Orchard Grass Hay for IR horse?

[lindseyjo11]

Anyone have an IR horse than can give me some insight? My gelding is 20, diagnosed with insulin resistance in 2017. He’s had laminitis flare ups 3 times, once in 2014, 2017, and this past Jan/Feb. He was out of exercise all of 2019 due to EPM (this horse can’t catch a break), and when I was going to bring him back into work early this year he foundered.

I live in Illinois and last year was a horrible year for hay. I usually get 1st cut alfalfa/grass mix. I only received 150 bales of that hay that was very stemmy and cut late. I then purchased 250 bale of alfalfa/grass mix of 2nd cut. I did test and the NSC was around 10% for the 2nd cut, but it seemed very rich. I started only feeding the 2nd cut in October/November. Once he foundered I chalked it up to too much protein in the 2nd cut, and with advice from my vet started mixing with 1st cut. He started feeling better, but refused to eat the 1st cut and lost weight. I had no choice but to go back to the 2nd cut in April because there is no hay from last year due to the excessive rain we had.

The farmer I get from says he should have straight orchard grass as 1st cut this year. I have NEVER bought anything except alfalfa/orchard grass mix, but I feel that this may be better for him.

Anyone else with an IR horse feed straight orchard grass hay with success? I can’t test until I buy, and I can only afford to buy once. It is also impossible to soak in the winter for us as our barn is not heated, nor do we have any stalls so both of my horses have to share hay.

I also feed him triple crown lite to make sure he gets the vitamins he needs, and he’s done well on it. During the summer he’s turned out at night with a grazing muzzle for 10-12 hours and has yet to founder on pasture. He’s not over weight like most IR horses, he’s definitely on the thinner side.

[goodhors]

Something to consider, is to buy the hay, test, sell it if the numbers do not make you happy. Start checking around now now, to locate another hay source should you need it.

[lindseyjo11]

@goodhors

Something to consider, is to buy the hay, test, sell it if the numbers do not make you happy. Start checking around now now, to locate another hay source should you need it.

Yes, that has crossed my mind. But I should say I’m in a rural area, so it’s limited on what and where I can buy, which is why I was hoping someone could give me insight on if this hay worked for them or not, or if I’d be better sticking to the alfalfa/orchard grass mix rather than going to straight orchard grass hay.

I also only have a hay loft to store hay. So reselling would mean throwing 300+ bales into the hay loft just to throw them back out assuming I find someone to buy and I only have so much storage

I also do understand you never really know until you test, and it all depends on when it was cut, etc. I just need an idea if it’ll be okay or not

[lenapesadie]

I believe in general, orchard is higher nsc than alfalfa. So many variables though

[horsepoor]

I have fed straight orchard grass to my IR/EMS horse in the past with good results. Tested low NSC, or when we couldn’t find low enough, we did soak, but doing that in winter will make you move heaven and earth to find hay that tests low. I don’t do alfalfa at all so my choices are usually orchard grass, timothy, or teff, but orchard is a lot easier to find here. I no longer have the IR horse but do have some super easy keepers (haflinger and welsh cob) so I still test and try to stick to <10% NSC and around 10% protein and that has done well for my current crew. Fortunately I am buying from a grower who tests all the hay they produce so I know the numbers ahead of time.

[lindseyjo11]

I do not worry about the sugar so much in alfalfa because it is generally lower, but the protein is higher and from my understanding that can cause problems with glucose in IR horses. Both of my horses are seniors, and aren’t in any kind of hard work so they probably don’t need the extra calories of alfalfa. The farmer I buy from did tell me that one field has way too much alfalfa for his liking this year, and I’m thinking that’s the field I got my 2nd cut from last year.

That makes me feel better that you were able to feed orchard grass hay without problems! I wish I could find someone that test around here, but no one does unfortunately.

[IPEsq]

If the orchard doesn’t test high, it should be ok. Can you get brome?

If he’s a harder keeper why not switch from the TC Lite to Senior?

[lindseyjo11]

@IPEsq

If the orchard doesn’t test high, it should be ok. Can you get brome?

If he’s a harder keeper why not switch from the TC Lite to Senior?

I’m only able to test after I buy it, so that’s why I’m trying to get some ideas before I purchase it.

He’s really not a hard keeper. He used to be overweight, but has really thinned out from thyro-L and exercise. He’s on the thin side now, per the vets recommendation for him. He only lost weight when he refused to eat the 1st cut hay, which he’s now gained back. I moved him from TC low starch to the lite because he’s only on about 3-4 lbs of grain a day and maintains his weight fine all year long.

I’ll never be able to exercise him like I used to because he never recovered 100% from EPM. The extend of our rides are walk, trot bareback around our property, or lunging.

[DinkyDonk]

Soaking is possible in the winter if you have electric outlets in your barn…soak in the largest picnic cooler you can find that has wheels. Use a flat concrete paver to keep the hay (in a hay net) submerged, and place a bird bath heater on top of the paver (250 watt) to keep the water from freezing. Cut the bottoms out of 2 cheapo 5 gallon buckets, put in a 2 wheeled wheelbarrow (I use a Rubbermaid garden cart with flat free tires), and set hay net on top of the 2 buckets to drain. If it’s really cold out (single digit temps or lower) pour a 5 gallon bucket of hot water over the net after initial draining (bucket heaters are your friend). You can then take the 2 buckets out of the wheelbarrow, and wheel it outside to dump. I’m in WY, and had to do this all winter for my PPID/IR hinny. I’ve now found low sugar/starch teff hay, and bought enough to get me through the next year,

[lindseyjo11]

@DinkyDonk

Soaking is possible in the winter if you have electric outlets in your barn…soak in the largest picnic cooler you can find that has wheels. Use a flat concrete paver to keep the hay (in a hay net) submerged, and place a bird bath heater on top of the paver (250 watt) to keep the water from freezing. Cut the bottoms out of 2 cheapo 5 gallon buckets, put in a 2 wheeled wheelbarrow (I use a Rubbermaid garden cart with flat free tires), and set hay net on top of the 2 buckets to drain. If it’s really cold out (single digit temps or lower) pour a 5 gallon bucket of hot water over the net after initial draining (bucket heaters are your friend). You can then take the 2 buckets out of the wheelbarrow, and wheel it outside to dump. I’m in WY, and had to do this all winter for my PPID/IR hinny. I’ve now found low sugar/starch teff hay, and bought enough to get me through the next year,

Thanks! That’s an idea if it comes down to it. We do have electric added into our barn. We have to carry buckets all winter long because the barn is far from my house and our barn doesn’t have its own water source, so I’m really hoping whatever hay we get test okay! I just don’t know if I should take my chances on the straight grass hay or to do the alfalfa/grass mix.

[buck22]

Unfortunately its impossible to guess if the 1st cut orchard will be lower in NSC than the o/a. There are so many variables that contribute to the sugar content of a blade of grass that its impossible to tell without testing.

In a nutshell however: Grass is a sugar farm.

When the sun shines, grass makes sugar. The harder the sun shines, the more sugar it makes.

When the sun goes down, it spends the sugar by converting into energy for growth. When grass is stressed (drought, cold) it doesn’t spend its sugar, it holds onto it and waits for better conditions.

If you ever noticed the grass grew tall almost overnight, that’s because it did. It waits for the best conditions for growth and then spends all its sugar.

If the hay was made during a stressful time for grass (drought, cold nights), or was cut late in the day after it had all day in the sunshine making sugar, it will most likely be higher in sugar than normal.

If your nights have been warm, the grass has been growing like crazy (grass is spending its sugar), and the farmer cut the field in the morning, or on a cloudy day, it’s probably lower in sugar than normal.

If all you can do is take your best guess on what to buy, then make the best possible guess by asking the farmer a ton of questions first.

[walkinthewalk]

My IR horses (there were two but one passed in 2014) have never eaten anything but Orchard/grass mix, except for the time we were in an exceptional drought and had to buy bad Teff hay out of Oklahoma. By bad I mean moldy and I,threw half of it out.

My orchard/grass mix is locally grown. I have it tested every year and every year it comes back at some range of 8% NSC.

My current IR severely foundered in 2012, and again in 2015. He has been in remission since the end of 2015. I have really stripped his diet back to the bare bones.

He was also diagnosed Cushings in October, 2019 so the doll face is now on 1/2 mg Prascend daily. I was finally able to get the vet out last week (thank you Covid19:( to draw blood. I should know those insulin & glucose results this week.

This horse has been going on pasture, without a muzzle since May, 2015 - after the mild founder. He is on pasture from about 9:30 AM until dusk, whatever time that is throughout the year.

To reiterate, I have skinned his diet back to where he only gets one cup of straight Timothy pellets to mix his supplements in, twice daily. His

His condensed vit/min supplement Is soy-free and there is NO added iron.

He gets other supplements as well but the kicker that I discovered by accident that really seems to,help,him is the human L-Citrulline. Google it as it is used for human Type II diabetes. There are credible human studies but ImcNt find anything credible for horses.

My comments are strictly anecdotal. I know it works, my certified therapeutic farrier THINKS it is doing something. But I am nothing more than a 60 years of horse ownership, back yard trailer rider with no formal “bio” type education, therefore I don’t know anything:)

There is more to the story as I have been feeding this horse citrulline via watermelon initially since the last half of 2015 - the year he las had a laminitis issue. But the traditional medical naysayers will likely hang me out to dry, with this much said. I will quit right here so I don’t lose my patience with them and get banned:)

[lindseyjo11]

@buck22

Unfortunately its impossible to guess if the 1st cut orchard will be lower in NSC than the o/a. There are so many variables that contribute to the sugar content of a blade of grass that its impossible to tell without testing.

In a nutshell however: Grass is a sugar farm.

When the sun shines, grass makes sugar. The harder the sun shines, the more sugar it makes.

When the sun goes down, it spends the sugar by converting into energy for growth. When grass is stressed (drought, cold) it doesn’t spend its sugar, it holds onto it and waits for better conditions.

If you ever noticed the grass grew tall almost overnight, that’s because it did. It waits for the best conditions for growth and then spends all its sugar.

If the hay was made during a stressful time for grass (drought, cold nights), or was cut late in the day after it had all day in the sunshine making sugar, it will most likely be higher in sugar than normal.

If your nights have been warm, the grass has been growing like crazy (grass is spending its sugar), and the farmer cut the field in the morning, or on a cloudy day, it’s probably lower in sugar than normal.

If all you can do is take your best guess on what to buy, then make the best possible guess by asking the farmer a ton of questions first.

Thank you! I’m so nervous to buy hay this year. Grass being a sugar farm is exactly why I’m nervous to go to a straight grass hay, but considering he had an episode of laminitis this year from what I believe to be too much protein caused by the alfalfa I’m at such a loss. Of course the laminitis episode could be completely unrelated to the alfalfa and more from lack of exercise too, I’ll never know.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

@lindseyjo11

Grass being a sugar farm is exactly why I’m nervous to go to a straight grass hay, but considering he had an episode of laminitis this year from what I believe to be too much protein caused by the alfalfa I’m at such a loss.

It’s not the protein…
Alfalfa is often treated with proprionic acid to prevent leaf shatter. When digested, proprionic acid triggers a glucose spike that can be dangerous for horses with metabolic problems.

[Snowdenfarm]

I have had three IR horses, so I have been buying stemmy, overly mature, first cutting orchard grass from the same farmer for 12 years. I quit testing a few years ago as it was always under 10% combined ESC and starch (usually around 5% total). I tested the second cutting which was not stemmy or overly mature once. It came back around 8.5% combined. My horses loved it, but that was too close for comfort for me, so I have stayed with the overly mature first cutting hay. I have found the overly mature hay to be low in protein so I supplement protein Tri-Amino or Nutramino along with Cal Trace or K.I.S. Trace minerals. Caveat: Not all orchard grass hay is the same, but overly mature grass hay tends to have less sugar.

The Dairy One lab at Cornell has put together average test reports for hays based on type, location and month/year of cutting. I put my info in and it came back at 6.6% which is darn close.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/feed-composition-library/interactive-feed-composition-libraries/

[rubygirl1968]

The only way to know is test the hay, but the 2nd cut orchard my barn gets has always tested well below 10 NSC.

It could change but so far so good for us.

[lindseyjo11]

@Melissa.Van Doren

It’s not the protein…
Alfalfa is often treated with proprionic acid to prevent leaf shatter. When digested, proprionic acid triggers a glucose spike that can be dangerous for horses with metabolic problems.

I have heard that as well! But he’s always had some kind of alfalfa hay in his diet from this same farmer, so that’s why I thought the protein as unused protein can cause glucose spikes as well, from my research anyway. The 2nd cut hay I received last year had much more alfalfa than normal, and after calling the farmer yesterday he told me that one field had way too much alfalfa for his liking. The field was also newly seeded last year.

Maybe it was what was sprayed, maybe protein, maybe lack of exercise in the winter. I don’t know and I’ll probably never know, I’m just hoping it can be avoided this year!

https://gettyequinenutrition.com/pages/alfalfa-and-the-insulin-resistant-horse-the-true-story

I actually read this article that explained both reasons why alfalfa can cause problems!

[lindseyjo11]

@Snowdenfarm

I have had three IR horses, so I have been buying stemmy, overly mature, first cutting orchard grass from the same farmer for 12 years. I quit testing a few years ago as it was always under 10% combined ESC and starch (usually around 5% total). I tested the second cutting which was not stemmy or overly mature once. It came back around 8.5% combined. My horses loved it, but that was too close for comfort for me, so I have stayed with the overly mature first cutting hay. I have found the overly mature hay to be low in protein so I supplement protein Tri-Amino or Nutramino along with Cal Trace or K.I.S. Trace minerals. Caveat: Not all orchard grass hay is the same, but overly mature grass hay tends to have less sugar.

The Dairy One lab at Cornell has put together average test reports for hays based on type, location and month/year of cutting. I put my info in and it came back at 6.6% which is darn close.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/feed-composition-library/interactive-feed-composition-libraries/

Do you have any problems with your horses eating the overly mature hay? I had first cut last year that was overly mature and they completely refused once it wasn’t “fresh” cut hay anymore. It was to the point they were leaving full, untouched slices in the hay feeders. ESC and starch was only 3.2%. WSC and starch was 5.4%.

[NaturallyHappy]

@walkinthewalk

My IR horses (there were two but one passed in 2014) have never eaten anything but Orchard/grass mix, except for the time we were in an exceptional drought and had to buy bad Teff hay out of Oklahoma. By bad I mean moldy and I,threw half of it out.

My orchard/grass mix is locally grown. I have it tested every year and every year it comes back at some range of 8% NSC.

My current IR severely foundered in 2012, and again in 2015. He has been in remission since the end of 2015. I have really stripped his diet back to the bare bones.

He was also diagnosed Cushings in October, 2019 so the doll face is now on 1/2 mg Prascend daily. I was finally able to get the vet out last week (thank you Covid19:( to draw blood. I should know those insulin & glucose results this week.

This horse has been going on pasture, without a muzzle since May, 2015 - after the mild founder. He is on pasture from about 9:30 AM until dusk, whatever time that is throughout the year.

To reiterate, I have skinned his diet back to where he only gets one cup of straight Timothy pellets to mix his supplements in, twice daily. His

His condensed vit/min supplement Is soy-free and there is NO added iron.

He gets other supplements as well but the kicker that I discovered by accident that really seems to,help,him is the human L-Citrulline. Google it as it is used for human Type II diabetes. There are credible human studies but ImcNt find anything credible for horses.

My comments are strictly anecdotal. I know it works, my certified therapeutic farrier THINKS it is doing something. But I am nothing more than a 60 years of horse ownership, back yard trailer rider with no formal “bio” type education, therefore I don’t know anything:)

There is more to the story as I have been feeding this horse citrulline via watermelon initially since the last half of 2015 - the year he las had a laminitis issue. But the traditional medical naysayers will likely hang me out to dry, with this much said. I will quit right here so I don’t lose my patience with them and get banned:)

Can you talk more about the citrulline? If you’d rather PM me, go ahead. I’m really interested. Thank you.

[Snowdenfarm]

@lindseyjo11

Do you have any problems with your horses eating the overly mature hay? I had first cut last year that was overly mature and they completely refused once it wasn’t “fresh” cut hay anymore. It was to the point they were leaving full, untouched slices in the hay feeders. ESC and starch was only 3.2%. WSC and starch was 5.4%.

Only until they got hungry enough, hahaha. Seriously, they don’t turn their noses up for long if there is nothing else available. Right now, my mare is back home after being in FL on hay that I could not test but must have been high sugar as she acted like it was cotton candy. Now that we are back, I am using up the last few bales I had of 2018 first cutting and she made the switch without any pickiness. She has been on this hay for three years (except when in FL). She is dry lotted right now, so it is that or starve. She gets free choice (about 20 lbs) of that hay, 5 lbs of Triple Crown Balanced Timothy Cubes and supps to balance out the old hay. Her ribs are covered, her coat is shiny and her hooves are perfect – so I am happy.