It is clear this owner has no idea how to retrain OTTBs even with 30+ years of experience with other horses. And you are following their advice.
Even with my 40+ years of experience I can tell you I know that the things I do on OTTBs does NOT translate to other breeds or even other TBs with different backgrounds.
You are not listening to the conversation here. You are reacting to posts. I suspect this is how you are riding the mare.
I’m going to have to disagree with some of what you’re saying, though mostly the impression you’re getting. I ride her on a rein that has visible slack, in the roundpen we can get to pretty much “no hands.” The fireworks typically occur at very overzealous upward transitions and being checked hard because we are nearing other people. I realize i didn’t include that descrption. As far as your input on what should be worked on and how it should be done I completely agree.
Yes, it’s clear the owner is also being unkind to this horse, with little understanding of how to manage an unfit, green horse.
Every step here, you’re blaming the horse. The horse is not the problem.
You can step up, and learn, and accept that you’ve made a pretty grevious misstep with this poor mare. You can attempt to right the ship by dialing waaaaaay back.
Or you can not. And if you choose to not, you should really step away, because you don’t have the skills for this situation, and you’re not interested in learning them.
It’s very possible to have 30 years experience and not learn anything at all. I recently saw a Facebook comment from someone with “30 years experience” who was ridiculing a friend for calling a vet over a laceration. Over a joint. That ended up having to be flushed under general anesthesia.
Riding a loose rein is NOT training. That is bumping along.
This suggests the moment you pick up the rein you are locked up and conveying tension to the mare along the lines what blugal just said.
Now I understand more about the situation. It sounds more like you need to softener the arm, wrist, and hand, seek connection to the bit with no tension (think lifting full cups of bone China without spilling a drop) while keeping a soft leg (calf) at their sides to give them input and direction.
They need to hear you above all else and trust you more than anything around them. Your conversation with them has to be more interesting to them than anything else in the room.
You are clearly not doing that and the mare is confused and only does what she knows to do because she is abandoned.
Last comment. If someone speaks French. Yelling louder in English does not work. She’s telling you something. Your job is to hear and be patient and teach. She’s screaming something. I understand she’s not your horse but if you intend to continue you need to stop thinking that just because her owner who doesn’t ride and has never ridden her approves is a seal of approval. I’m sure you want what’s best for her but what you’re doing is not working. Turning up the volume to a creature that is not speaking YOUR language is futile.
Do you have ANY IDEA how much STRENGTH it takes to have a nice, controlled, balanced upward transition?
Everything you’re complaining about here comes down to fitness. It’s so gross how you think it’s just the horse being bad.
Indeed. My mom’s older horse will spook at things he’s seen a million times before if his hocks are sore. Someone looking at him from the outside might think they’re “fake” spooks because what reason could he possibly have to spook in his normal environment?
Once he’s been injected, he stops spooking. Every time.
We figure that when his joints are sore, he’s more on edge and feels like he’s more vulnerable to attack, and therefore spooks at the slightest provocation.
Sorry, OP, I know this is starting to feel like a pile-on… but you are getting really good insight here.
I’m chiming in about “fake spooking” – a concept that absolutely grinds my gears. Horses’ minds don’t work this way – really, people’s minds don’t either. I didn’t come up with this but it’s a great analogy: Imagine you are at home alone on a spooky windy night, and you start hearing strange noises. You go into the kitchen to see what’s going on, and the lights go out. You accidentally bump into your kitchen table, and let out a scream. Are you “fake spooking” – I mean, that table’s been there forever and it’s never made you scream before…? Now, imagine if someone you trust punishes you for this behaviour.
A horse that “fake spooks” is telling you in the only way they can that they are overwhelmed – mentally, emotionally, and/or physically. It’s our job as empathetic trainers to know this, recognize it, and respond by scaling way back.
Why isn’t the owner riding her? Again, was there a previous injury that resulted in her being retired from riding? Was she vetted after coming off the track 2 years ago and when has she last seen a vet?
ETA: I agree with @ParadoxFarm below that it sounds like she’s using the OP as something of a crash test dummy on a horse she’s not willing to get on herself, and having the OP pay for this in the process. I don’t have the experience of the people in this thread who have restarted OTTBs, but the owner’s comments about how the mare still thinks she’s racing when she is going on the arena straightaway had me rolling my eyes, frankly (all horses will slow down when turning and speed up going straight, in general, and that sounds more like a balance/strength issue if it’s really noticeable).
I forgot to say, I got my current mare directly off the track at 3 years old in July. She was very unbalanced, and could barely turn right. I had her checked physically, nothing came up. Due to my boarding situation, I just started lightly working her, as she was already fit for racing. But she wasn’t fit for carrying me, significantly heavier than an exercise rider. So I kept it pretty light, mixed up days doing groundwork, practicing standing still for getting on, a little lunging, and would ride for 20 minutes to start. I started dressage lessons after 2 months and we didn’t do any canter in the lessons for… months. We would spend the first part of the lesson in walk, trying to get her supple and coming from behind. Until that was happening, we didn’t ask for trot. We did exercises to help with the transitions, repetitive so she knew what was coming (reduce anxiety) but also kept her brain and body engaged. She got lots of breaks, pats, and then it was back to getting a good walk before doing something more. If she broke to trot, no big deal, just circle and use the shape and the ring to assist in the downwards.
This took a lot of patience. She was nowhere near accepting the contact or “on the bit” for ages. I wondered if we would ever get to canter in my lesson! Of course I did some cantering outside of lessons, it was usually pretty unbalanced and I just focused on doing smooth half-30m turns around the short sides! And avoiding other people!
I started riding in the fields and trails with a pal - and this was great, she loved being out. My previous experience with OTTBs and other green horses is that having them canter in a bigger area gives them a better ability to balance, without turns coming up all the time as they do in the ring. Go up a gentle slope, no need to use the reins more than a gentle contact, they will usually break into trot themselves and you can put your leg on, push the hindquarters into your gentle contact, and do the same for the downward transition to walk. Of course this is fantastic for fitness too. My trail rides are usually 90% walk, some trot, and at most, a minute or two of actual canter. Some of that walk is up and down hill, which at first can be a bit scary (downhill on an unfit horse is very difficult for them to balance themselves and a rider). Slowly building up the hacking gives so much fitness and strength without doing endless circles. If the horse enjoys it, it’s a low-key way to improve all the aids as you do have to navigate turns, trees, wait for the other horse, etc.
I tried doing some tiny jumps in the fall of her 3 year old year - that was a disaster! She knocked a few poles and that confused her. After trying a couple times, I realized I was scaring her and I backed off completely. She then had a few months off in the winter. In hindsight she wasn’t balanced enough and couldn’t figure out her feet. (Another lesson for me!)
By her 4 year old year after getting her fit again, I decided to lunge her over a fake liverpool folded in half. No way she could knock it down and scare herself. We had walked over it already under saddle, so I knew she wasn’t spooky about it. That did the trick, after a couple lunge sessions she understood the mechanics of using her body to jump. And probably the time off, to settle her body and grow a bit, and then regain fitness, helped too.
The biggest thing I can suggest is having an open mind about what your green horse may or may not be able to do on any given day. Baby steps, as they say.
OP, I think you’re in over your head here, and the mare is in over her head, and it takes a LOT of strength and self awareness to admit that. Especially when you have an owner/person supposedly in charge that doesn’t recognize there is a problem.
@Imperatrixferox I own this horse, an older gelding version anyway. But the explosions, looking around at the rider/nipping at the leg, the unpredictability and the slamming on the brakes at seemingly random intervals was EXACTLY his MO. I had people tell me to cowboy through it, that he had an attitude, and that he was acting like a red headed mare, etc etc.
It was pain. My horse has gnarly kissing spines, suspected neck malfunction, ulcers that flare up at the slightest stress, and hoof imbalances that have caused all kinds of body issues higher up. He has been like peeling an onion - every time we thought we had addressed the issue, we found another. And the entire time we have been chasing this? He has looked absolutely, 100% sound in the pasture, ripping around and playing with his herd mates. He’s randomly sweet and cooperative. He looks fabulous, basically ready to step into the show ring, until you put a rider up.
I could have kept blaming his breed and his attitude, and probably got myself or someone else hurt - instead I listened to what he was SCREAMING and called the vet. Many many people thought I was a bit crazy, but then I pulled out the X-rays and ultrasounds saying “this is what he has been trying to tell us”.
Anyway, personally I would not be working with such a horse that wasn’t mine to make care and vet decisions about. You’ll be chasing your tail forever, I think, and probably get hurt in the process. Even if this is as simple as a round of Ulcergard and some bodywork, I do not think this is a good restart project for you, OP. I have done plenty of OTTBs in various stages, and this is a project you’d have to pay me VERY well to take on - she’s not going to be a quick fix no matter what. You are looking at weeks-months of low impact groundwork and in-hand, weeks-months of teaching her to relax and “just” walk, making everything fun and relaxed and her idea forever. You should definitely have a GOOD pro helping you throughout - this isn’t a horse to go it on your own.
ETA meant to respond generally whoops
One thing I say to ALL of my students, is that the horse did not choose to get ridden by you. So it’s your responsibility to figure out how to make her happy and willing to do the things you ask of her. That horse is in pain, and the ethical thing to do is to figure out what it is that is bothering her.
I also question the owner’s plans for this mare. I can see her trying to get free “training” of her (actually, she’s getting paid to have her horse “trained”), but if the lease doesn’t work out, or if she just has a different whim, she’ll breed the mare without any further qualms. So you may be doing all this work and since the lease is month-to-month, the owner can discontinue the lease and breed the mare – or do something else with her. Is it really worth all the time/effort for a month-to-month lease? I wouldn’t trust this owner based on the things you’ve mentioned about her. She’s there watching every ride for a reason. She wants something out of it.
P.S. I personally don’t like calling a mare a “chestnut mare” to describe a personality. It’s not fair to the horse. I’ve had lovely chestnut mares and a few nutty bays. Don’t put the mare in a box.
So this is a major conceptual error people make with horses in discomfort or pain. They equate the behavior with being deliberately naughty and then get the idea that the horse will “learn to get away with it” if they modify the work. I have done this in the past and I am not proud of it.
It is so wrong. Fix the pain and you have a different horse
I will bet almost any amount you are not quitting before you see resistance. I don’t mean quitting before the horse rears up and falls on you or balks. I mean quitting or redirecting when you see the pain wrinkle on the eyelid. Or the tense mouth. Are you able to see that and do that?
It’s very hard to learn good horsemanship when the lease owner/mentor is ignorant and unwilling to even ride their own horse.
It’s very possible the horse hurts more under saddle than at liberty. That’s so common. It’s also possible to razz a horse up at liberty, especially a TB, so they will run through pain. They can break a leg on the track and keep racing. None of what you are reporting rules out physical issues.
I am also dubious your saddle fits. How do you know it fits?
I hear a Turnip Truck rumblin’
down the road and it’s occupant
fell off.
This to me sounds like classic pain behaviors. Sad to say I haven’t met an ottb who didn’t have pain. If you can find the source and treat it they’re great! But I think the mindset of moody mares and dominance is damaging and even dangerous
This is one of the actually rare threads where every poster is in agreement, and offering a wide range of compatible perspectives. Unfortunately the OP is stuck to their script and may have little room to make change with an ignorant horse owner anyhow
You’re a saint to want to lease this horse. This is a project and you’re being taken advantage of. Even a free lease is a raw deal for a horse that meets this description. I agree with comments that shes unfit and may even be in pain. There are probably some sweetheart horses out there that are fun and safe to slowly get back into work, and in those cases, I can understand an owner leasing to an experienced rider. But nothing about this situation sounds like that. This owner is being a real jerk, both to you and the horse. She should (and most likely does) know better.
My $0.02 is that the horse probably needs more structure, starting from the very basics and progressing slowly and consistently to build her confidence and work ethic. Your approach seems to be doing what you feel like and then reacting to the holes you uncover. It’s better not to uncover the holes at all. Just trust that they are there and start methodically filling them in before you even get to them.
Start on the ground. Build a rapport with her using TRT type groundwork, get her feet moving and her focus on you, so she can relax and let go of her tension. Get a good lunging system that she goes well in and start working her over poles. Build her top line without a rider. Have a routine and start building good habits. Introduce new concepts one at a time. You don’t have to baby her or tiptoe around her—I don’t think that is what people are saying when they advise you to “listen” instead of “demand”—you just have to be incredibly confident that what you’re asking is clear and fair. That’s when you can demand.
I get the sense you are asking a lot and expecting a lot without knowing enough about her at this point to judge whether those asks and expectations are fair. It’s good to have high expectations—but for basic things, things you know she understands. You seem to be kind of feeling her out by trial and error with no strong basis for your expectations. It’s like walking on the floor of a decrepit old house. Reinforce the floor as you go and only step on the parts you built yourself. Don’t play hop scotch across the floor and act surprised if you fall right through!
This is a great post, and I’ll take it a step further and say that even better than being able to defuse a situation is to never get in that situation in the first place. That takes a lot of experience, feel, and awareness, it isn’t something everyone can do and even those who can may not be able to with every horse. I don’t have anywhere near the experience with OTTBs that other people on this board do, and I try very hard not to get myself into training situations I can’t reasonably get myself out of. It’s not fair to my horse if I can’t be the fearless leader he needs. That doesn’t mean I give up and go home at the first sign of trouble, but it does mean staying very closely in tune with my horse’s mental state to figure out whether something is momentarily stressful but doable for him, or if it needs to be set aside and taken on another time. It’s not easy and I don’t always get it right, but the goal is always for my horse to have a good experience, not push towards training goals at the expense of his comfort.
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