OTTB snapping his teeth at me...

[BuddyRoo]

[QUOTE=Skitten;8409306]
Lessons student. Luckily for me and him, his two bad habits are the original post and that he swings his body away from the mounting block. Otherwirse he just couldnt be bothered to react to anything else.[/QUOTE]

Well see again…the mounting block example. That’s something that IME can be resolved in about 2 min and with consistency, becomes a non issue.

Sometimes I am honestly baffled as to why people accept these behaviors–especially with a horse that is getting used by multiple people of various experience levels.

It’s one thing to accept an idiosyncrasy or even downright bad habit in one’s own horse. But for a horse that is being used by others, especially less experienced folks, it’s just baffles me.

For the mounting block issue OP, I think you could take some very easy steps towards correcting that and it might also improve your other situation indirectly.

My go to for a horse who doesn’t want to stand where I’ve asked them to is to make that the easy, lazy option and make non compliance “work”.

So here’s how I’d do it.

1. Lead horse to mounting block. Give a firm “Whoa.” Shorten your outside rein so that if the horse does start walking off, he’s moving into you not away from you (for your safety). If he stands, get on and I wouldn’t be opposed to palming him a carrot or peppermint right then while giving him a few “good boys” and pats.
2. IF he tries to walk off, dismount. Then back him up a few steps and use a growly but not yelling voice “Back, back, back”, move him over a few steps, again growly voice “over, over, over”, then forward, then to the side, then back–basically you’re aiming for a square where you are placing him and asking him to do quick feet for about 60 seconds.
3. then go back to #1, rinse and repeat til he stands and you can praise him with pats and a treat. This works for standing in cross ties, this works for standing for the farrier. And I suspect that if he realizes you mean business at the mounting block, it may well transfer over to some respect with the stall thing.

When my mare was a young thing (she’s nearly 25 now), she wanted to take off the minute you put a foot in the stirrup. Since I was often out in a field somewhere or on the trail or out with cattle, I had to get on and off frequently without a mounting block. So I started a routine with her after I mounted where I asked her to stand still, touch my right toe, then bend and touch my left, then back about 5 steps and THEN we went forward. It’s kind of funny now because while I don’t need to do that anymore, if I’m asking her to stand while mounted–say waiting on someone or watching someone–and she wants to get going, she’ll start “touch, touching” my toes like “um, okay now can we get on with it?” But she doesn’t move.

It sounds like this is a fun mount for you and is pretty danged trustworthy under saddle so I do understand why some of this doesn’t seem like a “big deal” but fundamentally, these are basic skills (IMHO) and I think you can and should take a bit more of a command role on the ground, when mounting, etc and not “just” be a good rider. Being an effective horseman/woman is about more than riding ability.

[NancyM]

Hard to give you any valuable input without seeing the situation. But keep in mind that sometimes horses who snap like this are actually fearful themselves, feeling the need to protect themselves, from YOU. Go hitting them for it, and the need to protect themselves only is reinforced.

I had one like this, a give away off the track. She was ODD. And yes, she would bite you, or bite AT you. It was ALL protective. She had been hit many times before I got her. I didn’t hit her, I comforted her instead. To do so was the opposite of instinct. She improved. Still odd in many ways, and not ever for a beginner to handle, but better. When I heard about her foalhood, I understood why she felt the need to protect herself from humans. Obviously, I cant say if this is the case with this horse, but food for thought. The human practically always wants to hit to establish supremacy and dominance, and sometimes this is what is needed. But not always. Horses can be pretty complex.

[Dressagelvr]

. No. A horse is NEVER allowed to threaten/bite a human. Period. Horses don’t speak English, so the only way to communicate that message is to convince the horse that attempting to bite a human is a VERY. BAD. IDEA. There are many safe, acceptable ways for a horse to communicate discomfort to the humans around him/her. Aggression isn’t one of them.

This is a simplistic, incorrect view of horse training. Horses don’t speak English, but they definitely have a language. People with good horsemanship learn their language and use it to communicate with them.

Bad behavior frequently is not the horse’s fault and some require a more firm hand than another.

Good horse training isn’t about domination, it is about communication. Being a good leader requires fairness and understanding.

OP, if this horse is aggressive towards you when you pet him through the front of his stall, stop doing that. You clearly need professional help with this horse and you will only continue to make things worse if you keep doing what you’re doing. You could be teaching him that this is just a game. And that can lead to dangerous things.

Please stop what you’re doing and get the help you need. This isn’t an insult. All horses are different and we spend our whole lives learning about them, if we are good horse people. We all need help from time to time no matter how long we’ve been doing it.

[Skitten]

I intend to get to my lesson early to work on this mounting block thing :lol: before it was just a step stool that you could just push up to him while holding him still, but now that it’s broken we have to use the stationary one.

So what he does is when you’re getting ready to mount, he turns to face you so you cant reach the stirrup and stands there. So I have to get off the block and walk him around in a circle and try again. Sometimes my trainer pushes his rump back into place. With her standing on the far side he has no choice.

Honestly it may be a good thing that he isn’t a perfect angel all of the time.

I’ll definitely work a little on the mounting block issue. I intended to do it next lesson, because we have no choice now. I’m sure chasing him around with the foot stool was enforcing his unwillingness to stand.

[Kwill]

NancyM could be right, but frankly since this is a lesson horse ridden by many amateurs, and probably bored and frustrated, the assertiveness is probably the best way to go with him to keep yourself safe.

You could try giving him a treat now and again to tell him he’s appreciated, but make sure he’s polite about it and do it in a controlled manner so he respects you and doesn’t get nippy.

The mounting block training sounds good but again, not sure your trainer would want you schooling a lesson horse in this way, especially if you are riding the horse in a lesson each time you get on. I would ask your trainer if you can work on getting him to stand still for mounting. I imagine it’s a busy barn and the trainer doesn’t have time to work on all the horses for every issue. So you might be able to get permission to work with this guy yourself.

Edit: never mind, sounds like she would like you to work on this, good for you. Seriously though, trainer needs to step it up a bit if she sees it’s a problem and holds the horses rump so he doesn’t sidle away … she needs to school him for better manners. Again, probably a lack of time.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=Kwill;8409498]
Sounds like a jaded lesson horse. He’s not particularly happy, but puts up with the circumstances of his job. I would just be workmanlike around the horse, don’t put up with his crap but don’t make a big fuss about it, he’s expressing his displeasure with his circumstances. He probably needs one owner who could take the time to understand and work with him, which he’s not going to get in a lesson barn.

You say, “I understand how big horses are and I am always cautious around him” – I am sure your body language is telegraphing a slight amount of fear, which will encourage him to show off his displeasure. Go with confidence and tell him to cut it out in a firm voice. Clapping isn’t really a good idea, just give a firm vocal reprimand and mean it. “Cut it out!” and moving forward with confident energy like you are the boss horse in the herd so he moves his feet will work well – but have your trainer help you with this.

I feel kind of bad for this horse, actually. He will behave more politely if he respects you, though.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this.

OP, a lot of horses are a bit protective about their space. My advice would be to leave the horse alone in his stall unless you need to do something with him (get him out to tack him up, etc.)

There are plenty of horses that don’t enjoy petting and having people fuss with them. I’d follow the advice above and be very workmanlike when you need to get this horse out to work, and then return him to his stall in the same fashion with a simple pat and then let.him.be.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8409611]
This is a simplistic, incorrect view of horse training. Horses don’t speak English, but they definitely have a language. People with good horsemanship learn their language and use it to communicate with them.

Bad behavior frequently is not the horse’s fault and some require a more firm hand than another.

Good horse training isn’t about domination, it is about communication. Being a good leader requires fairness and understanding.

OP, if this horse is aggressive towards you when you pet him through the front of his stall, stop doing that. You clearly need professional help with this horse and you will only continue to make things worse if you keep doing what you’re doing. You could be teaching him that this is just a game. And that can lead to dangerous things.

Please stop what you’re doing and get the help you need. This isn’t an insult. All horses are different and we spend our whole lives learning about them, if we are good horse people. We all need help from time to time no matter how long we’ve been doing it.[/QUOTE]

fairness and understanding during discipline is a human concept. you may be anthropomorphizing horse hierarchy a little too much. when an insubordinate horse lashes out at a subordinate or higher ranked horse there is no ‘fairness’ or ‘understanding’ during the immediately following interaction/altercation.

[TBROCKS]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8409611]
This is a simplistic, incorrect view of horse training. Horses don’t speak English, but they definitely have a language. People with good horsemanship learn their language and use it to communicate with them.[/QUOTE]

If you’re going to use this as an argument to not discipline this behavior, then you should watch a mare in the field with some geldings and observe if she lets one of them bite her. It’s swiftly dealt with, with her own teeth or a hoof. That’s her “communication”.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Oh, OK, now with the added details - add me to the “he’s just a grumpy schoolie” camp.

So my advice is pretty much the same - keep yourself safe, first of all (stop reaching over that stall door! ) but don’t be scared of him. Just think “where should I be so he can’t hurt me?” then be at that place.

He’s a grumpy schoolie and this is just how he’s going to behave. Some of them are terrific school horses. The horse I learned how to post the trot on was like this. A “rusty chainsaw” is a good way of describing her! :lol: She’s still working at the same barn - my nephew takes lessons there now - and she’s still quite the cobra on the ground (if cobras also had hooves and could kick! :lol:). Safe as houses with a beginner on her back, though. She and I actually became fond of each other, and I remember once when through my own stupidity she had a great opportunity to hurt me but didn’t. She made sure I knew she was forbearing to kill me through her generous good nature though. :lol:

This horse will give you great opportunities to learn about good self-defense techniques. :yes: You can’t really get those from the angels.

[Skitten]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8409660]
I completely agree with this.

OP, a lot of horses are a bit protective about their space. My advice would be to leave the horse alone in his stall unless you need to do something with him (get him out to tack him up, etc.)

There are plenty of horses that don’t enjoy petting and having people fuss with them. I’d follow the advice above and be very workmanlike when you need to get this horse out to work, and then return him to his stall in the same fashion with a simple pat and then let.him.be.[/QUOTE]

This is what I do usually because I never wanted to give him an opportunity to act this way. Just tack him up, ride, bathe and put him away again.

I actually have observed him with other people and he didn’t react this way towards them, so I assumed he only does it with me because he knows he can get away with it…
Since he recently started being a grump during tacking time I really think I need to be firmer with him, I honestly believe it’s that he thinks he doesn’t have to respect me.

[Skitten]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;8409679]

But this horse will teach you a lot about practicing good self-defense techniques. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Haha that’s why I haven’t requested a quieter horse, I know I could learn to be more confident on the ground if I can learn to work with him.
And the other horses available to me are old slow things that I have to kick at every corner just to keep a trot. :no: I feel really bad for that old guy so I’d rather leave him to the little kids

[BuddyRoo]

[QUOTE=Skitten;8409682]
This is what I do usually because I never wanted to give him an opportunity to act this way. Just tack him up, ride, bathe and put him away again.

I actually have observed him with other people and he didn’t react this way towards them, so I assumed he only does it with me because he knows he can get away with it…
Since he recently started being a grump during tacking time I really think I need to be firmer with him, I honestly believe it’s that he thinks he doesn’t have to respect me.[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty impressed at how you’ve handled comments and are processing this information.

And while I do think that it’s important to maintain some standards of respect, I think one thing that often happens to lesson horses is that they’re treated like bicycles that get pulled out, tacked up, used, and put away without much attention to them as individuals. Not much thanks.

One thing you might consider is trying to get out there earlier or spend more time after such that you can do more stuff that he enjoys. Maybe some hand grazing, maybe extra grooming, loving on him a bit if he likes that (I’ve had some who don’t). Treats if that’s allowed (in moderation). Giving him something during your time together that’s just about him and not about you might be a nice treat for him and may also improve his attitude. If all you represent is work to him, he may not be real excited about your time together.

I’m not saying that you need to bend over backwards and baby the crap out of him, just find a way to thank him that means something to him. Form more of a relationship.

I’ve half leased my horses out a few times and they definitely have their fave people. Those who just looked at it as a ride a few days per week were not as well received as those who spent some time treating the horse like it was THEIR horse that they actually cared about.

I’m not saying you don’t care–I’m just saying that maybe if some of your time together was directed towards things he enjoyed, he might come around to you a bit more.

If all they’re getting is pulled out to do work but aren’t getting that individual caring attention, it’s no wonder to me that they get a bit sour.

[cowboymom]

I agree, OP you have a good attitude. :yes:

I’m also of the idea that prevention of biting goes much further than the retaliation.

I’ve been bitten only once but it was really bad and came entirely out of the blue, the horse never bit before or since but she took a big chunk out of my arm when I held her back with the lead rope from biting the horse she really wanted.

So I’m very wary of mouthy horses now, very gunshy.

I used to have a job in the barn of an equine hospital so was in lots of stalls with lots of different horses and when we had one that behaved like he would bite I would always have at least the end of a manure fork or even a folded bit of lead rope to keep the horse’s head away from me and establish my space. I would approach them from the side to halter but make their face stay a polite distance away. Establish that personal space bubble and don’t allow him to turn his face to you and that will take the wind out of his sails before he even thinks to snap or make an ugly face. Think more about controlling where his head and body are in relation to you, not what he’s doing with his teeth. What he does with his facial expression is the very last thing he does in a sequence of movements and attitudes. The way to fix this and learn a whole lot about how to be with horses is to stop him from ever thinking about the snap and you do that by controlling where he moves.

[TequilaMockingbird]

@BuddyRoo;8409699

And while I do think that it’s important to maintain some standards of respect, I think one thing that often happens to lesson horses is that they’re treated like bicycles that get pulled out, tacked up, used, and put away without much attention to them as individuals. Not much thanks.

Totally agree with this. The last lesson horse I used frequently I would hand graze before and after rides as often as possible so he got some kind of enjoyment out of our time together. I would highly suggest this so long as you feel comfortable handling him on the ground.

I do this with my own horse frequently. I also let her go roll in her favorite spot after I’m done untacking or clean her face (which she loves and practically goes to sleep when I do it) after a good ride. If you want to form a positive relationship with this horse you have to give him something to like about you.

If seeing your face = time for some hard, thankless work, you can’t really blame him for not being exactly friendly when you go to get him. It really speaks to the gentle nature of some horses that they’ll continue to be gentle even when treated like a piece of sports equipment.

[SmartAlex]

Does this horse respect a longe whip or a crop?

When I have a snappy horse, I will carry a whip with me conspicuously. You don’t have to use it. Horses aren’t afraid of whips. They are respectful of the attitude of a person wielding a whip. An occasional reminder may be necessary. For instance, if he steps out of line, tap his ribs with the butt of the whip and speak up to him so he equates the presence of the whip with a “straighten up buddy” attitude from you.

Also, with a horse like this he needs to move back into his stall when a handler approaches. You should never allow a horse to crowd the door when you are entering. The appropriate place for Mr. Horse is a few paces back, facing you.

[Kwill]

I actually have observed him with other people and he didn’t react this way towards them, so I assumed he only does it with me because he knows he can get away with it.

and

Since he recently started being a grump during tacking time

Actually you may be doing something that you don’t realize to annoy or hurt him, or he’s recently had some pain somewhere. Does the saddle you use fit him? Are you tightening the girth too fast? Is the girth comfortable for him, clearing the elbows and not pinching?

I would be checking the saddle fit closely. The sidling away at the mounting block also tells me there’s an issue. He may have a sore back or something else physical going on, and he’s trying to tell you that.

[cowboymom]

Good catch Kwill :yes:

[Simbalism]

I had an app gelding at one time who had been gelded late(around 7yo). When I got him at 10 he had learned to intimidate people. If you were near his front end, he would try to bite or strike and if you got towards the rear end he would try to cow kick you. For around 6 months I never handled him without a short jumping crop in my hand. Every time he did something naughty, the offending body part got a quick smack with the crop. Attempt to bite, smack on the nose. Attempt to strike, smack on the leg. Attempt to cow kick, smack on the leg. He soon learned that I was not having it. He got to the point where I could groom, tack him up, trim his feet, give shots without even needing him to be tied. I owned him till he passed away at 24 and never had another problem with him.

[Skitten]

[QUOTE=Kwill;8410023]
Actually you may be doing something that you don’t realize to annoy or hurt him, or he’s recently had some pain somewhere. Does the saddle you use fit him? Are you tightening the girth too fast? Is the girth comfortable for him, clearing the elbows and not pinching?

I would be checking the saddle fit closely. The sidling away at the mounting block also tells me there’s an issue. He may have a sore back or something else physical going on, and he’s trying to tell you that.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, thank you guys for your kind comments.

Also he’s okay about me putting on the saddle, he just doesn’t like doing his nose band. He would turn his head or bob it up and down so you cant do it unless you hold him. It isn’t so tight that he cant open his mouth or anything and I’m pretty careful about not pinching him.

If he turns to look at me when I’m doing the girth or lays his ears back for a second, I rub my hands on the area but get no reaction, then continue what I’m doing and hes ok so I don’t think it’s that it’s paining him? But it’s not something he does every time. I will definitely be wary of tightening too fast though.

As for mounting hes always been like that but instead of just walking forward where you can easily push him back, which was the case before, he swings his butt away now.

I can see why he would think I represent hard work, we give him treats sometimes but not often enough. He’s also definitely being used more often during the week than a year or so ago.

[Skitten]

Simbalism, wouldnt a horse learn to respect the crop more than you? So perhaps if he sees that you don’t have it, he might try misbehaving?

When I was younger I had a dog who liked to run out the gate when it opened, if I was holding a rolled up newspaper she would sit nicely but if she saw I didn’t have it, out she went.

So I had to spend a couple hours chasing her back inside repeatedly before she got it. Oh and then if I wasnt standing near the gate she would try it again. Its a motorized gate. Luckily my current dogs aren’t as cunning.