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OTTB snapping his teeth at me...

Off Course
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#1

I ride a couple times a week, and most of the horses are fairly well behaved except this one guy…

He’s a young OTTB and if I go in the stall with him he’s fine, but when I approach him in front his stall and stand there, maybe to pet him, he would stretch out his neck, pin his ears and snap his teeth at me.

He doesn’t bite or make contact with me at all, but it’s quite unnerving when this huge horse face is coming at you.

I might step back and wait till his ears go back up (I’m sure stepping back is definitely not the answer) or I might tap him on his cheek.

I would then wait a couple seconds and I can touch or approach him as normal. Also when I’m tacking up and doing his nose band he will sometimes toss his head or put his teeth on my hand (which earns him a smack and he doesn’t try again).

Is he trying to bite, will it lead to him biting me eventually, or is he just trying to scare/dominate me? I never ridden any grumpy horses like him so I am unsure of what I should do. I’ve read hitting horses on their face or cheek just worsens the problem.

#2

[QUOTE=Skitten;8408703]
I ride a couple times a week, and most of the horses are fairly well behaved except this one guy…

He’s a young OTTB and if I go in the stall with him he’s fine, but when I approach him in front his stall and stand there, maybe to pet him, he would stretch out his neck, pin his ears and snap his teeth at me.

He doesn’t bite or make contact with me at all, but it’s quite unnerving when this huge horse face is coming at you.

I might step back and wait till his ears go back up (I’m sure stepping back is definitely not the answer) or I might tap him on his cheek.

I would then wait a couple seconds and I can touch or approach him as normal. Also when I’m tacking up and doing his nose band he will sometimes toss his head or put his teeth on my hand (which earns him a smack and he doesn’t try again).

Is he trying to bite, will it lead to him biting me eventually, or is he just trying to scare/dominate me? I never ridden any grumpy horses like him so I am unsure of what I should do. I’ve read hitting horses on their face or cheek just worsens the problem.[/QUOTE]

This horse needs to learn, in no uncertain terms, that he CANNOT make a bid to bite you. Ever. He needs to feel like you could possibly kill him if it happens again. Biting is one time when you are allowed to lash back, and mean it.

#3

He is being dominate. If he was at my barn and under my care I would definitely get after him for that; clap my hands and say a stern “hey!” and move directly towards him until he moves away. If he is someone else’s they might not be okay with that, people feel differently about this kind of behavior but I won’t stand it in one of my own or training rides.

#4

I’ve always found hitting horses for biting just makes for a sneakier, faster biter.

If I know I am working with a biter, I position myself where he will punish himself for biting me. For example, if I’m doing up the girth I have my elbow positioned where I can block his mouth pretty forcefully if it heads in my direction. If I’m doing up a noseband, I’d probably have the knuckles of one hand positioned very near his face to block if it swung my way. That way, the correction comes at the exact same instant as the attempted bite, instead of after the completed bite.

I would not go petting on the horse or otherwise set him up to bite where I couldn’t do anything to prevent it. For instance, I wouldn’t go reaching in over the stall door.

Also I would try my best to avoid allowing him to move my feet. This gives horses funny ideas, like that they’re in charge. The best way I’ve found to avoid horses moving my feet is to proactively make them move their feet before they ever get started trying to move mine. Is there anyone where you ride who can show you some groundwork techniques?

#5

I think this is one of those situations where having someone more experienced with good timing on hand with you would be wise.

Since this is not your horse but you are riding him, I’d assume you’ve got a trainer or someone handy? You need to be able to handle him safely of course, but sometimes, a well timed pop/smack/natural consequence is best performed at least initially by someone who more likely to be comfortable handling what may occur next.

For example, I handled a horse once like this and his reaction to getting a natural consequence pop by my elbow when he reached around to bite while tightening the girth was to blow for the rafters. He was just a reactive critter. But the next move on my part wasn’t to say “there there you poor baby” or back off OR yell and scream and make a fuss…he got a lot of quick feet in the aisle business for a min and then I asked him to stand again.

If you’re unsure of the behavior and the best way to correct it (per your post), then it might be a great learning opportunity to see how someone else handles it. That timing isn’t necessarily something that’s easy to convey over the interwebz.

Good luck!

#6

. This horse needs to learn, in no uncertain terms, that he CANNOT make a bid to bite you. Ever. He needs to feel like you could possibly kill him if it happens again. Biting is one time when you are allowed to lash back, and mean it.

“Lashing back” is never OK. The horse either has a physical issue causing discomfort or a behavioral issue that needs to be appropriately retrained by a professional.

OP, it sounds like you should talk to your trainer or the barn manager about this horse.

Have one of them help you groom and tack him up. You shouldn’t approach his stall again until one of them shows you what to do. You could get hurt and you could create an even bigger problem with this horse, even if you don’t mean to.

The internet can be a great place ,but it is no substitute for help on the ground

#7

we had an OTTB once, We got the mare at age four.
She was one of the sweetest horses ever, but she would make ugly faces in the stall, pinned ears, bare teeth, running her teeth up the bars (like sharpening them, :lol:), she looked menacing, being black brown to boot as well.

Once you opened the door, the ears came forward, total different horse.
Unless he does the same thing when the door is open, bare teeth, etc, I would do nothing.
Open the door to pet him (people have lost fingers anyhow, sticking them through the bars!)

Now, sisters mare would make faces when saddled, one time she got my sister in the side, biting her.
The result was about 15 meters rapid backing up with a swinging lead rope. The mare always made faces, but I don’t think she ever bit again. I guess you gotta have the timing to make them think they will die, withing preferably the first second of their misdeed…

#8

The stall only goes up to his shoulder so it’s no problem for me to pet him when he’s looking over the wall.

If I smack him he just throws up his head and pretty much goes back to normal. He doesn’t bare his teeth or anything, just snaps a couple times and draws back.

I understand what you all are saying about not giving up ground, I will try clapping my hands or something to get him to step back. In the stall or being around him usually he would pretty much ignore me, but once in awhile he try that.

If he tried any of that nonsense around my trainer she would just smack him and yell “no” but I doubt he’d show her the same disrespect.

#9

This is probably a bad habit learned at the track. The others have given you good advice to follow. :slight_smile:

#10

you know how you don’t go sticking your hand in a strange dog’s food bowl? well, you don’t go putting your body/hands in a strange horse’s stall…

I’m with the camp that over-reacting or really getting after him makes for a sneakier and faster biter. I think the first thing to do if you can (not sure your role in the horse’s management) is to figure out why - ulcers? stall protectiveness? lack of manners? back-sore? Rule out physical before being physical.

That being said I agree that no horse should ever feel he can freely or safely bite someone. If I had a horse do that to me I would do exactly what a lead horse in a turnout situation does - reprimand and MOVE him, FAST. Horse bites me and I growl LOUDLY and MEAN it and act as if I am going to wheel around and kick him myself. I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to hitting the horse with a hand over this, but you growl loudly and firmly enough and most horses think they’re about to get murdered. You want them to move away from you and you want to dictate exactly how much. It helps if you have them at the end of the rope, you can twirl the rope around towards their neck/shoulder as if it were a hoof flying at them.

Don’t go setting him up for failure and yourself up for injury by standing/petting him in front of his stall.

Obviously you are not the horse’s owner, so I am not so sure how much you can do.

#11

[QUOTE=beowulf;8408891]

Obviously you are not the horse’s owner, so I am not so sure how much you can do.[/QUOTE]

I think this is the big part of why I’d suggest some coaching with trainer. If it were my horse and someone decided to take corrective action they read about online and it ended in a wreck with my horse or another person injured, I’d be pretty hot. I’m not saying that any of the advice has been bad, just that it’s a timing thing. And I wonder if the horse would be pulling the same garbage with trainer?

Where I board right now, there’s a horse who I’ve been told is a bit of a bully on the lead for example. Now this is a horse I’ve known for a few months and have been around on an almost daily basis. I’ve also handled the horse quite a few times. I’ve never had an issue. But I got a message yesterday from a friend complaining that the barn staff are having problems with the horse.

Well…that’s nice. Go talk to the BM/trainer or the owner of said horse and get a lesson in handling was pretty much my response. I can’t duplicate the problem and I’ve not seen it. I think that most horses are smart enough to know who they can and can’t pull nonsense with. And by my logic, if people aren’t trained how to handle a horse properly, it’s putting horse and handler at risk. But again…not so much a teachable thing online. I’d get the trainer involved.

#12

I understand what you mean. I have mentioned it to her a couple of times but she says thats just the stallion in him or that’s how he is sometimes. (He was gelded late).

I’ve ridden him for over 2 years so it’s not like he’s an “unknown” or “strange” horse, I think he does it to me and not her because he thinks he can get away with it. He’s never done it while she’s around
And it’s more or less a recent thing. He’s always been a tad grumpy on the ground but not forward like that.

Being said I won’t hit him or anything, I just think getting him to move away from me would be the best and safest route.

I thank you all for your suggestions.

#13

[QUOTE=Skitten;8408979]

I’ve ridden him for over 2 years <snip>
And it’s more or less a recent thing. He’s always been a tad grumpy on the ground but not forward like that.[/QUOTE]

If you have ridden him for two years and this is a recent development, then yes, he will bite you eventually if you allow it to continue.

#14

[QUOTE=Skitten;8408979]
I understand what you mean. I have mentioned it to her a couple of times but she says thats just the stallion in him or that’s how he is sometimes. (He was gelded late).

I’ve ridden him for over 2 years so it’s not like he’s an “unknown” or “strange” horse, I think he does it to me and not her because he thinks he can get away with it. He’s never done it while she’s around
And it’s more or less a recent thing. He’s always been a tad grumpy on the ground but not forward like that.

Being said I won’t hit him or anything, I just think getting him to move away from me would be the best and safest route.

I thank you all for your suggestions.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha. That extra background helps. I hope you aren’t getting the impression from me that I’m calling you incompetent or something. Was not my intention at all. Where I’m coming from is that it’s such an obvious no-no to me that the fact you had to ask indicates that perhaps you’re not as experienced in reading situations and reacting. Which doesn’t mean dump, unteachable, or anything like that.

If it’s new behavior after two years of working with him then my radar would be pinging that there may be more than just a behavioral component to this. It could be that he’s just taking advantage of you. But it could ALSO be that there’s something else going on. I’d not chalk it up to being gelded late–especially given that it’s recent behavior. Plus…I know lots of stallions who are perfect gentlemen because they’re just NOT allowed to behave poorly.

#15

[QUOTE=BuddyRoo;8409004]
I hope you aren’t getting the impression from me that I’m calling you incompetent or something. Was not my intention at all. [/QUOTE]

No harm done :slight_smile: I admit I’ve only been around quite well behaved horses besides him so I really don’t have this kind of experience - I know hes out of line.
I also know young horses “clacking their teeth” at older ones to show submission (obviously not the case). And that smacking them will just aggravate them, which is what my trainer would do.

But if I ever want to have my own horse I won’t want to have him walking all over me either.

I’m hyper aware that horses weigh 10x more than me and are lightning fast when they want to be, so I’m always super cautious around them, maybe that’s why he’s being naughty.

But I really do appreciate the advice / suggestions of seasoned horse(wo)men thts why I came on here :slight_smile:

#16

Sometimes they’re Just. That. Way. My good eventer was a dreamboat under saddle, but a rusty chainsaw on the ground for all of the 21 years I owned him. He ALWAYS snapped at the air, grabbed the crosstie, wrung his tail and basically acted put-upon. Could never prevail to change what had become an ingrained habit long before I bought him.

For the talent he brought to the table, I could live with his snark and sass. He was never DANGEROUS, merely annoying that way, but I grew to accept it as part of his personality that was, at the end of the day, pretty benign. Sometimes they just are what they are . . .

#17

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8408777]
“Lashing back” is never OK. The horse either has a physical issue causing discomfort or a behavioral issue that needs to be appropriately retrained by a professional.[/QUOTE]

No. A horse is NEVER allowed to threaten/bite a human. Period. Horses don’t speak English, so the only way to communicate that message is to convince the horse that attempting to bite a human is a VERY. BAD. IDEA. There are many safe, acceptable ways for a horse to communicate discomfort to the humans around him/her. Aggression isn’t one of them.

For the OP, specifically, the appropriate response to this behavior depends on her circumstances - is she a lesson student, barn worker, or…? In general, however, a horse exhibiting this kind of behavior needs to receive a response that makes him/her believe that death is imminent (physical contact is not necessarily required, for most horses) for 3-4 seconds following the bad behavior.

#18

[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;8409240]

For the OP, specifically, the appropriate response to this behavior depends on her circumstances - is she a lesson student, barn worker, or…? [/QUOTE]

Lessons student. Luckily for me and him, his two bad habits are the original post and that he swings his body away from the mounting block. Otherwirse he just couldnt be bothered to react to anything else.

#19

Sounds like a jaded lesson horse. He’s not particularly happy, but puts up with the circumstances of his job. I would just be workmanlike around the horse, don’t put up with his crap but don’t make a big fuss about it, he’s expressing his displeasure with his circumstances. He probably needs one owner who could take the time to understand and work with him, which he’s not going to get in a lesson barn.

You say, “I understand how big horses are and I am always cautious around him” – I am sure your body language is telegraphing a slight amount of fear, which will encourage him to show off his displeasure. Go with confidence and tell him to cut it out in a firm voice. Clapping isn’t really a good idea, just give a firm vocal reprimand and mean it. “Cut it out!” and moving forward with confident energy like you are the boss horse in the herd so he moves his feet will work well – but have your trainer help you with this.

I feel kind of bad for this horse, actually. He will behave more politely if he respects you, though.

#20

I feel like this is exactly the situation. I think most of the kids who ride are much younger so my trainer would do most of the ground handling when they come to ride.

He’s pretty good when he is given interesting things to do like mini courses. But definitely not the perfect beginner horse.

I don’t know much about what training he gets otherwise to keep him busy.

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