OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[Lord_Helpus]

I hear you loud and clear about not wanting to put him down…
BUT, IMO, that is not how you need to look at that option.

Try to put yourself in your horse’s position. If his behavior comes from pain, and the source of the problem cannot be found and treated, is it fair to him to be living with such acute and powerful painful episodes that he loses his mind?

As many of you might know, I just put my boy Bear down. It was a tough decision, but I know it was the right one. Because, what I wanted was not important. The only valid argument should be: What is best for the horse?

What you feel and want should be irrelevant.

I am not saying you should or should not seriously consider euthanasia – but if you do, make your decision based on the current and future well being of your horse, and not because you do not want to put him down for something that is not his fault.

Whatever happens, best of luck with him. Owning horses can be heartbreaking.

[ahf]

You mention that one thing that was/is considered is a spinal injury. have you considered moving forward with this? Perhaps a bone scan can identify the area, and he could be injected. You also mention Vit. E. Is he still on that, and how much per day? Because Vit. E can be helpful in managing spinal problems, perhaps increasing to 8000 to 10,000 IU of Nano-E.

[PeteyPie]

I have mostly questions but I hope they will be helpful:

It seems like every instance of explosive behavior happens on the lead, right? Could it be something like a sensitive tooth or a painful facial nerve? Damage/injury to his poll? Or how about EPM, doesn’t that involve the nerves?

How about painful ear plaques, bugs, or an ear infection?

Eye infection or incipient blindness? Does he always explode going one direction or has it happened when he is being lunged both ways?

I’m thinking about the issue of pressure on his face, head, or neck: have you lunged him freely without a halter or lunge line and had this happen? I realize that may not be safe, given his behavior. Has he had major explosions under saddle or only on a lead? Have you tried a neck collar only (again, less control, so maybe that is not safe).

If it is a behavior issue, he will control himself around dominant people or animals, unless he had that bad social start like the stallion on the Buck Branaman movie. That horse had been hand raised and given no boundaries by people. Sometimes those bottle babies have no skills around other horses either, because they weren’t raised around them. One other thing: if it is a behavior issue and a trainer was able to get him to behave, would you be able to trust him without the trainer around? I’m wondering how well this aggressiveness can be controlled by training if it is a behavioral problem.

The brain tumor sounds possible, too, but with a brain tumor, the bad behavior will probably start to occur more randomly, not just in specific environments, and the crazy behavior will escalate as the tumor grows.

[zipperfoot]

Maybe I missed it, but what are you feeding him and how much turn-out does he get each day?
TIA

[Beethoven]

Have you tried just turning him out 24/7 for a few months and seeing what you have after that?

[ryansgirl]

Are you still in NH? A trip to New England Equine Medical & Surgical Center might be a good option. They have the tools there (including doing bone scans) that might be able to pinpoint something. Dr. Davis is amazing (he’s worked on my horses over the years) and is pretty darn good at lameness diagnostics as is Dr. Bartol (she’s worked on my mare) for anything internal. Hope you are able to figure out what is going on…

[heronponie]

Raise your hand if you’ve ever had a doctor tell you that you’re perfectly healthy when you’re still miserable/in pain? I know I have.

Diagnostics don’t show everything.

Personally, I am not willing to believe that the OP, the mother, the vet, and all the staff at the other boarding barn are just incompetent handlers. In other words, I don’t think it’s a behaviour issue. OP, you’ve already gone above and beyond for this horse- good on you. There are certainly some interesting possibilities on this thread (I’d be looking at brain/spinal cord myself) and any further diagnostics you do are your prerogative. I wouldn’t call you wrong if you stopped shoveling money into this. Good luck.

[vxf111]

Has vision been checked by a really good specialist?!

[Ruth0552]

[QUOTE=ryansgirl;8033224]
Are you still in NH? A trip to New England Equine Medical & Surgical Center might be a good option. They have the tools there (including doing bone scans) that might be able to pinpoint something. Dr. Davis is amazing (he’s worked on my horses over the years) and is pretty darn good at lameness diagnostics as is Dr. Bartol (she’s worked on my mare) for anything internal. Hope you are able to figure out what is going on…[/QUOTE]

Given your subsequent posts I would second this. New England Equine can do a bone scan and I have many friends that will swear that Dr. Davis is a genius.

I’m also curious about his turnout/feed.

It almost sounds like he tweaks something in his back occasionally that causes him to freak out. Sometimes things like that can feel like getting stung by a bee- and we all know what horses are like when they get stung by a bee. Have you had spinal x-rays? (sorry if you already said that I can’t scroll up to check. At least I didn’t suggest EPM/Lyme/Ulcers).

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;8033208]
Maybe I missed it, but what are you feeding him and how much turn-out does he get each day?
TIA[/QUOTE]

I feed him Sentinel Performance LS, I’ve cut his ration in half since October when I stopped riding him and replaced that with hay stretcher. He gets at least 8 hours of turnout every day, weather permitted. And when horses stay in he gets turned out in the indoor for at least 30 min.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8033243]
Has vision been checked by a really good specialist?![/QUOTE]

Vision has never been suggested, I’ll have him evaluated when the vet comes for Spring shots, thanks!

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=ryansgirl;8033224]
Are you still in NH? A trip to New England Equine Medical & Surgical Center might be a good option. They have the tools there (including doing bone scans) that might be able to pinpoint something. Dr. Davis is amazing (he’s worked on my horses over the years) and is pretty darn good at lameness diagnostics as is Dr. Bartol (she’s worked on my mare) for anything internal. Hope you are able to figure out what is going on…[/QUOTE]

Thanks I may stop by Monday and get a quote. For some reason I was told to go to Tufts, and didn’t know they had one over in Dover. Its only about a 45 minute drive.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=ryansgirl;8033224]
Are you still in NH? A trip to New England Equine Medical & Surgical Center might be a good option. They have the tools there (including doing bone scans) that might be able to pinpoint something. Dr. Davis is amazing (he’s worked on my horses over the years) and is pretty darn good at lameness diagnostics as is Dr. Bartol (she’s worked on my mare) for anything internal. Hope you are able to figure out what is going on…[/QUOTE]

Thanks I may stop by Monday and get a quote. For some reason I was told to go to Tufts, and didn’t know they had one over in Dover. Its only about a 45 minute drive.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;8033188]
I have mostly questions but I hope they will be helpful:

It seems like every instance of explosive behavior happens on the lead, right? Could it be something like a sensitive tooth or a painful facial nerve? Damage/injury to his poll? Or how about EPM, doesn’t that involve the nerves?

How about painful ear plaques, bugs, or an ear infection?

Eye infection or incipient blindness? Does he always explode going one direction or has it happened when he is being lunged both ways?

I’m thinking about the issue of pressure on his face, head, or neck: have you lunged him freely without a halter or lunge line and had this happen? I realize that may not be safe, given his behavior. Has he had major explosions under saddle or only on a lead? Have you tried a neck collar only (again, less control, so maybe that is not safe).

If it is a behavior issue, he will control himself around dominant people or animals, unless he had that bad social start like the stallion on the Buck Branaman movie. That horse had been hand raised and given no boundaries by people. Sometimes those bottle babies have no skills around other horses either, because they weren’t raised around them. One other thing: if it is a behavior issue and a trainer was able to get him to behave, would you be able to trust him without the trainer around? I’m wondering how well this aggressiveness can be controlled by training if it is a behavioral problem.

The brain tumor sounds possible, too, but with a brain tumor, the bad behavior will probably start to occur more randomly, not just in specific environments, and the crazy behavior will escalate as the tumor grows.[/QUOTE]

Facial issues were never thought of but could look into it. I used to lead him with a chain, but I never shanked it. I had a hunch maybe someone has, so I’ve since started using a plain lead. Generally when leading there would be no pressure on the lead/halter unless he began to freak out. But only pressure, no yanking.
It seems to be more of an outside-stimulus that sparks the explosions. He’ll lose his focus on me/handler and the task of walking somewhere and begin to worry until he explodes.

Behaviors don’t really happen under saddle. Every now and then we’ll have a bad day or 2 but then he’d shake it off and have a good few weeks of productivity. It is mostly in-hand that is the problem.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Beethoven;8033209]
Have you tried just turning him out 24/7 for a few months and seeing what you have after that?[/QUOTE]

The barn in VT had some horses turned out at night so we left him in his paddock for 48 hours to see if that helps. It did seem to provide a little bit of an adjustment, however he would not urine out there and that’s when the bladder issues began. That’s why we suspected a UTI, from holding his pee for the full 48 hours we left him outside.

I am moving back to VT perminantly this summer and am hoping to soon build a barn with dutch doors into the stalls to allow him to stay out 24/7 but be able to go inside to urinate. Until then I don’t think he’ll be ok just being left outside 24/7.

[Crockpot]

How much grain is he getting/
Have you tried cutting back his grain? if he’s getting alfalfa, try cutting that out for a while too

nevermind- I see you addressed that above

[DJohn]

Once you’ve ruled out physical pain (which I really doubt it is, unless he has a brain tumor), send him off to someone who specializes in ground work/respect.

Horses that leap up and strike out/kick are the rudest of the rude. They KNOW they will injure you. I honestly believe that because you love him, you may not notice this as him attacking you. But he is. A horse would NEVER kick out at someone they respected, and they can kick out without ever touching you. He knows what he’s doing and he’s got your number. And now it sounds like it is only getting worse.

I’d be leading him with a chain and a long whip/leather rein. He sounds like he just needs a “wake up and smell the coffee” type meeting. He has been able to abuse all of these humans, and not one of them has told him it’s wrong. You need to be able to set him straight. No treats, no extra grain, because I will bet that the food isn’t the problem. You can’t let him lose focus when leading. Walk him on a loose rope and if he starts to get stupid, shank him so his attention comes back to you. If he then tosses his head and strikes out, he has given you the right to lay a BEATING on him. That’s what a herd leader would do!

Also, 24/7 turnout. Immediately. A horse will pee if it has to pee.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8033314]
How much grain is he getting/
Have you tried cutting back his grain? if he’s getting alfalfa, try cutting that out for a while too[/QUOTE]

No alfalfa. Timothy/orchardgrass hays around here. His grain ration is cut in half since I stopped riding him in October and hay stretcher added

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=DJohn;8033319]
Once you’ve ruled out physical pain (which I really doubt it is, unless he has a brain tumor), send him off to someone who specializes in ground work/respect.

Horses that leap up and strike out/kick are the rudest of the rude. They KNOW they will injure you. I honestly believe that because you love him, you may not notice this as him attacking you. But he is. A horse would NEVER kick out at someone they respected, and they can kick out without ever touching you. He knows what he’s doing and he’s got your number. And now it sounds like it is only getting worse.

I’d be leading him with a chain and a long whip/leather rein. He sounds like he just needs a “wake up and smell the coffee” type meeting. He has been able to abuse all of these humans, and not one of them has told him it’s wrong. You need to be able to set him straight. No treats, no extra grain, because I will bet that the food isn’t the problem. You can’t let him lose focus when leading. Walk him on a loose rope and if he starts to get stupid, shank him so his attention comes back to you. If he then tosses his head and strikes out, he has given you the right to lay a BEATING on him. That’s what a herd leader would do!

Also, 24/7 turnout. Immediately. A horse will pee if it has to pee.[/QUOTE]

I need him to trust me, not fear me.

[findeight]

Just to maybe help you think about this more clearly, he is not your “best friend”. He does not understand the concept and cannot return feelings in kind to you or anybody else. You cannot take that personally, he doesn’t, he can’t. He doesn’t hold any grudges against you either, just reacts to the here and now.

What he really is, is a living being dependent in your stewardship. You are the responsible party in charge of all decisions involving him. I know you have spent a lot of money but a full clinic work up is going to be the only way you can even get close to getting an answer. Just be willing to accept the diagnosis may not provide a solution. We cannot fix everything.

Have no idea what this is but the (very unusual) UTI episodes make me think he has some type of old injury, maybe a fracture or serious spinal or internal injuries that never healed properly.

He could, possibly have tumor in the abdomen or along the spine that is putting pressure on anything around it. I agree with a bute test.

Only known one with a brain tumor. Flung itself over backwards and such. Went from just a little erratic to bad to worse to totally BSC in about a year. Diagnosed via necropsy. But this doesnt sound like that looked and it went quick with differing behavioral displays. This is more consistent over some time although it sounds like it has escalated since it first started. And for his sake you need to take charge, it’s not going to go away under your current plan or it would have already.