OTTB snapping his teeth at me...

[Dee-Vee]

Just one more thing to check…rule out pain issues.

He may be lashing out at you because something is not right when he is being ridden…it hurts…and you as the rider are causing it. His owner is not his rider.

If he is an OTTB , it could be ulcers that hurt when you girth him or ride him. It is not uncommon.

I have an expressive mare who does her best to communicate with me when something is not right. I do my best to solve the problem when it occurs. Nonetheless, she can be much like Lady Eboshi’s horse when tacked up. And this I attribute to ill fitting tack in her early days before I got her that has become ingrained and behavioural perhaps through remberance of pain.

The issues only occur when she is tacked up, so I watch myself and the safety of others then. Otherwise you can do anything with her inside and outside of her stall. Some days are worse than others. I don’t overly react and praise her on her better days.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8409228]
Sometimes they’re Just. That. Way. My good eventer was a dreamboat under saddle, but a rusty chainsaw on the ground for all of the 21 years I owned him. He ALWAYS snapped at the air, grabbed the crosstie, wrung his tail and basically acted put-upon. Could never prevail to change what had become an ingrained habit long before I bought him.

For the talent he brought to the table, I could live with his snark and sass. He was never DANGEROUS, merely annoying that way, but I grew to accept it as part of his personality that was, at the end of the day, pretty benign. Sometimes they just are what they are . . .[/QUOTE]

I’m not discounting your perception of the problem, but so many horses are made to work when they have health issues and they are labeled as snarky or “just that way”.

OP, perhaps this is the only time the horse gets to show how he feels about his situation. I’m not saying it’s right for him to snap, I’m saying maybe try to understand what is setting him off. There was a mare at a place I boarded years ago that would lunge towards the stall door if she thought you were stopping there. Coming up to her stall I would start shaking treats in a bucket, that got her to come up to the door with her ears pricked and her mind on food. After a couple of mouthfuls I’d easily get the halter on and she happily went to the turn out paddock. I don’t know why she was like that, not my horse, but I handled her twice a day. Coming in she would always be waiting by the gate with no problems. The only problem I knew of with her was that first interaction at morning turn outs.

[Princess_Sparkles]

I am a little surprised by the number of people who said that an immediate reaction and discipline for biting will just make a “sneakier and faster biter”. I will NOT tolerate biting in any way shape or form, and you better believe every horse that has every tried to bite me knows it. The faster you can discipline them for something after they do it the more likely they are to connect that act with the discipline.

I don’t agree with smacking them in the head/face, as you can set yourself up for other problems (making them headshy or hard to bridle, etc). But there is nothing wrong with putting the fear of God in a biter, by raising your voice, a firm smack on the neck/shoulder, making them back away out of your personal space.

Some horses that are just “mouthy” (ie not necessarily looking to bite but enjoy putting things in their mouth and then might bite down) can benefit from a finger flick in the muzzle. Gentle but gets their attention and serves as a “hey, that is not acceptable behavior” reminder. Can’t really do this with a biter as you could end up losing fingers, but works well for mouthy horses.

The best way to handle a known biter is to never let your guard down around them. Minimize their chances of biting you and set yourself up to be in a good position. If they bare teeth, snap at the air, or lunge at you, react right away to push them out of your space and remind them that you are in charge. Generally a raised voice and a firm step forward using a lead rope to push them back is sufficient.

I do agree that horses can “read” people to a certain degree and know what they can and can’t get away with depending on the person. I have a boarder at my place, their mare drags them around, freaks out in the cross ties, breaks away from them when they are leading her, etc. . . she’s pretty much a lamb with me. She has tested me a few times, and didn’t like the results, so now we have a perfectly good relationship where she behaves and I don’t have any trouble with her.

So while a lot of the suggestions here are good, a person also needs to be confident and express that confidence to the animal to be successful in a lot of cases.

[cowboymom]

I never hit my horses, never need to. If someone is hitting horses as part of how to interact with them s/he is missing some major horse behavior clues.

[uphill]

When he is saddled and you go to ride, take a few moments to do some respect yielding work…(back up move to the side away from you, move the hind quarters away) When you make them move their feet in the direction and at the pace YOU want they respect you. Doesn’t take much time and it just reminds him that you are the boss. Reward him with nice pats ( or treats) only when his ears are up and he is respecting you. An ‘ah ah’ or ‘no’ when he first starts to think about making nasty face, then just go about what you are doing. Ears up=nice talk…snarky behavior gets “I don’t approve noise”. Definitely only self discipline IMO the well placed elbow he bumps into and thinks he did it to himself . …or he could get sneakier and faster and therefore more dangerous.

[Calamber]

If this is a lesson horse, and it is moving away from you on a mounting block, I would think the trainer (your trainer), should be helping you to overcome this problem. That is what lessons are for, I don’t understand the trainer not intervening in this on all levels. Have you spoken to him/her about how this horse is responding to you?

I would also suggest that you not pet this horse at the door if you are getting that response, and in order to assert yourself a bit more without escalating it, ignore the pinned ears and if you are feeding or bringing treats, then no feeding, petting or treats with pinned ears. Every time you are handling this horse you are training it, but I don’t think bottom line is that this horse does not like the lesson life and multiple people handling/riding it.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Skitten;8408856]
The stall only goes up to his shoulder so it’s no problem for me to pet him when he’s looking over the wall.

If I smack him he just throws up his head and pretty much goes back to normal. He doesn’t bare his teeth or anything, just snaps a couple times and draws back.

I understand what you all are saying about not giving up ground, I will try clapping my hands or something to get him to step back. In the stall or being around him usually he would pretty much ignore me, but once in awhile he try that.

If he tried any of that nonsense around my trainer she would just smack him and yell “no” but I doubt he’d show her the same disrespect.[/QUOTE]

Then you need to get your trainer to show you how to behave in order to get the same amount of respect.

[Goldie_locks]

Good Lord why isn’t his manager stepping in here?? It’s pretty clear this horse has an issue.

I don’t understand some of these “I am a trainer” people that will allow this type of horse in their program. Furthermore not address the horses issues and instead say “oh it’s just his stallion behavior, he was gelded late.” So irresponsible and dangerous!!

I see people hand feed these type of horses and perpetuate the problem.

It’s not your responsibility to train this horse!!!

[Canaqua]

Yeah, since this is a school horse, I’d point out the behavior to your trainer and/or BO and ask for help with it. If he’s bitey over his stall door, it could be that other students have been feeding him treats there and he’s getting pushy and demanding about it…in which case, that needs to stop ;).

I’ve had two horses who bit or threatened to, and they were VERY different. My junior horse was a big OTTB gelding who was just plain aggressive on the ground. Neither his previous owner’s trainer nor mine were able to solve it. Any attempts at physical discipline would cause him to escalate further, he was not intimidated! He was a great ride, a 3’6" packer, so we put up with it and managed him by avoiding situations where he could get at you and planning everything we did with him carefully to avoid a confrontation. Took twice as long to do anything!

Current leased mare is very bossy and seems to be territorial. She is a sweet heart away from her stall, very affectionate. But, in her stall and in the crossties right in front of her stall she makes horrible faces and threatens to bite, though she never has. She threatens the horses stalled on either side of her and any horses on the crossties right outside her stall. She threatens people if they touch her in her stall or those crossties, though you can go in her stall to pick it and she ignores you. Dogs are allowed wherever with no grumping ;). I try to groom and tack her up on crossties at the other end of the barn, away from her “territory”, then she is good and more relaxed. If the barn is busy, though, and I have to handle groom her in or close to her stall, I hold a bat and show it to her. Her owner came up with this, you don’t have to touch her with the bat, just show it to her. Then she completely relaxes and lets you do whatever without the mean faces and teeth baring. Very strange, but it works. It’s like she is “off duty” on the guard horse thing when a human is holding a stick while grooming her. I don’t know whether she thinks I’ll smack her with the stick or smack the other horses who might be looking at her or her “things”.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8411579]
I never hit my horses, never need to. If someone is hitting horses as part of how to interact with them s/he is missing some major horse behavior clues.[/QUOTE]

Just thought this bore repeating. I agree completely!

[Foxtrot_s]

I cannot read all the answers but my first thought is that horses do not lie.
He is youngish, he is from the track, this is newish behaviour since you have ridden him for three years.

Perhaps he has physical issues, starting with ulcer, expecting pain…I’d check that first and then work on timing his bad behaviour without beating up on him. Keep a stick handy that he gets tapped with, quite hard, as he goes to bite so he does not think it is your aggressive behaviour towards him.

I’m not a behavioural expert, but I’ve never had to use roughness in my entire life to get a horse polite and safe. In fact I work at being lighter and quieter all the time.

[Pipkin]

I bet it’s ulcers.

This was the first clue with mine. He would never dare bite me, or even threaten it, but when I went to brush his sides he would snap his teeth to himself. Poor wee guy must have been so uncomfortable

[CHT]

If the horse really only does this with the OP and not with the trainer, than I think it is a far simpler issue: she has trained him (inadvertently) to do this.

Horse pins his ears and snaps and she backs away. That is classic negative reinforcement training (removal of her presence when the behaviour is shown reinforces the behaviour).

It is like a trick you have taught him. To punish him for learning this trick will likely just frustrate him. Instead, stop reinforcing the behavior in anyway. Keep yourself safe, but otherwise do NOT react. (some horses bite and kick in play, so hitting them is more or less engaging them in play). Wave your arms if you need him to back off, but do it without looking at him…make it more like you are a crazy person with random hand flails than that you are actually responding to him.

[Scribbler]

Horses bite and kick each other, or threaten to, all the time. It is how they sort out their social hierarchies. However, they need to be taught that it is just never okay to bite or kick a human, or even threaten to. The amount of pressure or force you use to get this message across will of course depend on what behavior the horse is offering. IME, it is more effective to make a horse move back fast from you as a disciplinary tactic, rather than slap them. In horsey dominance games, the horse that backs off loses that round. So slapping a nippy horse, but letting him stand still, isn’t that effective. He thinks he’s won that round: he bit you, but you let him stand his ground. And slapping on the face is a bad idea because you don’t want to make them headshy. On the other hand, depending on the aggression of the horse, you might need to use the end of the lead-rope or a lunge whip to get them to move off.

I don’t think the horse as described here is acting out in pain. If he was in pain, for instance with gut issues, the nippy behavior would continue through saddling, mounting, riding. This seems to me like dominance behavior: he is treating you like another horse that is getting in his space.

I think he is also playing with you. I don’t mean that this is friendly behavior, but rather that he is testing out his aggressive behavior to see what kind of reaction he’ll get. Young male horses are, IME, most likely to do this. And if they are on pasture with an older boss mare, she will just turn around and drill him if he gets too obnoxious.

As far as taking any steps to train this behaviour out of this horse, since this is a lesson horse in a lesson program, you as the student should be guided by what your trainer has to say on the subject, and everyone who works with the horse should be on the same page.

The other thing that occurs to me is common sense. You say that the horse is fine with you in the stall, fine with you working with him, but is threatening to nip when you come to the front of the stall, stick your hands in, and try to pat him. So don’t do that: don’t try to pat him.

[anon38350891]

OP, one thing is clear: alternating petting and smacking is not going to improve the situation. Stop the petting and the smacking both.