OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=findeight;8034489]
I have a question for OP. Do you have this horse’s JC name and/or tatoo number?

Even though it’s back quite a few years, his race record should still be available along with other information about that career. Where he raced, how often, how many owners, how many trainers, any gaps in activity? Often getting more of a backstory on a horse can offer very helpful hints about behavior or physical conditions being newly emerged or long standing problems.

If you don’t have papers or the registered name, can you post the tattoo # here? Easy to trace then run down the race record. Worth a shot here.[/QUOTE]

Adcat Lane - his tattoo is also perfectly clear I just don’t know it off the top of my head. He raced at Tampa Bay and Suffolk. Won 2 out of 49 runs. Not sure why they kept trying.

Race history:
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=6803927&registry=T

Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/adcat+lane

YouTube video (Hunter green(?) silks, wait for the end):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Z6z2MEB98

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Ruth0552;8034302]
In my experience behavioral issues develop slowly, over time, with inappropriate handling. From the posts I’ve read, this pretty much came out of the blue, after a series of bladder/urinary issues, which are practically unheard of in horses.

I know what a lot of the posters are thinking: woman gets horse, woman coddles horsey, horsey flips out, woman says oh, horsey is scared, but horsey really needed was a stern talking to or a spanking. I’ve seen it a million times and we’ve read that story a million times on COTH: basically someone is over-horsed and refuses to accept that their horse is misbehaving. I don’t get that from the OP’s posts, nor from the situation and circumstances presented. And I agree with the OP: not every horse can be trained the same way. You have to willing to adjust your training to fit the horse. It’s unfortunate that so many middle-aged women buy horses that are too much for them, get taken advantage of by the horse and/or the trainer, and end up ruining a horse that was previously a solid citizen. But it really doesn’t sound like that is what is going on here.[/QUOTE]

Haha - I was hesitant to even start this thread because I assumed I might get some people assuming it’s just another typical OTTB training tragedy. But trust me, I can handle this horse, I just want to make it easier because I can’t always be the one handling him.
Also, I’m not middle-aged, I’m 23. I got him when I was 19. I don’t know if that makes all this sound better or worse!

[Marla_100]

This is a head scratcher, for sure. OP I’m gonna throw some ideas out there for you to consider:

If you now have a healthy, young , re-active TB who’s being stalled (due to weather) or normally, I’m wondering if his lifestyle isn’t interfering with his formerly quieter self.

Have you tried taking him off ALL GRAIN and just feed soaked hay pellets?
As someone who has a gelding who is re-active to SOY and GRAIN, I would try this for a couple weeks and see how he responds.

Also is it possible, he’s wound up from so much stall time and no work?

I had a horse who was moved to a new facility when he was 4 yrs. old. He went from 24/7 turnout to barely any or very little turnout. Within weeks he was acting up whenever barn staff went to turn him out. I was told he was pretty much walking on two hind legs and jumping all over the place. The girls handling his turnout were afraid of him. I offered to work with him myself to quickly halt this new behavior. Whenever I showed up to take him out, he realized the antics were a no go w/ mean old me. Back to decent behavior, for today. Then a few weeks would go by and I would find two lunge whips beside his stall door when I showed up. Clue that there were problems again. Again, I’d work with him and he’d prance and threaten to blow, but mainly kept his cool. What I learned was that this horse could not handle being stalled for 21 hrs. per day, eating full grain meals with little work and stay mentally balanced. So we moved back to a barn w/ 24/7 turnout and my boy got his brain back.

So I’m wondering if what you’re experiencing could be similar in that he’s getting too much good feed, no work, less turnout, no social life(which is good relaxed down time) and your guy is exploding with too much energy and no where else to blow it off.

Many OTTB are Smart, high energy, super athletic, hard working and re-active on good feed. Maybe this is your boy and he just needs a lifestyle change.
Remember…Firm but Fair.

[findeight]

Well, I would say he was sound enough judging by the number of starts a year…he did only have 3 starts as a 3 yo but may have started late. 13 to 17 starts a year until he turned 7 sounds like a warrior.

Also sounds like he was well enough treated, not abused. Not treated like a pet but not whopped up side of the head all the time either. Perhaps somebody remembers him from the track days?

Whatever happened, happened after he was 7 and retired. Maybe you can figure out where he went from the track, handling wise that might be the answer to some of this. Might also be where he suffered some type injury.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;8034544]
This is a head scratcher, for sure. OP I’m gonna throw some ideas out there for you to consider:

If you now have a healthy, young , re-active TB who’s being stalled (due to weather) or normally, I’m wondering if his lifestyle isn’t interfering with his formerly quieter self.

Have you tried taking him off ALL GRAIN and just feed soaked hay pellets?
As someone who has a gelding who is re-active to SOY and GRAIN, I would try this for a couple weeks and see how he responds.

Also is it possible, he’s wound up from so much stall time and no work?

I had a horse who was moved to a new facility when he was 4 yrs. old. He went from 24/7 turnout to barely any or very little turnout. Within weeks he was acting up whenever barn staff went to turn him out. I was told he was pretty much walking on two hind legs and jumping all over the place. The girls handling his turnout were afraid of him. I offered to work with him myself to quickly halt this new behavior. Whenever I showed up to take him out, he realized the antics were a no go w/ mean old me. Back to decent behavior, for today. Then a few weeks would go by and I would find two lunge whips beside his stall door when I showed up. Clue that there were problems again. Again, I’d work with him and he’d prance and threaten to blow, but mainly kept his cool. What I learned was that this horse could not handle being stalled for 21 hrs. per day, eating full grain meals with little work and stay mentally balanced. So we moved back to a barn w/ 24/7 turnout and my boy got his brain back.

So I’m wondering if what you’re experiencing could be similar in that he’s getting too much good feed, no work, less turnout, no social life(which is good relaxed down time) and your guy is exploding with too much energy and no where else to blow it off.

Many OTTB are Smart, high energy, super athletic, hard working and re-active on good feed. Maybe this is your boy and he just needs a lifestyle change.
Remember…Firm but Fair.[/QUOTE]

His routine over the last 4 years has been fairly consistent. Turnout for at least 8 hours/day and when the weather is bad he stays in.
I give him a very very small amount of grain at the moment, with a scoop of hay pellets. It wouldn’t hurt to cut grain completely.
He’s actually been better having the winter off. Much more relaxed with less misbehaviors, but once in a while they’ll still happen. Not as often though.

I am moving back to VT permanently in May and for the first month or so he will have to leave at the barn he was at this past summer. As soon as possible I plan to build a barn that has dutch doors going out of the stalls to the paddocks. So he has the option to come in and out 24/7. Unless the weather is awful then I have the option of keeping him inside. But even so he’ll get more turnout in that setup.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=findeight;8034552]
Well, I would say he was sound enough judging by the number of starts a year…he did only have 3 starts as a 3 yo but may have started late. 13 to 17 starts a year until he turned 7 sounds like a warrior.

Also sounds like he was well enough treated, not abused. Not treated like a pet but not whopped up side of the head all the time either. Perhaps somebody remembers him from the track days?

Whatever happened, happened after he was 7 and retired. Maybe you can figure out where he went from the track, handling wise that might be the answer to some of this. Might also be where he suffered some type injury.[/QUOTE]

I’ve tried to find out his 2-year mystery period and have not been able to find a single clue. The dealer I got him from got him about 2 months prior to me purchasing him and only said she’d gotten him from a TB dealer. She traded for him or something like that.

[Simkie]

I’d really do whatever you possibly can to get him out 24/7 and see how he changes. Eight hours out just isn’t anywhere NEAR enough for some horses. Move him, pay more, whatever it takes. 24/7 outside would be MY top priority at this point in time, especially while you figure out where to go next medically, were I in your shoes. He CAN stay out in bad weather.

By the race record, this a horse used to WORKING–and harder than we ever make them work in sport horse land. Keeping him in a stall, minimal turnout and no work might just be very, very bad for him.

[vxf111]

I may have misinterpreted but I thought the behavior started during a period when the horse was NOT being ridden and has continued through a period of the same. So we don’t know if he’d also be spastic under saddle because he’s never been ridden DURING the period of random spastic behavior?! Is that not correct, OP?

[vxf111]

I agree that lots more turnout and trying to find an appropriate pasture buddy (even if it’s a mini or a goat or something) can’t hurt and might help.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8034609]
I may have misinterpreted but I thought the behavior started during a period when the horse was NOT being ridden and has continued through a period of the same. So we don’t know if he’d also be spastic under saddle because he’s never been ridden DURING the period of random spastic behavior?! Is that not correct, OP?[/QUOTE]

Try rereading the first post…
The behavior began almost a year ago and progressed through the summer. During that time he was working. In the fall (October-ish) I decided I give him time off. Since then I’ve walked him under saddle twice and he was very good. Just very stiff. I continue to do leg and neck stretches in the aisle while I’m grooming him.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034616]
Try rereading the first post…
The behavior began almost a year ago and progressed through the summer. During that time he was working. In the fall (October-ish) I decided I give him time off. Since then I’ve walked him under saddle twice and he was very good. Just very stiff. I continue to do leg and neck stretches in the aisle while I’m grooming him.[/QUOTE]

I did try reading it. I’ve clearly read your posts and several times contributed to this thread. And, frankly… I’ve been trying to help so I don’t understand the rudeness.

With all the back and forth posts, I still wasn’t 100% sure WHEN he went out of work and if it coincided with the bad behavior. Your first posts says the behavior started in Spring 2014 but you never say whether he was still under saddle at that point. It says you later moved him but nothing about when you stopped riding. It seemed like he had some vet issues diagnosed at this time and it wasn’t obvious to me whether you were still riding him through that or not. I frankly did not first the first post terribly clear about the chronology in terms of when he was UNDER SADDLE (as compared to where he was, you clearly describe when he moved from place to place but I didn’t understand when you stopped riding him). Instead of being sarcastic, I suppose you could have just answered the question if you still care to have people try to speculate/brainstorm.

So that prompts me to ask… how was he under saddle when the behavior started? Did it ever happen under saddle? With the same frequency/intensity?

[HorseKrazy]

I really liked Rhythmandcruise’s post as well. It was very thoughtful, and addressed a lot of the same training issues that I was thinking of - keep in mind I’m still curious to see if there is something physical brewing. The one thing that did stand out to me was your response to him being turned out with other horses. Your horse having pretty consistent “battle wounds” from turnout with other horses can be indicative of a horse that doesn’t understand body language and herd dinamincs, or at the very least doesn’t respect it. That definitely could translate into ground handling issues.

Also, with his inconsistent and explosive behavior in hand, the last thing I would do with this horse is let my guard down and “lead” him with the rope “hanging over his neck”. You have absolutely no control. Not even the illusion of control. That inconsisten type of handling alone could be enough to allow a challenging horse to try and pull rank.

One more thing, regarding your petite stature. there is no way I would handle this unpredictable horse without a very long lead line, a chain (even if just loosely looped over his nose),possibly a helmet, and a fairly long “stick” to enforce my personal space if I’m being challenged.

I truly hope you find find a resolution and post it here! good luck with your diagnostics abs keep safe!

[todaysspecial]

I agree with HorseKrazy, please have everyone wear a helmet while leading your lad in or out. I’m confident that with all of this great advice, you’ll get some answers… But we lost a fine member of this forum some years ago, a very experienced horsewoman, just from a horse being a bit of a turkey while being led.

[halt]

the more the OP posts the more certain i am it is behavioral and this is a classic black stallion syndrome poster…

never once has she mentioned the horse has been corrected for his behavior… it’s truly sounding like he is just being a bully to everyone who handles him.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034209]
Exactly! Just this morning I led him out with the lead tossed over his neck & he happily trailed behind me. Most days are better than others but it is completely sporadic & rapidly progresses until I’ve put him in his stall or put him outside. I can see it in his eyes he’s not doing it to gain dominance. But due to some unknown cause, that is how he’s learned to react.[/QUOTE]

You’ve described this type of scenario in different contexts, and to me, this is the synopsis of this horse as you’ve described him.

You have gotten many suggestions of things to check on physically, and you’ve already done a fair amount.

Physical: Given what you’ve done to date and all the possible causes suggested in this thread, I would be looking at taking this horse to the most sophisticated veterinary specialist facility you can find - regardless of location - one with all the equipment and multiple veterinarians who have different discipline specialties and are well-recognized in their field - and tell them cost is no object. Leave him there as long as they want him (you can visit multiple times a day). Let them turn him inside out to find a physical cause of pain, and perhaps of behavior. (Such as ESMS west of Fort Worth, Texas.)

Mental/Training: From what you say I suspect the cause is physical. I wouldn’t bother with training or training explanations at all - it’s unfair and unproductive if the problem is inside the horse’s body.

I have had to realize that it is as possible for a horse to be unsound mentally - for biological reasons - just as it is for a horse to be physically unsound because of a chronic physical condition. Not just the brain, but the balance of hormones (adrenaline etc) and everything else in the body of a living creature can have profound effects on behavior.

Whether or not a biologically-caused mental unsoundness can be fixed is another story. Scientifically we don’t know nearly as much about the mental side as we do the physical, and that’s true in people as well. But the vets could tell you about what they find - hopefully. This is a similar situation to whether a laminitis or other condition can be cured and/or maintained, effect on the horse, etc.

That line of logic would be the basis of my thinking and decisions, were I in your shoes.

If a full inside-out veterinary workup is not financially possible, I would simply proceed with the assumption that the horse has a biologically-caused mental unsoundness, and decide what to do from there, with love and great concern for both the horse’s welfare, and that of those who handle him.

I would make some kind of plan and provision for him in the event I became physically unable to make decisions for him myself (or even died). His future without you isn’t going to be good - or quick.

Good luck with this horse. I am glad he had the great good fortune to have come to such a caring, sensitive and open-minded owner. He needed you - and always will. :yes: ((( many big hugs )))

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034066]
I’m going to answer a ton of you all in one post:

EPSM is highly unlikely, he’s a TB and EPSM is not common in the lighter breeds.

Kidney stones have been ruled out - we scoped, palpated, ultrasounded pretty much everything (stomach, bladder, kidneys, urethra, etc.)

When the vet comes out for Spring shots and teeth I already planned to re-test for Lyme. I’ll also have his vision & hearing evaluated and ask about possible brain tumors. I will also get a quote on nuc scans.

I will do some research on Neurontin/gabapentin.

I have done chiropractic three times and decided to stop when he was exploding while being adjusted.

And as far as a horse can’t be your best friend - those that think that have obviously never felt that kind of a connection. I look into his eyes and I see how much love he has for me. Except for when he’s having an episode - he changes and he’s no longer there.

I am not going to beat my horse… I think of him as a “sensitive soul” and believe me - shanking him with a chain and using a whip on him will only make this worse. For 3 years he responded to me calming him down and for whatever reason he is not himself right now. I know both sides of the spectrum - I have an Irish horse who requires more muscle at times. Your management strategy should not be the same for every horse you handle, horses don’t always agree with our beliefs and it is our job as their people to know them as individuals and treat them as such.[/QUOTE]

In this post, what stands out to me is the sixth paragraph “I have done chiropractic three times and decided to stop when he exploding while being adjusted”. Does that not strike you as possibly having a pain experience?

[boosma47]

Rhythmncruise nailed what I’ve thought throughout this thread. You have done all due diligence as regards your horse’s health, except for a bone scan and brain MRI, if possible.

Having a mare who, at age 5 was dangerous enough that I considered euthing, I contacted, as a last resort, a local woman who was an acolyte of Buck Brannaman. Mind you, if that didn’t work out, the mare would go.

In her particular case, she was beligerent, impossible to lead, at times mindless, though I could ride her with little problem, except some silliness.

Trainer and I worked together on her. Mare was agressive to other horses in turnout and we determined early on that Boo needed to be put in her place by a horse before any reasonable progress could be made. The contretemps with a dominant appy mare lasted 15 seconds of squealing and hard double barrel kicking, after which Boo backed down.

Only after this could her training begin. She was pushy, smart, testing all the time, striking out, kicking out when under pressure and reactive.

Once we had her mind using consistent,firm and progressing challenges on the ground, she became a sweet, happy and useful mare.

She was dealing with pain issues (locking stifles), which made her proctective, but she had to learn to not take her fear of pain out on us.

These are not your horse’s issues, particularly, but I just wanted to emphasize that trust was paramount in her development. It would seem that your horse has learned, somewhere along the way, that trust is not something he has, inspite of your excellent intentions.

Trust=respect, here.

Something I would have high on my list to try to help him would be to pull his shoes and turn him out with a couple of others. They will play. He will get nicks and bites, perhaps kicks. He will run, pee, just be a horse. He doesn’t need shoes in winter, he can deal, most horses can.

A last question…has he shown any of this behaviour when not being led? As if, perhaps, when turned out, he gets a twinge of pain? Have you round penned him?

I hope things get ironed out for you both and please keep us posted on his progress. There has been lots of good advice for you.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=HorseKrazy;8034624]
…
One more thing, regarding your petite stature. there is no way I would handle this unpredictable horse without a very long lead line, a chain (even if just loosely looped over his nose),possibly a helmet, and a fairly long “stick” to enforce my personal space if I’m being challenged.
…[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. You can protect yourself (and anyone else handling him) and still love him. I’m tall-ish, and I’d be doing all of this, even for my best buddy (because when he’s “left” his brain he isn’t that horse).

You said he charges you - you need to strategize your routes with him to give you the most opportunity to immediately get to a safe place where he can’t get to you. Even if you have to let him go once you’re under the fence, or wherever it is. No human is quick enough to dance around out of the reach of any horse on the attack - especially a horse that is not in his right mind.

You can love him and stay safe, too.

[RhythmNCruise]

MMurfey, thanks for helping me see the picture more clearly.
I have to say though, that your assumption that he’s not intentionally trying to harm his handlers does not go along with this in your original post:

He also began to act dangerously on the lunge line - turning towards me, striking out, coming at me.

That’s pretty blatant aggressive behavior towards you, isn’t it? I don’t care WHY he was being aggressive, he needs to know that if things aren’t peachy (even if he’s hurting), turning and charging/striking at YOU is absolutely NOT the way he’s allowed to react.

Regardless of the circumstances, submissive/respectful horses will do pretty much anything they can to avoid irritating their dominant companions. They don’t bump into them, crowd them, strike out at them, or charge at them. It’s the dominant horses that do these things to their submissive companions. The fact that your horse has so little regard for his handlers when he gets one of these wild hairs up his butt says he really has no respect. Because even if there is a physical cause triggering the outbursts, he has to learn that he still has to be careful and considerate around people. A respectful horse will do everything it can NOT to hurt its handlers. Your horse is, at best, indifferent to hurting the person handling him and at worst (based on the quote from you above), intentionally threatens his handlers.

So, I guess my point is, yes, it could be a physical issue, and solving that will definitely be a fabulous thing. But in the meantime, he has to learn that no matter WHAT is going on to trigger his outbursts, it is unacceptable for his reaction to endanger the people handling him. There must be zero tolerance for that. Because pain or not, his reaction TO the pain is still a BEHAVIORAL issue.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=boosma47;8034708]
… It would seem that your horse has learned, somewhere along the way, that trust is not something he has, inspite of your excellent intentions.

Trust=respect, here.
…[/QUOTE]

Or not, if it is biologically based. If the horse’s mind is really not fully connected, he won’t absorb training. Then it’s not really about trust simply because the brain isn’t working. He may trust in his right mind, but the “wrong” mind disconnects all the learning and signals.

One way to get a feel for if his brain works at all during this episodes is if he shows he remembers what happened during an episode. And/or the same triggers set it off.