German Verband.
[QUOTE=Fadjurneeka;6564599]
Admittedly, I sold my TB mare for this reason. The JC lost me thanks to their policy on LC only. I could care less about breeding for racing stock. I simply wanted a sport horse as the mare was by Cahill Road and that bloodline seems to excel in that field. She surely was built to produce it too. Couldn’t afford the shipping to breed her to a top sport TB. Would love gelding incentives there too with such an association should it ever come into fruition. Sure wouldn’t hurt! I would love to see horses gelded and not stay intact simply because they are the son of a famous racehorse.
Another point I did not address is the fact that LC can be quite dangerous. It is an overlooked aspect that fails to be mentioned by the people against allowing AI. There are stallions who actually have to be euthanized because they got kicked while attempting to cover/court a mare. Obviously there are hobbles and boots but you never know.[/QUOTE]
Not on topic but Fadjurneeka - I HAVE a Cahill Road Broodmare I love!! Decided to cross with a WB - and presented her to the OLD/ISR book (she’s in) - love her Sir Wanabi filly who is QUITE TB looking.
Carry on !
Still wish we could get the IHF to include NA bred even if stallion NOT nominated, figure out a fee structure, and add to promotion and notice of a (omg - not possible) full TB hunter prospect.
If a new registry or group were to be created just for thoroughbred breeding, how would it be broken down? What would it’s goals be? To save bloodlines? To re-create a thoroughbred type suitable for each discipline?
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