OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033298]

It seems to be more of an outside-stimulus that sparks the explosions. He’ll lose his focus on me/handler and the task of walking somewhere and begin to worry until he explodes. [/QUOTE]

Hmmmmmm. This sounds different from what I was envisioning. I thought he just went batshit all at once. But now I see that it is sort of a 3 step progression:

1. he loses focus
2. he begins to worry
3. he explodes.

This is sounding less like a nerve/spinal issue (which would, as someone said, cause him to react as if a bee stung him).

The “losing focus” part sounds like it could be a petit mal seizure, which can last from several seconds to a minute. If his brain shuts down and then suddenly comes back to the world, it could cause him to worry and then act out.

Has the vet ever mentioned partial or petit mal seizures? (They can also be called “absence seizures” since the brain takes a mini vacation from awareness.)

If this is a possibility, a brain tumor might be a likely cause. As could an injury to his head which could have happened without your knowing.

You have been an incredibly aware and reactive owner. Kudos to you for all you have done. Sadly, there may not be an answer. Sometimes even the most knowledgable of vets has to shrug his shoulders and admit that he doesn’t know what is wrong.

[Calamber]

It is also the case that hindgut ulcers cannot be seen on scope and are a long process to heal, Ulcergard and Ranitidine, etc, do not touch them. It seems like Succeed and another product whose name I am forgetting, are the only ones which have been mostly successful in treating them, that and long term turnout with Mr. Green.

I don’t know if you mentioned this in the diagnostic post but was his spine xrayed?

[FineAlready]

Consider EPSM. What is his breeding?

[st_francis]

What about kidney stones? Change in water, mineral imbalance + uti and behavior changes looks like kidney something…

[2miniB]

Given where you are and his symptoms, I’d consider testing and treating for Lyme.

I have a rescue pony, and she went through similar episodes of freaking out for no reason. She was progressing very nicely w/ her training but she’d all of a sudden spazz out on me from no where. I thought originally this was abuse related. But after treating for Lyme, she’s turned into a total sweet heart. Complete personality reversal.

[2enduraceriders]

@findeight;8033336

Just to maybe help you think about this more clearly, he is not your “best friend”. He does not understand the concept and cannot return feelings in kind to you or anybody else. You cannot take that personally, he doesn’t, he can’t. He doesn’t hold any grudges against you either, just reacts to the here and now.

How horrible simplistic and wrong. Anyone who has worked with horses and paid attention will tell you how wrong this is. If the horse only lived in the here and now how can you even train one? Horses easily develop likings/friendships to other horses, goats, dogs, and of course people. Horses that are terrified of all men can accept one certain male as fine and still be frightened of other males.

It is very easy to become a loved herd mate to a horse. It is then up to the person to show if they are above or below the horse in the “pecking order.” This is often done like in a herd by body language.

If this gelding was going to develop a “problem” from poor handling and too much feed it should have shown up long before now. I have always seen an quiet horse “wake up” within months of getting a balanced diet. I do nto see where becoming aggressive and harsh with this horse will help. It sure does sound like a pain issue.

From reading all the other responses it does sound like a choice of a bone scon or puttign him down.

Good luck OP!

[candyappy]

@Simkie;8033050

A brain tumor might not also be totally outside the realm of possibility.

That is what I was thinking as I read the OP’s first post. What about eye issues?

[todaysspecial]

[QUOTE=asterix;8032975]
Not to suggest you keep throwing money at this, but have you done a bone scan? If he has an old injury this would certainly give you a location and sense of severity.[/QUOTE]

This.

[halt]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033298]

It seems to be more of an outside-stimulus that sparks the explosions. He’ll lose his focus on me/handler and the task of walking somewhere and begin to worry until he explodes.

Behaviors don’t really happen under saddle. Every now and then we’ll have a bad day or 2 but then he’d shake it off and have a good few weeks of productivity. It is mostly in-hand that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

has he ever been punished for his behavior? not a single post of yours on the first page says that he was disciplined for his bad behavior… how many people has he kicked? how many times has he gotten loose? they do learn they can get away with things, you know.

in my experience, horses in pain are worse riding… and in contrast, are USUALLY perfect angels on the ground. i am all for ruling out pain first but everything in your post makes it sound BEHAVIORAL. it sounds like your horse has your number.

[SuzieQNutter]

I have been told about horses that turn agressive. It happens in the blink of an eye and because of a brain tumour.

One horse would get you in a corner of a stable and not let you out. If you tried to go left or right it would kick. You had to be rescued. They were diagnosed after death.

[sdlbredfan]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8033352]
Hmmmmmm. This sounds different from what I was envisioning. I thought he just went batshit all at once. But now I see that it is sort of a 3 step progression:

1. he loses focus
2. he begins to worry
3. he explodes.

This is sounding less like a nerve/spinal issue (which would, as someone said, cause him to react as if a bee stung him).

The “losing focus” part sounds like it could be a petit mal seizure, which can last from several seconds to a minute. If his brain shuts down and then suddenly comes back to the world, it could cause him to worry and then act out.

Has the vet ever mentioned partial or petit mal seizures? (They can also be called “absence seizures” since the brain takes a mini vacation from awareness.)

If this is a possibility, a brain tumor might be a likely cause. As could an injury to his head which could have happened without your knowing.

You have been an incredibly aware and reactive owner. Kudos to you for all you have done. Sadly, there may not be an answer. Sometimes even the most knowledgable of vets has to shrug his shoulders and admit that he doesn’t know what is wrong.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this possibility. I hope the scan at the clinic will provide some answers. If this was my horse, though, being sporadically and without any warning being dangerous, I would strongly consider euthanasia. Please re-read Lordhelpus’ message number 21; there are some excellent and thought-provoking points to ponder in that one.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033293]
Vision has never been suggested, I’ll have him evaluated when the vet comes for Spring shots, thanks![/QUOTE]

In my experience, vision issues can be really unpredictable and hard to diagnose. My horse is unflappable but when he had corpra nigra cysts, before we got them diagnosed and treated, I could totally see him “randomly” lashing out the way the OP is describing. Regular vet didn’t see them. Eye specialist didn’t see them. Took him to NB and he had THREE cysts- 2 in one, 1 in the other eye. I would consider exploring this route, and also perhaps the bone scan which should tell you if it’s a spin/neck bony problem.

They can also kind of come and go. Somerset would be fine and then the light would slightly change and then BAM he’d see the black spot from the cyst and panic. Once his eye adjusted-- bad to normal.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033298]

Behaviors don’t really happen under saddle. Every now and then we’ll have a bad day or 2 but then he’d shake it off and have a good few weeks of productivity. It is mostly in-hand that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

This is the fact that I keep coming back to. It seems like if the root cause of the issues is eyesight, a brain tumor, a spinal injury, ulcers, EPM, PSSM, etc., etc. it seems like they would have shown up sooner and more often under saddle rather than in hand.

Since OP stopped riding the horse a while back due to the behavior concerns, neither she nor we know if the under saddle behavior would also be deteriorating.

I have been reading this thread very thoughtfully as I have a horse who occasionally displays similar behaviors IN HAND, and the behaviors are way more likely to make an appearance if he is being handled by someone who he does not respect. However, with him it’s not a case of losing focus so much as deciding that for whatever reason, he’d like to test his handler or take advantage.

[riopony]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033298]

It seems to be more of an outside-stimulus that sparks the explosions. He’ll lose his focus on me/handler and the task of walking somewhere and begin to worry until he explodes.

Behaviors don’t really happen under saddle. Every now and then we’ll have a bad day or 2 but then he’d shake it off and have a good few weeks of productivity. It is mostly in-hand that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

This sounds like my guy… focuses on something (noise, sight, nothing) then starts to snort/ blow him self up, and then if I can’t nip in the bud he would rear/ jump, buck, kick out. He was like a live wire constantly dangling and if he sparked, watch out.

He doesn’t get as wing-nutty now that the pain is gone, but yes, he will take advantage of you. It is the barn “rule” to always talk to Chief when leading him to/from the paddock. It helps him stay focused. I think this still sounds like a pain related issue that is presenting as bad behavior though. There were some people that didn’t believe me that it was pain with my guy but I could tell that it was.

I used Dr. Grant Myhre at Myhre clinic in Rochester. He was very helpful and knowledgeable. I am still using him for another issue and is willing to call me back with questions and concerns. They have all the tools there- bone scan, MRI, surgery, etc.

[Risuena]

My money is on this being a behavioral/respect issue. I’m not convinced that there is something physical going on that instigated this or is associated with it, but from across the internet I couldn’t say for sure that there isn’t. But as others have said, if there is something physical that is making the horse react so strongly that they are dangerous on the ground, I’d expect them to be worse under saddle, or at least to have major issues under saddle, but it sounds like the horse is better being ridden. Also, I see striking out/kicking/charging on the longe line as more likely due to disrespect, not with a physical problem.

One thing that I wanted to throw out there, is that even if this behavior was caused by pain, he is still not allowed to strike out at you or kick you. It doesn’t matter if a lion actually did jump out from behind that bush, my horse may spook, but he is not allowed to trample me. Even if he were to be in pain, he’s not allowed to bite/kick/be aggressive or unsafe towards me – I would understand why he has that reaction, but it’s still not acceptable.There are boundaries that are set for safety reasons that can never be crossed (without major consequences) for any reason.

Reading Lord Helpus’ “1.he loses focus; 2. he begins to worry; 3. he explodes.” I had an imaginary conversation with my trainer. First thing he’d tell me is that if I’m riding or handling him, he needs to focus on me – he’s not allowed to focus/worry on that other thing over there. What happens if when he loses focus, you ask him to turn in a circle around you/back up/move over etc? Are you able to “get him back?”

You’ve done a thorough investigation into the physical side of things – especially since it’s now bad enough that you worry about the safety of others handling him and to consider euthanasia, I’d try to do a thorough, objective assessment of the behavior side of things. You mentioned you want him to trust you, not fear you. Correct, consistent discipline (including consistent consequences for undesired or dangerous behavior) does not = fear.

[Simkie]

I think trying this horse on gabapentin could be interesting. It’s not very expensive, it’s well tolerated and if he has nerve pain, that would address it. Additionally, if he’s got some sort of weird seizure thing, gabapentin might also address that.

It’s a total swag, but falls into the “won’t hurt, might help” category. Here’s an article about it’s use in equines, OP. Purchase at CostCo or Walgreens. Try it for a month–if he’s going to respond, he will in that period.

Radiographing his head might also be worthwhile. See if there’s anything obviously wrong in the braincase, and look at the teeth.

FWIW, I had a horse that exploded unpredictably. She’d be fine fine fine fine and then something (always something different) would set her off she she would have to leave Right Now. If you were in the way, you were going to get very, very hurt. I believe her issues were of the PTSD nature, as she’d been very badly abused, but she’d also sustained at least one head injury, so that might have had a role as well. (About six months after I brought her home, a few of her molars started coming out in pieces…they’d been broken higher up in her jaw.) I kept that mare for years as a pet, boarding her in paddock type situations, or in the pasture, and barn owners/workers were instructed that only I handled her. She was generally very, very good and careful, but I knew quite well what happened when she had an episode and I was the only one responsible for that. When I could no longer afford to keep her, I put her down. She had a very nice life with me, and taught me an incredible amount. She died on a sunny day, under a tree, with lots of treats and love. I could have never rehomed her…she had the potential to kill someone. And with how good she usually was, it was very, very easy to think that she was going to be game for more handling or whatever, or just to let your guard down.

There’s nothing wrong with euthanising a horse that’s not safe. No matter what the reason. I understand and commend you for wanting to get to the bottom of this, but if you can’t, or if you find something that’s not fixable, please don’t feel like you’ve “failed” if you choose to put him down. There’s obviously something really, really wrong. Ending that pain or intense fight of flight response isn’t a bad thing–it’s a kindness.

[Lord_Helpus]

OP,

This man lives in my area and does craniosacral work on horses. I know that he went to seminars to learn it, so there must be a group of people who perform/teach this method of helping horses.

It is a long shot, but why not contact him and ask if he knows anyone in your area who could come to look at your boy?

ETA: The man’s name and phone number:

His name is Robert Roffman

Performance Equine Bodywork 704-689-8661

[sdlbredfan]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8033692]
I think trying this horse on gabapentin could be interesting. It’s not very expensive, it’s well tolerated and if he has nerve pain, that would address it. Additionally, if he’s got some sort of weird seizure thing, gabapentin might also address that.

It’s a total swag, but falls into the “won’t hurt, might help” category. Here’s an article about it’s use in equines, OP. Purchase at CostCo or Walgreens. Try it for a month–if he’s going to respond, he will in that period.

Radiographing his head might also be worthwhile. See if there’s anything obviously wrong in the braincase, and look at the teeth.

FWIW, I had a horse that exploded unpredictably. She’d be fine fine fine fine and then something (always something different) would set her off she she would have to leave Right Now. If you were in the way, you were going to get very, very hurt. I believe her issues were of the PTSD nature, as she’d been very badly abused, but she’d also sustained at least one head injury, so that might have had a role as well. (About six months after I brought her home, a few of her molars started coming out in pieces…they’d been broken higher up in her jaw.) I kept that mare for years as a pet, boarding her in paddock type situations, or in the pasture, and barn owners/workers were instructed that only I handled her. She was generally very, very good and careful, but I knew quite well what happened when she had an episode and I was the only one responsible for that. When I could no longer afford to keep her, I put her down. She had a very nice life with me, and taught me an incredible amount. She died on a sunny day, under a tree, with lots of treats and love. I could have never rehomed her…she had the potential to kill someone. And with how good she usually was, it was very, very easy to think that she was going to be game for more handling or whatever, or just to let your guard down.

There’s nothing wrong with euthanising a horse that’s not safe. No matter what the reason. I understand and commend you for wanting to get to the bottom of this, but if you can’t, or if you find something that’s not fixable, please don’t feel like you’ve “failed” if you choose to put him down. There’s obviously something really, really wrong. Ending that pain or intense fight of flight response isn’t a bad thing–it’s a kindness.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post, very thoughtful and insightful.

[vxf111]

I was thinking “what could it hurt, try Neurontin” too.

[aka_Hermein]

Sorry if I missed it, but have you tried chiropractic for him? They can do wonders.

As far as calming supplements, I’ve had good results with MagRestore. https://shop.performanceequinenutrition.com