OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[MMurfey]

I’m going to answer a ton of you all in one post:

EPSM is highly unlikely, he’s a TB and EPSM is not common in the lighter breeds.

Kidney stones have been ruled out - we scoped, palpated, ultrasounded pretty much everything (stomach, bladder, kidneys, urethra, etc.)

When the vet comes out for Spring shots and teeth I already planned to re-test for Lyme. I’ll also have his vision & hearing evaluated and ask about possible brain tumors. I will also get a quote on nuc scans.

I will do some research on Neurontin/gabapentin.

I have done chiropractic three times and decided to stop when he was exploding while being adjusted.

And as far as a horse can’t be your best friend - those that think that have obviously never felt that kind of a connection. I look into his eyes and I see how much love he has for me. Except for when he’s having an episode - he changes and he’s no longer there.

I am not going to beat my horse… I think of him as a “sensitive soul” and believe me - shanking him with a chain and using a whip on him will only make this worse. For 3 years he responded to me calming him down and for whatever reason he is not himself right now. I know both sides of the spectrum - I have an Irish horse who requires more muscle at times. Your management strategy should not be the same for every horse you handle, horses don’t always agree with our beliefs and it is our job as their people to know them as individuals and treat them as such.

[FineAlready]

My horse is a TB and has suspected EPSM (never biopsied, but symptoms fully resolved on high fat diet). That’s why I asked his breedING (not breed). I have known several relatives of my horse that also seem to have EPSM and respond to the EPSM diet.

[MMurfey]

I’ve looked up gabapentin and I’m like what I’m reading… Basically it blocks ten nerves pain receptors, relieving chronic pain issues. The problem of the pain exists, but they can’t feel it anymore. Obviously whatever my horse has is comfort-based not life-threatening. And by taking away his pain his behavior will improve. Side effects seem to be drowsiness - but I do not HAVE to ride him so that’s fine. I’d like to ride him again, light trail rides were always fun with him, but so long as he is comfortable and happy I look forward to having him in my backyard enjoying retirement and enjoying relaxation.

[CC1]

I would do a muscle biopsy for EPSM. My TB is confirmed via biopsy and I have a new horse on the high fat diet. My boy could be extremely reactive also. He would start out relaxed (both under saddle on on the ground) and get more and more tense than explode.
My vet feels it is very under diagnosed in TBs. The biopsy is not that horrible and fairly inexpensive ($250ish). And if you find a vet who does it in a particular spot the horse can continue on turnout the next day
Does he only explode when being led out to the field? Cause I would wonder if he was getting stiff/sore from not moving all night and when he feels those painful muscles walking out to the field it elicits the explosion. Low vit e to me is also a clue. EPSM horse need a lot of vit e.

[arapaloosa_lady]

If you want to keep doing a veterinary workup on him, I’d look into taking him to a specialty clinic. You sounds like you’re working with a great vet, but there is a reason that specialists exist - they do extra training after vet school in a residency & they have all the fancy diagnostic tools at hand. They’re the people who see the most unusual cases that general vets can’t figure out (and/or just don’t have the tools to diagnose).

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8033045]
The vet that tried lunging him is an excellent horseman with that exact description and it ended in my horse tangled in the line bolting out of the barn. I just am hesitant to have someone else work it out because they could get seriously hurt.
He was on a month of previcox and robaxin, no difference.
Scoped for ulcers and his stomach was completely spotless. Treated anyways, no difference.[/QUOTE]

This type of behavior does not have an overnight fix. And horses must make mistakes in order to learn, and you were not paying your vet to train him.

[Flash44]

OP, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. You’ve ruled out many many physical causes of the behavior problems, and you absolutely refuse to consider that this horse may simply have learned aggressive behaviors from your interactions with him. We all love our horses, and we love our children too, but we would NOT tolerate this type of behavior from our kids. There are ways of changing behavior WITHOUT being inhumane or abusive. You seem like a wonderful horseperson, and a wonderful person, but you are not doing yourself or this horse any favors by absolutely refusing to address the learned behavior aspects of this situation.

Your horse does NOT need to fear you in order to respect you and behave. He only needs to see you as the boss mare. In his eyes, he is the boss and you are another animal that sometimes is tolerated and sometimes needs to be driven out of his space. Not good, but fixable.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8034117]
OP, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. You’ve ruled out many many physical causes of the behavior problems, and you absolutely refuse to consider that this horse may simply have learned aggressive behaviors from your interactions with him. We all love our horses, and we love our children too, but we would NOT tolerate this type of behavior from our kids. There are ways of changing behavior WITHOUT being inhumane or abusive. You seem like a wonderful horseperson, and a wonderful person, but you are not doing yourself or this horse any favors by absolutely refusing to address the learned behavior aspects of this situation.

Your horse does NOT need to fear you in order to respect you and behave. He only needs to see you as the boss mare. In his eyes, he is the boss and you are another animal that sometimes is tolerated and sometimes needs to be driven out of his space. Not good, but fixable.[/QUOTE]

I am in no way refusing to address the learned behavior side of it. I believe there is no way to teach him better behavior if he is in any sort if pain. Once he isn’t feeling pain, then he is more open to working with me.
I strted this thread to find suggestions on what more I can do and have gotten a lot of things that could be possible causes, including therapies to help him be more comfortable and happy.
If your opinion is that every bad behavior in a horse is learned and drugs are inhumane/whatever then that’s your opinion. My belief is that if he’s not dying then he absolutely deserves to be given something to improve his mood and qualit of life.
Once he is able to focus on something other than chronic pain then he’ll be easier to work with.

[Pegasus5]

I don’t know if it has already been mentioned, but Google “kissing spines.” The sudden and extreme manor of onset makes me think its physical too. Good luck to you and your horse

[vxf111]

I don’t think it sounds behavioral, myself. If I understand correctly, the horse is perfect 90% of the time and then spazzes out randomly. On all different handlers. Under all different circumstances. A horse that learned to “get away” with behavior would be testing the boundaries more and exploiting specific handlers who he thought were scared. He would be repeating the behavior for the same handler, under the same circumstances-- hoping for the same outcome. This horse is terrible for Mary going out of the stall on Monday and perfect for Mary going out of the stall on Tuesday. And then in 2 weeks Steve can’t get him to lunge. It doesn’t sound to me like a horse exploiting poor/weak handling.

Just because a physical cause hasn’t been pinpointed doesn’t mean it’s not there. And it seems logical that a horse could have a mental illness just like a person-- it would be virtually impossible to diagnosed.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8034199]
I don’t think it sounds behavioral, myself. If I understand correctly, the horse is perfect 90% of the time and then spazzes out randomly. On all different handlers. Under all different circumstances. A horse that learned to “get away” with behavior would be testing the boundaries more and exploiting specific handlers who he thought were scared. He would be repeating the behavior for the same handler, under the same circumstances-- hoping for the same outcome. This horse is terrible for Mary going out of the stall on Monday and perfect for Mary going out of the stall on Tuesday. And then in 2 weeks Steve can’t get him to lunge. It doesn’t sound to me like a horse exploiting poor/weak handling.

Just because a physical cause hasn’t been pinpointed doesn’t mean it’s not there. And it seems logical that a horse could have a mental illness just like a person-- it would be virtually impossible to diagnosed.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! Just this morning I led him out with the lead tossed over his neck & he happily trailed behind me. Most days are better than others but it is completely sporadic & rapidly progresses until I’ve put him in his stall or put him outside. I can see it in his eyes he’s not doing it to gain dominance. But due to some unknown cause, that is how he’s learned to react.

[RhythmNCruise]

MMurfey, your thread inspired me to get my COTH forum password reset (since I couldn’t remember it) so that I could weigh in. I apologize in advance for the novel-length reply. This is just sort of my “thing” when it comes to horses.

First of all, I want to say you’re a great owner to be so concerned about your horse’s welfare. You’ve gone above and beyond what many would do in this situation.

BUT (LOL), I’ve read and re-read your original post and have read every post in this thread from you and others, and I have to tell you what I see from the information you’ve given here. Because I’m a little concerned that your horse’s behavior is due to nothing more than “Black Stallion Syndrome”.

So, here’s what I see:

1. You “save” this poor, skinny, fungus-covered, swollen-legged, mistreated, woeful animal. I’m sure there were other horses available for you at this time, but you chose a horse that came with a LOT stacked against it. I cannot know your motivations for choosing such a horse, but I can guess because I’m a sucker for the underdog horses that I think I can change with love, kindness, and groceries too. So, I get it.

2. There is a reason that two years after retiring from the track this horse still hadn’t found a forever home and was getting passed around from dealer to dealer. Whether that reason was physical or behavioral I cannot say, but the fact is he was not easy to sell for some reason.

3. You admit the horse had basically no training past what he got as a race horse. Race horses are not known for having very good ground manners, and it is doubtful that this horse ever had any decent groundwork done with him in his entire 8 years of life before you got him. Old habits die hard.

4. Many a malnourished horse can go from docile to dangerous once they get healthy. It’s possible that the reason he was only mildly hard to deal with in that first year was because he was still recovering from his poor condition. It doesn’t mean that your feeding him the wrong things or too much or whatever, just that now that he’s healthy you’re seeing what you’ve really got.

5. You contradict yourself when you say on the one hand that the horse just unexpectedly blows a gasket, but then again you say he loses focus on you, fixates on something else, then goes nuts. This tells me a few things. One, he doesn’t see the human at his side as important as whatever else has his interest. Two, he actually might see the human as a hindrance to his own safety or comfort and so he reacts aggressively to the human’s attempts at intervention. Three, he feels like it’s up to him to deal with whatever situation he finds himself in, whether it be frightening, threatening, or just annoying.

6. Tagging on to the above: You never mention whether he gets turned out with other horses. Does he? It’s likely he never was before you got him, and in my experience, horses that don’t know how to properly socialize with other horses also don’t know how to behave/respect their humans. As herd animals, horses are always concerned about hierarchy among their companions. Your horse, whether you realize it or not, is usually sizing you (or any other handler) up to see which one of you is in charge. This is vital information to him as a prey animal.

7. Horses certainly can bond with humans, but they aren’t humans, and they don’t react to situations the way humans do. My three geldings are the best of buddies, but let the younger/playful one test his boundaries with the big bay and he’s going to get a swift and severe reminder where his place is on the totem pole. Interestingly my oldest gelding ranks over the big bay, but take the big bay out of the pasture and the young/playful horse will pester/bully the life out of my oldest horse. He’s too passive with him and hasn’t ever opened up a can of “whoop ass” on him like my big bay does. The result? Young/playful horse minds his manners around big bay (but still loves him, they play and groom each other and hang out all the time as long as he’s mannerly), but he worries the heck out of my oldest guy always roughing him up and chasing him around to play with him. Strikes at him, bites him…things he wouldn’t dream of doing to big bay. And big bay is very docile and accepting…UNTIL young/playful is rude. Then it’s slicked back ears, bared teeth, and a bout a five second butt-kicking that ends with everyone peacefully going back to behaving and no hard feelings. THAT is how equine “best friends” relate to one another.

8. If the horse was in physical pain, he’d most likely act out when being ridden. The fact that these episodes are happening when he’s being handled from the ground and seem to be directly aimed AT THE HANDLER, is a pretty good indicator that this is a behavioral/respect issue.

9. It’s not easy to swallow the possibility that the horse you rescued from a bad situation and have spent $1000’s on in vet bills is simply being a jerk and doesn’t really care if he hurts you in the process. But wouldn’t it be great to find out that he’s NOT physically in pain and that all he needs is a new perspective on the horse-human relationship to be a relaxed, content, happy critter?

10. I’d hate to think that euthanasia is a preferable choice to sending the horse to someone who might be able to adjust his attitude for the better. Yes, it might get ugly, and he might not be very happy about it at the time, but if he comes out on the other side as a horse that respects his handlers and is more at ease with life in general, isn’t that better than ending his life?

11. I’ve had horses do to me everything you describe your horse doing to his handlers. Without exception, they were CORRECTED for their behavior each and every time. Leaping in the air, striking out, and kicking at the handler is blatant disrespect and cannot be tolerated. Because you’re right, someone IS going to get badly hurt if all you’re willing to do is search for excuses instead of facing the reality. And contrary to what you think, he isn’t going to hate you for setting him straight. Trust me. My three out there rarely need correcting because they respect me completely. I can walk into the loafing shed with all three of them in there eating hay, squeeze in between them, push them around, etc. and they do not DARE put a foot wrong, even if they’re getting rowdy at one another, when I walk into the stall, everyone straightens up right away. They aren’t scared of me, they just know I’m in charge, and a lot of the time it’s like, “Oh, thank god you’re here, Mom! We needed some help finding our brains!” LOL!

12. I will suggest is that if he’s not already being turned out with other horses, it might be worth it to find suitable pasture mates for him. Horses are social, and living in isolation can do weird things to their brains.

13. f you’re not comfortable dealing with his aggression, start researching trainers who are. I understand being worried about sending him off somewhere, there are so many NUTS out there “training” horses. But there are some good horsemen/women who might be able to turn this into a very happy ending for you and this horse.

14. Finally, there ARE some horses that are simply lost causes. If physical and behavioral interventions are exhausted and the horse is still unpredictable and dangerous, putting him down is the responsible and kind thing. Just please, please, please don’t waste his life because you’re dead set against “hitting” him or letting anyone else.

[RhythmNCruise]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034209]
Exactly! Just this morning I led him out with the lead tossed over his neck & he happily trailed behind me. Most days are better than others but it is completely sporadic & rapidly progresses until I’ve put him in his stall or put him outside. I can see it in his eyes he’s not doing it to gain dominance. But due to some unknown cause, that is how he’s learned to react.[/QUOTE]
Okay, you posted this while I was composing my novel.
So, is the “look” he gets a scared look? Like something you cannot see nor hear is freaking him out? And does he just start trying to bolt or…? The leaping, striking, kicking, charging that you described earlier sounds like a focused aggressive reaction towards the handler. What does he do when he starts to come unglued? Because the picture I was getting from earlier posts was of a horse directing aggressive behavior at the handler, but this sounds different.
Horses can get “freaked out” for reasons we just cannot understand. It happens. They see, smell, or hear something, or are just feeling nutty and “invent” reasons to go bonkers (cool, windy weather, not enough exercise). They spook at things they’ve encountered and been in contact with every day and then BOOM! Scariest thing ever!! That’s just horses.

So I’m wondering if he’s just being over-exuberant and it gets scary to the handler, or is he trying to get out of dodge, or is he being aggressive?

[Countrywood]

RhtymNCruise gave thoughtful and excellent advice.

Of course continue looking for physical and give some pain relief to see if that influences behavior. But barring a brain tumor ( which is possible, if you are committed to doing all possible have it ruled out), barring that or other serious cause it could be training related. No harm in working on training while trying to solve the physical, an dif training resolves it then you will save $ and save horse from more invasive tests.

It is not cruel to disclline a horse, it is actually kind because it will save this horses life. If he continues to act out in this way, he will injure you, or a vet or farrier, or himself and how is that kind if results in him being put down, or you getting hurt?

I’ve dealt with some horrible behavior in horses and I know how hard it is to deal with. And I’m a five foot two nothing, we have to have leverage such as a leadshank and chain over nose in certain situations. That said I prefer NH for getting at the root of behavior (plus it’s fun, it really is)

I’ts lovely that he follows you and bonds with you which makes him a good candidate for NH groundwork. A good NH trainer also teaches boundaries and discipline but it is done with a rope halter, not a lead shank and a rope halter is an excellent training tool, but the best training tool is the person at the end of the lead shank.

Imo, you would be doing yourself and this horse a great service to work with a trainer on the ground with him

Best of luck , your dedication is commendable.

[Posting_Trot]

I think RhythmnCruise’s two posts above have a lot of interesting things to say.

The part of the OP’s discussion of the horse’s problems that I find most significant with regard to pain is that these episodes have all happened not when the horse is being ridden but rather when the horse has been led, or has been worked on by a chiropractor.

So, a couple more questions:
How much is the horse being ridden at this point? In other words, are the problems only showing themselves on the ground even though the horse is still being ridden, or is the horse no longer being ridden and therefore he’s rarely had the opportunity to manifest the problems while being ridden?

If the horse is not currently being ridden, when was he last ridden and what is the relationship (if any) between the behavior and being ridden? Have you considered putting the horse back into consistent–not necessarily hard–work, if he’s not currently being worked? (I’m asking this because my experience with my TB is that she needs work–she needs the discipline, the focused attention and the structure. When she’s out of work she gets into trouble. It’s sort of a Border Collie mentality).

Does the horse act up when the trimmer or farrier works on his feet?

Can you, in a simple list, state what tests the vet(s) have done on the horse and if any showed any abnormality?

[Lord_Helpus]

Is the problem physical or behavioral?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Is the horse white and gold or blue and black?

The answer lies somewhere along a sprectrum and peoples’ view of the problem depends on which end of the spectrum they are viewing it from.

[Ruth0552]

In my experience behavioral issues develop slowly, over time, with inappropriate handling. From the posts I’ve read, this pretty much came out of the blue, after a series of bladder/urinary issues, which are practically unheard of in horses.

I know what a lot of the posters are thinking: woman gets horse, woman coddles horsey, horsey flips out, woman says oh, horsey is scared, but horsey really needed was a stern talking to or a spanking. I’ve seen it a million times and we’ve read that story a million times on COTH: basically someone is over-horsed and refuses to accept that their horse is misbehaving. I don’t get that from the OP’s posts, nor from the situation and circumstances presented. And I agree with the OP: not every horse can be trained the same way. You have to willing to adjust your training to fit the horse. It’s unfortunate that so many middle-aged women buy horses that are too much for them, get taken advantage of by the horse and/or the trainer, and end up ruining a horse that was previously a solid citizen. But it really doesn’t sound like that is what is going on here.

[DJohn]

RhythmnCruise,

I read your entire post nodding my head. Worth a password reset, for sure! :yes:

[findeight]

I have a question for OP. Do you have this horse’s JC name and/or tatoo number?

Even though it’s back quite a few years, his race record should still be available along with other information about that career. Where he raced, how often, how many owners, how many trainers, any gaps in activity? Often getting more of a backstory on a horse can offer very helpful hints about behavior or physical conditions being newly emerged or long standing problems.

If you don’t have papers or the registered name, can you post the tattoo # here? Easy to trace then run down the race record. Worth a shot here.

[MMurfey]

RhythmNCruise - To reply all of your points…

1. I wasn’t looking for a project at the time but my mother insisted I at least look at him. I felt bad for his situation and his eye and personality made me decide to give it a shot. I originally planned to just clean him up, fatten him up, and sell him to someone who was looking for a project. I unfortunately fell in love with him in the process.

2. I honestly think his rough shape and the scummy dealers he was owned by are what detoured people away from him.

3. I have no idea what he did in the 2 years between the track and me. When I began to work with him it was clear he didn’t understand much of anything.

4. The first year was all about working out the kinks and cleaning him up (I sort of mentioned we had a rough start in my original post). The next 2 years he was of-weight, healthy (with exception of the occasional abscess or laceration which OTTBs seem to be so good at acquiring), and we really made a lot of progress in his training. So I would’ve seen the misbehaviors long before now.

5. I don’t mean to contradict myself. It happens both ways. He’ll either wind up first or just spontaneously combust.

6. Currently he does not have a buddy. When he did have a pasture-mate he was constantly ripping shoes, getting abscesses, and getting mysterious lacerations and punctures. Currently there isn’t a horse in the barn that would pair well with him, but I’ve also noticed a tremendous drop in those little injuries.

7. He’s always been very stiff and some days would feel a little out of balance, but he didn’t buck or try to get me off. Once in a while he’d bronc, but nothing out of the ordinary.

8. I don’t think he is intentionally trying to hurt anyone. I’m the only one he’s made contact with (I mentioned it in the first post) and it was more of I got in the way of his flying legs. You KNOW when they mean it.
   Given the correlation of behavior with physical issues is what points me toward there being something to be slowly driving him crazy.

9. Honestly I don’t think it will come to euthanasia. This thread has given me a lot of hope toward finding an answer. As far as giving him to someone else I can’t morally run the risk of him getting worse, hurting someone, or getting put down anyways or sent off to slaughter.

10. I guess I haven’t stuck up for my own handling enough… I’m not just letting him get away with it. I put my shoulder into him, dig in my heels, try to stand my ground, etc. But at 5’4" I’m somewhat easy to tip over and I get out of the way if the legs start flying. I’m not being completely passive, I promise.

11. Again, there currently isn’t another horse in the barn for him to share a paddock with. He is next to other horses though.

12. I do want to work with a trainer at some point. I just don’t want to overload a scattered mind just yet. Addressing the physical issue will help him be more open to working with someone.

13. I’m not against hitting him, I do when necessary. Earlier I said I would shank him or whip him. Chains are used properly with pressure, not shanking, and whipping him will only exacerbate the flight mode.

To address your other post:
-When he winds up first he puffs up, prances, then explodes. His eye will look nervous, anxious, scared, frustrated
-He comes toward the handler, but the only time he has made contact was the one time he kicked me in the thigh (mentioned earlier). No one has actually gotten hurt by him
-Over-exuberance is a good way to describe it. If he does end up hurting it I honestly don’t think he will necessarily intend to.