My daughter has an OTTB, we got him from her school. They got him from the track and did the retraining but he was not a candidate for IHSA showing so they had him for sale. Well, then he got pneumonia, my daughter assisted with his care became attached and brought him home (not at sale price). We have not been able to get any info out of anyone about his retraining and why he was not able to be used for IHSA. We spent last year getting him back into to shape. Teeth were done at school, we have done chiro and ulcers. He’s a super sweet horse, excellent ground manners, has won in showmanship classes already. And is often good under saddle. But he has a phase, where everything is run run run, and when told no then he stops and refuses to go forward. He pays no attention to where he backs up to and has been close to injury due to this. Tried working on the lunge last time to no avail. My daughter gives him a completely loose rein when this happens and accepts he may bolt forward for a while but he doesn’t. I had her dismount and then he worked on the lunge like nothing happened, I had her get back on as strickly a passenger, she did not touch his sides or the reins and again worked fine. This also happened the first time we took him trail riding, he started down a hill fine and she tried to balance him and he started the hop up and run backwards thing, I ended up grabbing his bridle and he still did it until my mare bit him, then he settled down and went along fine for the rest of the ride. Does anyone have experience with these “moments” and can give some advice how to handle them? He’s a lovely horse and has tons of potential, our first OTTB been off the track 5 years. Thanks!!
Do you have any skilled trainer help?
I would also want to rule out that he has a neuroligical problem of some kind.
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Get help from a trainer skilled with ottb. Assume horse has no functional post track training and start from zero.
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If the symptoms persist and stymie trainer then get a vet work up for physical or neurological issues.
Now you know why he didn’t work out at the school.
I also suggest a good trainer to help you. And I always do a full physical exam to rule out pain. Not JUST a chiropractor. A vet as well to do a lameness exam.
Good luck! Hope things get better.
He is being the racehorse he was trained to be. NO ONE has explained his new job to him. Poor guy. Many of these horses are so well broke that the people “restarting” get fooled into thinking the horse gets it. They don’t. That’s why retraining racehorses is best done by those who understand how they become racehorses. It is about habit and routine. Watch some races on TV. There is a pattern. You will see that pattern in your horse’s behaviour.
Back pain.
Do a basic assessment, you can find them on You Tube if you search equine massage techniques. You will very quickly see where the issue is.
Good advice here already, search for physical issues, look for help from professional trainer. However, if these options are not possible for you, or you have already investigated these things, one could say that this horse is not responsive to “forward” as a response to pressure from the leg. Reschool this lesson. On the ground driving lines. Horses CAN race without much training on this issue, they tend to go forward with other horses when in a group, and natural competitive instinct CAN win races in conjunction with a jockey with a stick. The jockey has no “leg” on the horse’s side (the exercise rider often does, but sometimes not either. Depends on exactly who has done the work with the horse how much classical education a horse gets in race training).
So, start by satisfying yourself about any possible physical issues. Search for a trainer who can help you, who has good experience with untrained horses. Reschool the horse. Going “forward” is not just about “loosening the reins”, it’s about responding adequately and accurately to leg pressure… accepting the rider’s leg. This “backwards” response may have worked out well for the horse in the past as a “resistance”, getting out of doing something that he does not want to participate in, or frightens him, or does not understand. Start small. Show him what you want him to do, and reward for a positive response from him. This is “ground work”. Don’t ride him again until you get a good response of “forward” from the cue on his sides with the driving lines. Ground drive him everywhere, start in an enclosure or riding ring, then branch out, over poles on the ground, and around the farm, past “scary stuff”. If you have not ground driven a horse effectively before yourself, you may need some lessons in this. It’s a different sort of feel. Good luck!
Thanks for all the input. He has gone through all the physical pain checks. This seems to be a resistance issue. But what’s odd to me is that he wanted to go forward in the first place but when told no, not at that speed. It’s almost like a temper tantrum, then fine I won’t go forward at all then. I have a trainer relativley close we will take him too. This is a random behaviour and not all the time. He was quite happy to work on the lunge after the last episode. And yes, we do ground drive him and have not had the issue on the ground (my daughter plans to drive him too)
The ex barrel horse we just got has a similar resistance, but he’s not as drastic. He will stop and regain composure then proceed to work where the OTTB, doesn’t. But we will continue the lunge work since we had a positive result there too. We have done all the training with our horses, just not had an OTTB before and there was one at the last event we had who had a similiar reaction. So I will definately call my trainer and check out race videos, and we will have him gone over again and check for nero, there was a LOT to fix, hence why that’s all we did last year.
He really has made great strides. We were told he’d never be sound, would never be ridden, and was hard to handle. He stopped being head shy the day he arrived at our barn, his ground manners are perfect. Can be lead by the mane or his fly mask, very polite on the ground. Has stopped pulling when tied since the chiro worked on his neck (and other parts) And mostly polite under saddle, save for these episodes. He is 100% sound now and is up to a good weight. We have taken him trail riding, he has managed a couple small dressage tests, a ground poles class, a medieval skill at arms course (at the walk) He is now loading and unloading like a dream. So as a whole I am very happy and willing to put the time and effort in him.
@Knader, I suggest being very sure of his reactions if your daughter starts driving him. I had a driving pony whose go-to response to anything that scared him was to back up or bolt. I preferred the bolt response as he came very close to backing us over the edge of a ravine the first time he pulled that little trick on me. Had he backed us over the edge, most likely the weight of the cart and me would have pulled him right on top of me, and I wouldn’t be here to tell the tale.
This pony was 22 years old when I bought him and had been driving his entire life. He was very sweet and wouldn’t hurt anyone deliberately, but would lose his mind occasionally. He was a Hackney, which to some people explains a lot.
I dealt with it as I’d bought him to drive, and he was far too small to ride. But boy, did I learn to stay on my toes. I don’t think I’d start driving a horse with a known propensity for backing up inappropriately.
Rebecca
@Knader I have a really lovely young OTTB that I’m bringing along that is working through related things. His default when stressed or worried is to lock his legs and stop. Most people I know would look at that, go “Resistance” and escalate. He’s not resisting, he’s untrained and confused!
This guy sounds similar and has been told he must go forward, so he flees. Then, the flee forward gets blocked so he flees backward because he’s not supposed to stop.
In the beginning, I had someone lead him with me on him and as they walked forward I would squeeze and tap with my dressage whip. As we built started to build the vocabulary, we did more alone. But if his legs lock?
He’s worried. I literally wait him out. I sit up there with my dressage whip and as I feel him relax I squeeze/tap. If he doesn’t move after a couple tries. I wait longer and try again later without escalating. Calmly forward is always the goal.
As he gains confidence, the problem reduces. As he learns to trust me, the problem reduces. Once recently he spent around 15 min staring at a hunk of dry mowed grass when we started hacking alone in the back field. I let him figure it out while my dog marched back and forth peeing on it :lol:. After he marched quietly (but suspiciously) past it the first time? It hasn’t been an issue since. We’re hacking out and starting hillwork. I can steer in the ring mostly off leg and seatbones. All as I heal up a major ankle injury.
Take it back a few steps. If he’s still confused, take it back farther and farther until you find a place he does understand. Then work forward from that point, an inch at a time.
From a physical standpoint, if his ulcers are truly resolved, than I would look at his back. It shouldn’t be much to have his spine x-rayed to rule out back issues/kissing spine.
I had a young horse (not OTTB) test me in a similar manner. He was all scurry, scurry, scurry, and then he hit a phase of stop and no go. Which then turned into stop and back up regardless of what was going on. When he’d throw it in reverse, I continued to reverse. I was ready to reverse around the arena all day. After reversing was no longer his idea and he was in reverse for longer than he wanted to be, he readily moved forward. He learned quickly. It wasn’t as fun when it was no longer his idea. I only did this in an empty arena, because he did back into a wall once and I didn’t want him backing into anyone or anything or out on the trail.
I couldn’t just smack him with my whip when he stopped or started backing because he completely ignored it. That was a fun fact I discovered when I first got him. Issues are resolved now. This horse also had a very thorough PPE, so I was fairly confident it was an attitude problem.
I also made sure to follow through with a lot of praise when he did do the right thing. It must be clear what is right and what is wrong because sometimes, they just don’t know.
we have one thoroughbred, she was never raced but comes from racing lines…she was injured as foal… but this horse only has one goal in mind… run fast forward… she has two speeds…walk forward, run forward… backing sucks due to her leg injury
Her mind is wired to run…nothing we have been able to do with her can change that
She is very pretty and worships the ground the lead horse walks upon
[QUOTE=Knader;n10155630 and check out race videos,. [/QUOTE]
Checking out race videos will not help you. You would have had to know which exercise rider did his original breaking, and who rode him in exercise the mornings, and the level of proficiency of these people. This is now ancient history for him, water under the bridge. My only point was, if this was not professionally done at the time, it still has not been retrained yet with previous owners before you, whoever they were, or whatever they claimed they had accomplished with this horse. So you need to try to fill this “hole” in his past training, which may have been adequate to be some sort of a racehorse, but is not adequate to be a riding horse now. This is not the “norm” for racehorses, many are very well broke by very skilled riders and trainers who do educate a young horse to move forward from leg pressure. But not all riders who work breaking TBs as race prospects are as skilled as others.
Keep in mind that riding a horse who does not have a good “forward response” to leg pressure is not a safe situation. The next step is to rear, and possibly flip over on top of a rider in his saying “NO” to forward cues. This is why you need to tackle this with ground driving. Do NOT attempt to hitch this horse to a cart to drive him that way, as a carriage horse, if his forward button is not well fixed first. To do so would be extremely dangerous, more so than riding him.
Keep in mind that just because a vet exam has not found a physical issue, does not mean that there is not still a physical issue there causing this. It just may mean that the physical issue has not been identified yet, and may never be identified, but it is still there. If it is truly not a physical issue, a mental issue of saying “no” to forward cues and going backwards instead can be a tough resistance or response to retrain. It involves getting into his head, and rewiring his brain with accurate cues and responses.
Good luck.
If he had his teeth done at the school last year he will need them done again.
Most probably your barrel horse was a quarter horse or stock horse. This means he is awarmblood and not the sane meaning as the Dressage warm bloods. It means their reaction times to what you do are medium. A draft horse is a cold blood which means a longer reaction time. The tb is a hot blood this means immediate reaction time which is what happened when she stopped him going forward.
He does not understand English. What he understood was she kicked. He went forward. He was told no that is wrong. She kicked again he tried something else which was back. You have taught him to back. Horses learn that fast.
Backing is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. If you kick they go faster. If you pull the reins they go faster. Until they back into something. Fall over something or fall into something.
On the lunge he MUST go forward.
I strongly suggest you do not ride this horse again until you have the trainer there. Maje sure you disclose everything to the trainer.
If I was to help you I would take this horse and train it without your daughter and give your daughter lessons om the other horse. JMHO.
Guessing he may have had someone do ‘the make the horse back up 10, 20 or more steps’ as a discipline for whatever unwanted behavior. I’ve seen it most often with NH people. The more sensitive horses become scared and back up excessively when triggered and they have no idea as to why they must do it.
This may or may not be your horse’s issue but something to consider.
I’m curious as to when you are hand walking - how does he respond to touching his upper neck?
This is a pretty common issue with some QHs I have retrained. They back horse hard and fast for going too forward all the time and to them, anything more than a crawl is too forward. Some of the faster disciplines do it too for god knows what reason. I have seen barrel horses backed all the way across the ring fast. Why, can’t tell you.
turn the horse in a circle when it starts to back. Use an opening rein way to the side and pull its nose around so the back end has to go sideways to break the backing motion. Then when he does, say good boy and just let the horse stand there, release the rein when he stops backing, give him a minute standing there just to chill. Then ask him to walk forward in a small circle. When he does, then you can straighten him out and continue.
my QH mare did this when she was nervous or confused when I first got her. After a month assuring her hard fast backing was not part of our program here, she never did it again. This is very fixable.
Well, I think you know why this horse was not a candidate for the IHSA program.
I don’t think this horse meets any definition of a “lovely horse with lots of potential.” This is a horse with a serious, fairly dangerous behavior issue. It’s possible that there is a physical problem at the root of it, or it’s possible that this is just a mental hangup. I think you have to decide how much you are willing to invest in this horse, recognizing that you may not ever find a complete or satisfactory solution to the problem and may at the end of the day end up having spent a lot of money and still having the same horse. I think that the first step is to get an experienced professional trainer involved. You could do a vet workup, but I think it’s unlikely that the vet is going to uncover something treatable that will solve the horse’s problem.
I think you also need to determine how much risk you and your daughter are willing to accept. Horses that back up in a blind fashion are pretty unsafe. It’s really easy for a horse to back into something dangerous, or to back into something that causes them to panic. Also, backing out of the bridle puts the rider into a position where they have no control. It also sets the horse up beautifully for rearing, bolting or bucking. I’m not sure what you mean by “run run run” but bolting is another really tough issue.
@fordtraktor I agree that if this were a QH that had been specifically mis-trained in this manner that it would be a fixable problem. Instead, this is an OTTB and I think it’s very unlikely that this horse went through a QH type training program. This isn’t a horse that has been mis-trained–this is a horse that has somehow picked up a nasty quirk and we don’t know why. I also think it is a stretch to compare the mind of an OTTB to the mind of a QH. I have plenty of both, and I don’t feel like they compare (others may disagree).
You and your daughter were kind to take this horse on, but there’s a big reason you were able to get him for free, and it may not be something fixable. I hope that I am wrong and that you can report back in a year that the horse stopped doing this and no one was hurt in the process.
It really depends on the TB and QH on the mind thing. I have had some super laid back TBs and high octane QHs.
What discipline is the horse?
FWIW my OTTB used to sometimes run backwards when balky and I reschooled it the same way. He doesn’t do that at all now. The QH behaviors were the same just more ingrained.
turn the horse hard to the side and disengage the hindquarters and it won’t keep running back. I don’t think this is so unsafe as there is such an easy “off” button. Don’t just sit there and wait for it to back into something dangerous! If you can’t do something so basic you have no business with an OTTB, I agree with that.
the classic fix for bolting is to tell the horse “you want to run? Run!” Urge it on. Once it wears itself out force it to keep going for a good long while. Few choose to do this more than a few times.
Start with a lameness workup form the vet to make sure nothing is hurting him. If he passes, have the dentist out to check his teeth. Assuming he’s youngish, they should be checked every 6 months and it sounds like it’s been quite a bit longer than that.
If those steps are both done, find a trainer who restarts OTTBs for a living. Someone who truly understands the training he has. This is where you and your daughter are in over your heads right now. Send him off for 60 days if you can’t find someone who can come to you 3-4 days a week. After that, get your daughter some lessons on him with the trainer. If the trainer has successfully taught him the kindergarten lessons of whoa, go, steer - then maybe your daughter will be able to take back over with ongoing instruction. If not, leave him there longer.
This horse has some education at the track. He had some work at the school, but was not suitable for their program. You sound as though you have some skills, but just not the skills needed to work with this horse. This horse seems to take serious objection to the use of reins, and reverts to whatever behavior he thinks you may want. If your daughter was attempting to rebalance him from the reins, he may have become completely confused.
I would suggest you work with someone with more mileage with these horses. I personally find them pretty unflappable but yet reactive to weight and leg correctly used.
