OTTB Chestnut Mare input

[punchy]

Ottbs are usually good at flying changes—the trick is keeping them balanced and comfortable enough to stay on the same, correct lead.

I wouldn’t do more then some walking at this point. If she’s so bored, as you suspect, then make it interesting for her by teaching her useful, small, stress-free things. It sounds like you are anxious to get back into riding, but this isn’t the horse to get that heavy duty, cardio-ride out of your system on. This is the slow-teaching-horse-zen-ride. If you don’t have the patience for that, get thee on a different animal.

[Scribbler]

@Imperatrixferox

The owner is the person who invited me to ride her & it isn’t her first OTTB. She’s never had anything negative to say about what I’m doing/how I’m experimenting and has been out i believe every time I’ve been on the horse. Actually she thinks the horse is just not wholly out of “race mode” under saddle and is bored. It’s not out of believability, mare gets excited (for lack of a better word) coming up on the long side of the arena. So, that is one of the things i am also mulling over. Anyway, I’m not wholly unchaperoned per se. Backing off further into just round pen work is looking like a good option though.

Just because the owner has had multiple OTTB doesn’t make her automatically a good perceptive horse person. Lots of people restart cheap OTTB * very very badly*. Just because the owner thinks you are doing everything OK doesn’t mean you really are. Or that they are a good mentor to learn from.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Imperatrixferox

Actually she thinks the horse is just not wholly out of “race mode” under saddle and is bored. It’s not out of believability, mare gets excited (for lack of a better word) coming up on the long side of the arena.

This horse screams pain as has been pointed out by several very (VERY) experienced COTH members. Interpreting pain and/or stress behavior as “boredom” or “being a pissy mare” leads to a really inaccurate and detrimental mindset. Crow hopping, twisting, bolting, violently spooking, getting worse with round penning, blowing up over walk/trot transitions, etc. are not normal behaviors for a horse being worked lightly a few days a week. The fact that the owner is comfortable leasing out a horse demonstrating this behavior to a re-rider who has now been dumped multiple times is a red flag for a generally unsafe situation without consideration for horse or rider.

Training insight for a green OTTB differs significantly from how to gently rehab a horse who has experienced pain to the degree of violently acting out under saddle. The fact that this mare sounds quietly for mounting speaks to her character and I hope she ends up somewhere where she’s believed before she gets labeled as “dangerous” or gets seen as an empty uterus and is bred without consideration for her discomfort.

[RAyers]

FIRST: Horses off the track are WELL TRAINED IN ALL 3 GAITS! It’s not like H/J folks or dressage folks have some magic idea, so let’s kill that misconception now. Me and many others who buy and train OTTBs can basically hop on and work them like any other horse with little to no time off. Concepts like this are worse for the breed and their training than almost physical abuse. Yes, there are just as many bad trainers at the tracks as there are in H/J land, so let’s work to actually understand other disciplines.

SECOND: Has the horse had a full veterinary examination? It is better to rule out any medical condition than just guessing. If there is no medical issue then you have a path that points towards training.

Also examine diet. On the track many horse get a calorie dense diet and the horse’s biology and physiology needs time to adapt to a newer diet. And sometimes they get loony during this period.

THIRD: Some of this does sound like too much “control” is being used in the training. OTTBs are genetically geared to run. The more a rider tries to contain them the more reactive they get. It takes a very steady and finessed hand to help an OTTB figure out a new job while still letting them get their genetic Ya Yas out!

[dmveventer]

@GraceLikeRain

The fact that the owner is comfortable leasing out a horse demonstrating this behavior to a re-rider who has now been dumped multiple times is a red flag for a generally unsafe situation without consideration for horse or rider.

This was my thought, plus the fact that the owner let the horse go from sitting in a field for 2 years to being ridden once a week by someone coming off a 20 year break to being “restarted” by someone that’s never done this before. This situation isn’t fair to anyone involved except the owner, who now has someone paying her for the privilege of getting thrown off this horse. OP is going to get seriously hurt and the horse is already developing training problems that will undermine her value and could easily land her in a bad situation down the road.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@RAyers

SECOND: Has the horse had a full veterinary examination? It is better to rule out any medical condition than just guessing. If there is no medical issue then you have a path that points towards training.

This. If the owner isn’t willing to get the vet to check her out, you really can’t continue to lease this horse with a clear conscience, because you don’t know if all the behaviors you’re trying to correct are physical or training related.

Once you’ve ruled out the physical, however, it sounds like you’ve been putting way too much pressure on her, way too soon, and really over-stimulating her. Not that OTTBs need to be treated like babies, but just from the list of all the different things you’ve been doing and the length of the rides, it does sound like things have been rushed and you haven’t really yet built a relationship. Even if she’s not in pain now, she may have been ridden when in pain before and has bad associations with it.

Do you now why she was retired from the track? Did she have any physical issues at the end of her career?

[Imperatrixferox]

I have ended before objection probably 80% of time. That’s a big question mark I run into. Let’s say she’s saying “I’m over it” 20 minutes in-- my hesitation comes from “do I keep going to prevent her from thinking this will always work?” Or, “do I stop so I’m not risking a sour horse?” I feel her personality is kind of like putting together a puzzle. I brought it up with the owner and she thifinks it’s more a her (mare) being obstinate thing. She was in heat one time and I brought up whether she was having equine PMS discomfort and the owner said no, just try putting her in the round pen. Which actually worked, she snapped out of it. Full disclosure, owner has never ridden her.

[endlessclimb]

Dude, just WALK for awhile. Let her learn to chill and not hate being ridden by you, while fitting up.

What’s your huge rush? Just your descriptors are making me cringe - like she’s doing this on purpose or out of spite.

Frankly, I do not think this is a good match for you.

[ThreeWishes]

Agreed. I’m of the opinion that MOST horses are not trying to be naughty or devise ways to be lazy and not do what you ask. They’re simply communicating something. Usually pain, or pressure or anxiety and inappropriate training for their ability and fitness. The push them through to train them to be amenable rarely works. She’s shouting her needs in the only language she has and no one is hearing.

[endlessclimb]

Your job, as a rider, particularly of a fussy/sensitive animal, is to DIFFUSE a situation. Not escalate it. You are to stay calm, always. You are to try and understand why the horse is not able or willing to attempt what you’re asking.

Good training looks boring, not like a rodeo.

I’m not saying there won’t be a moment here and there that gets hairy. But overall, it should be cool-calm-collected. Any fireworks should be SHORT and RARE.

The people who turn up the heat when a horse says “eh” should stick with other breeds, because barring almost killing them a thoroughbred has the stamina to make you regret cranking up the volume of a demand. (ie, the times you’ve been “bucked off” were likely 100% your fault)

[RAyers]

Your response right here suggests you are not very experienced in training horses. One can not sour a horse if you are truly paying attention and ending things BEFORE a horse ever says, “I’m over it.” The concept of pushing through obstinance is an old dictate from a different form of training where dominance is asserted over partnership. Yes, we can push through those at times but the rider/trainer needs to be aware and educated enough to recognize when it is appropriate and when it just creates more problems.

Right now it sounds like the owner and you are unable (unwilling?) to stand up to advocate for the animal.

The idea in creating a confident, well trained horse is that you are supposed to be a intelligent, educated, aware rider who knows what they are asking a horse, giving clear and simple instructions to a horse, then ending before you EVER reach a point of a horse becoming resistant. If, as you say, the owner has never ridden the animal, then why are you listening to their training advice? They have no real concept of what is happening and it sounds that they have no real empathy to the animal and how it responds to situations.

Your posts are doing you and the owner no favors in terms of giving context to the situation other than you are attempting to bully the horse into submission without giving it any benefit of the doubt as to what is really happening or giving the horse credit for trying to do what is asked.

[Imperatrixferox]

We do a lot of walking…a lot. One of her very early habits (has lessened) was trying to break into the faster gait that was bring asked for. The meltdown has occurred walking (preceeded by throwing head up, pricked ears and speed up attempts). I didn’t mean to imply that it was the result of acting lazy. It’s definitely not the case. I regularly get the owner’s input, and her opinion is it is more an attitude thing and not really understanding “slow.” That is why i am looking for some different opinions, thank you for your input.

[endlessclimb]

Whoosh, over your head it goes.

Walk. Only. For the next month. Work on turning and yielding off the leg. Work on a relationship that isn’t adversarial. Work on lots of “good girls” and having a whole ride where there wasn’t a single contrarian moment.

[Simkie]

@Imperatrixferox

We do a lot of walking…a lot.

You’ve ridden her 15 times. You have not done a lot of walking.

Frankly, I’d stop riding her at all. HAND WALK for several weeks. Let her build the fitness to carry you at all. Once you can actually see a change in her top line, sit on her. And ride her at the walk.

What you’re doing now is how you ruin a horse. I’m sorry to be so blunt. You’re being so unkind to her by asking entirely too much.

[Imperatrixferox]

I dont think you’re getting the best picture here. The attempt is being made to de-escalate, and I am (if I do say do myself) a calm rider. I have previously been asked to ride fussy horses for that reason. The truly explosive fireworks are rare, hence request for opinions. If i made it sound like a daily or weekly thing it isn’t. I am attempting to make them more rare, though thats also a subjective term. Hence request for opinions.

[ThreeWishes]

A horse off the track is generally a well trained regimented animal. Especially one that raced as long as she did and wasn’t a wash out immediately. But she sat. For whatever reason. There is a reason.
And now she’s being asked to perform like the horse she was in full fitness and training and IT IS NOT WORKING. Instead of thinking she’s being obstinate please please hear her. Make sure she’s not in pain. Then if it is a training issue find a different path. 15-20 rides mean very different things when you see what they entail. You aren’t restarting a hot spicy fit in work thoroughbred. You are restarting a horse that has been out of work and happens to have been the previous. You’re pushing too fast.

[RAyers]

Right here tells me you are not even closely connected to understanding the horse. This explains the original post and subsequent responses.

Walking is not just “walking.” The goal is not to contain the horse to the walk.

For example, if I have one that gets jiggly and resistant to the walk I will let them trot. I want them to know that they are NOT trapped by my hands. And if they seek the canter I let them go up there as well. All the while I stay quiet and patient, doing all I can with my body and legs to get them to relax and breathe out into a downward transition. This means I make sure my legs are NOT clamped, my hands are not rigid or arms locked, my voice is quiet and low.

And PATIENCE. The patience of job. I wait them out. Yes, if the situation is unsafe I have to become demanding, but also realize it can have the unintended consequence I will end up in the dirt. But then I immediately go back to reward and quiet interaction. They did nothing wrong other than being a horse. Then I start over. Day after day, week after week. And all they while I do tons of walking exercises that engage the muscles and mind. Lateral work, trail riding, cavaletti, and the trail course you say you have. All the while encouraging the walk but NOT demanding.

[Imperatrixferox]

What I meant was that under saddle sessions include 50% walking/stopping. At lesst. She has been ridden prior to me, though I am not sure how many times. It isn’t a total of 15 non-racing rides in her life. The owner (30+ years experience) is happy to have someone ride her, and as been mentioned been present for almost every ride. I am pretty sure if I were doing anything that awful she would say something. I feel like a broken record on this one, but the owner herself feels its her working through a mental redirect.

[endlessclimb]

Whoosh again.

I’m done, you’re not here for opinions. But let me point out that I’m not pulling things from thin air…

@Imperatrixferox

She has been off the track 2 years

She’s UNFIT.

@Imperatrixferox

the 15 or so rides I’ve got on her

You’ve ridden her 15 times or so.

@Imperatrixferox

She does get very strong at the canter, but is learning she has 3 gaits other than gallop

… at all 3 gaits.

@Imperatrixferox

She’s also been invested in fake spooking lately.

You can’t possibly understand how a stressed horse has a shorter fuse about stuff than a not-stressed one.

@Imperatrixferox

I’m working on figuring out her reaction reasons and how far to push her so she understands she isn’t the decision maker.

You think this is a domination thing, not a partnership.

@Imperatrixferox

I am partially convinced it’s just that she’s pissy about being ridden

You’re more than partially convinced, you’re already there.

@Imperatrixferox

But is 100% positive riding is a democracy.

Riding is a democracy. Full stop.

@Imperatrixferox

she does blow up & pitch me

You know most people go years between being whooped off, right?

[Blugal]

@Imperatrixferox reading all the responses here, you may identify with this scenario:

You have a lot of experience from 20 years ago. Now, you are trying to apply that to a new situation. But you are 20 years older, perhaps not bouncing as much as you used to. And the things you are trying aren’t really working. You turned to COTH for some ideas, but instead of people agreeing with your view of the situation, they have been blunt and even harsh.

Can you ask yourself, “What is really blocking me?”

I suspect it may be a combination of: you feel out of control. You are not having success in predicting this horse’s reactions. You are fearful of the horse’s reactions, because she is dumping you. And when she shuts down, you suspect that might lead to explosions on her part. You may be somewhat embarassed that your attempts so far have not been successful, given your experience, but that emotion is being covered up by you saying that the horse is pissy, stubborn, etc.

I have been this person. I have taught this person. I used to think I was a “gelding” person - for decades. Then I got hurt and scared by a couple sensitive geldings. I started to doubt my previous education, which was all about controlling the horse, the horse “listening” to me (and I was quite successful competitively with this mindset). Then I got more educated - expanding my reading, getting lessons from different instructors, learning from horsemen on youtube.

And… now I’ve had two mares in a row. They both had good temperaments, but they are sensitive. They need understanding. Example: the first mare arrived after a long transport journey and I gave her a day to acclimatise. The next day I put her in cross-ties and started grooming her, a good way to get to know her. I reached to her udder to see if it was clean. She cow-kicked at me, I smacked her, she pulled back and broke the cross-ties. Who was at fault? Once we knew each other, she loved me cleaning her udder - it got itchy. But when she didn’t know me, she was protective and I didn’t respect that. I didn’t give her time to trust me first.

Both mares are very observant, and when trail riding, they will stop if they see something even miles away in the distance. My old self would ask, then kick them to move forward, “sorry I’m the boss of this ride, get going.” My new self gives some of the decision-making to my horse. “Oh, you see a car moving way over there. No big deal - are you ready to keep going?” or, more importantly, “Hmm - I wonder if there is a deer or coyote just out of sight? Let me wait until you feel confident to keep going.” Kicking them forward at that point would lead to them feeling anxious, they haven’t properly decided whether there is a threat, and I’m now pushing them to my agenda.

Of course, I don’t want my horse ignoring me. But equally, they don’t want me ignoring them. The first mare started kicking out in canter, which was out of character. After 2 different vets checked her and said she was fine physically, and doing a course of ulcer treatment (the expensive one), she was getting worse. I was told to see what a top trainer thought - maybe it was behavioural. I tried the exercises they gave, but she would be erratic - sometimes better, sometimes worse. I kept thinking, this is not her. She usually wants to work, she isn’t temperamental normally. Finally I took her to a specialist vet who took quite a while to diagnose. Finally he guessed at a potential issue, did an internal ultrasound, and found she had advanced arthritis underneath her pelvis. She was only 8 and had never been lame. But she had been trying to tell me that she was in pain!!

The last time I regressed to my “old” way of riding, with my current horse I ignored her reacting to a person hidden in the bushes, decided I could ride through it, and pushed her to the point that she exploded. I paid for it - broke my wrist. That was a huge lesson: “Blugal, you are over 40 now, not 18. If you do stupid things you get stupid consequences. Next time, listen to your inner voice of reason!”

So, I’m enjoying this new outlook and have been having lots of fun. My mare has really blossomed and is very rewarding. Good luck to you, I hope you can work through this puzzle and find things that work for you and for this horse.