OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

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[QUOTE=Calamber;8034702]
In this post, what stands out to me is the sixth paragraph “I have done chiropractic three times and decided to stop when he exploding while being adjusted”. Does that not strike you as possibly having a pain experience?[/QUOTE]

or… it could be the sign of a belligerent horse feeling like he can strike out at any handler… he has to be HANDLED in order to be worked on w/ a chiropractor and thus far all OP has proven is that no one can handle this horse - not the vet, not barn workers, not her mother… without him turning rogue.

if he really did explode while being adjusted, don’t you think chiro and vet would be able to pinpoint the issue and suggest something??

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8034702]
In this post, what stands out to me is the sixth paragraph “I have done chiropractic three times and decided to stop when he exploding while being adjusted”. Does that not strike you as possibly having a pain experience?[/QUOTE]

Yes and I am still exploring pain. Spinal pain and nerve pinching in the spine has always been high on the list - I really liked the suggestion of Glabapentin

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8034692]
You’ve described this type of scenario in different contexts, and to me, this is the synopsis of this horse as you’ve described him.

You have gotten many suggestions of things to check on physically, and you’ve already done a fair amount.

Physical: Given what you’ve done to date and all the possible causes suggested in this thread, I would be looking at taking this horse to the most sophisticated veterinary specialist facility you can find - regardless of location - one with all the equipment and multiple veterinarians who have different discipline specialties and are well-recognized in their field - and tell them cost is no object. Leave him there as long as they want him (you can visit multiple times a day). Let them turn him inside out to find a physical cause of pain, and perhaps of behavior. (Such as ESMS west of Fort Worth, Texas.)

Mental/Training: From what you say I suspect the cause is physical. I wouldn’t bother with training or training explanations at all - it’s unfair and unproductive if the problem is inside the horse’s body.

I have had to realize that it is as possible for a horse to be unsound mentally - for biological reasons - just as it is for a horse to be physically unsound because of a chronic physical condition. Not just the brain, but the balance of hormones (adrenaline etc) and everything else in the body of a living creature can have profound effects on behavior.

Whether or not a biologically-caused mental unsoundness can be fixed is another story. Scientifically we don’t know nearly as much about the mental side as we do the physical, and that’s true in people as well. But the vets could tell you about what they find - hopefully. This is a similar situation to whether a laminitis or other condition can be cured and/or maintained, effect on the horse, etc.

That line of logic would be the basis of my thinking and decisions, were I in your shoes.

If a full inside-out veterinary workup is not financially possible, I would simply proceed with the assumption that the horse has a biologically-caused mental unsoundness, and decide what to do from there, with love and great concern for both the horse’s welfare, and that of those who handle him.

I would make some kind of plan and provision for him in the event I became physically unable to make decisions for him myself (or even died). His future without you isn’t going to be good - or quick.

Good luck with this horse. I am glad he had the great good fortune to have come to such a caring, sensitive and open-minded owner. He needed you - and always will. :yes: ((( many big hugs )))[/QUOTE]

Thank you, your interpretation of the Physical and Mental aspects are exactly how I feel about this.

From everything I’ve been given for advice:
*More turnout - he isn’t able to stay out 24/7 at the moment, but it is what I plan to offer him in the near future
*Find him a friend - I agree with someone else that he may not have good heard instincts, at this time I don’t have anyone to pair him with but will always keep it in mind in case the right one comes along.
*Have the vet re-test for Lyme, evaluate vision & hearing, discuss possible brain tumors, get a quote for MRI and/or bone scan
*Try him on Glabapentin - to relieve pain
*Locate a trainer to start working with him on the ground

I am in no way saying that my methods of handling him are not going to change, so I’m sorry if anyone gets frustrated at that. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m taking everything into consideration.
Before any ground work could be productive he needs to be comfortable and less aware of physical issues. So once he’s given a chance to be pain free it will make working with him a lot easier.

[boosma47]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8034724]
Or not, if it is biologically based. If the horse’s mind is really not fully connected, he won’t absorb training. Then it’s not really about trust simply because the brain isn’t working. He may trust in his right mind, but the “wrong” mind disconnects all the learning and signals.

One way to get a feel for if his brain works at all during this episodes is if he shows he remembers what happened during an episode. And/or the same triggers set it off.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, I agree, but one needs to sort out all possibilities, IMHO

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8034724]
Or not, if it is biologically based. If the horse’s mind is really not fully connected, he won’t absorb training. Then it’s not really about trust simply because the brain isn’t working. He may trust in his right mind, but the “wrong” mind disconnects all the learning and signals. [/QUOTE]

Yes, agreed

[FineAlready]

I’m going to suggest, AGAIN, that you at least consider the possibility of EPSM. Despite what you might think, it DOES occur in TBs, and you horse has a lot of symptoms of it. I would not just dismiss the idea if I were you. Especially since the treatment for it is pretty simple.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=FineAlready;8034794]
I’m going to suggest, AGAIN, that you at least consider the possibility of EPSM. Despite what you might think, it DOES occur in TBs, and you horse has a lot of symptoms of it. I would not just dismiss the idea if I were you. Especially since the treatment for it is pretty simple.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, yes I’ll consider it. The symptoms don’t eclxactly match but I can ask. He’s not having tremors, shaking, or tying-up. But I will ask!

[Marla_100]

OP, go back last year- early 2014 when this all started. Your mother was handling him for turnout and turnin. Is your mother an experienced horsewoman? How did she react when he misbehaved with her? Did she over-react and whomp on him? beat him? ignore him?

I keep wondering if he hasn’t become DEFENSIVE whenever he acts up because “someone” (mom, maybe) over-reacted and if he can’t get away when he looses his brain, then he’s ready to fight as in flight or fight.

Maybe the next barn shortly after had young less experienced handlers for turnout and again when he acted up on turnout he was punished severely and now he’s come to expect that when he misbehaves?

Inconsistent/poor handling will really mess up flighty, nervous horses. Like the old saying “Everytime someone handles a horse, they’re either training OR
untraining.”

Perhaps your smart, reactive, nervous, flighty boy is badly confused/mistrusting on how he will be treated by those humans handling with him.

Maybe you need to start at square one and go back to the very basics of ground manners with him in addition to the changes in his lifestyle.

[FineAlready]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034798]
Sorry, yes I’ll consider it. The symptoms don’t eclxactly match but I can ask. He’s not having tremors, shaking, or tying-up. But I will ask![/QUOTE]

It’s not always that dramatic. Mine didn’t have extreme symptoms, but was very hard muscled, crabby, and had trouble with the farrier.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

OP, I don’t know if this will help much, but I remember reading some years ago about a very rare condition in some horses where they literally can’t stand to have any pressure on the poll at all – something to do with the nerves there. So halters, bridles, etc. all cause tremendous pain for them. As I recall, they acted much like yours does. I think it had to be diagnosed via MRI, and since you’re thinking about one anyway, you might ask the vets.

And some horses are just - strange. I trained a young Arab/Percheron cross that would simply ‘check out’ at odd moments. He wasn’t being young and flighty, it was just literally that one moment his brain was there, and the next, there was no brain at all. You could tell. My instructor said you could see the spark going out in his eyes when he did it. Episodes would last anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes. No matter what you did - kick, whip, try to get him to change gaits or do something different - it all went unanswered and ignored. I always suspected something neurological, but the owner and instructor always thought it was behavioral. He was sold to a second-level rider and it took two years and two BNTs to get him remotely ride-able for her. I don’t know where he is now. So yes, I think some horses are just wired differently.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=RhythmNCruise;8034718]
That’s pretty blatant aggressive behavior towards you, isn’t it? I don’t care WHY he was being aggressive, he needs to know that if things aren’t peachy (even if he’s hurting), turning and charging/striking at YOU is absolutely NOT the way he’s allowed to react. [/QUOTE]

There are times when it’s at least understandable for a horse to react in a big, violent way and while it’s not something I would ever encourage, a pass might be granted. It’s not like a horse that’s in extreme pain is going to LEARN–they’re going to revert back to their very base fight or flight instincts, and I really don’t know if you can change that response.

Case in point: I had a wonderful gelding who would have never, ever had any thought in his head about acting aggressively or challenging a human. He was kicked and fractured his shoulder, and after the proscribed amount of time, I put him on a longe line to see how he was.

When I asked him to trot, he tried to kick me, and when I pushed him back out on the circle, he came at me with his teeth.

TOTALLY out of character for that horse. And NOT a behavioral issue. He was IN PAIN. And while the vets said he should have better by then, he wasn’t at all and needed a LOT more time. Treating his outburst as a behavioral problem would have 100% been the wrong thing to do–he was in no place to learn, and the problem wasn’t behavioral, even though the action was.

Yes, it would have been nice if he’d not gone into fight mode, but when we remove their ability to flee and push them to the point when they’re in flight or fight, what are they going to do??

[Shorehorse]

Just my two cents…

When I started reading your post I thought it sounded like a behavioral issue was likely. Than I read more of your posts. There does seem to be a physical problem here. I think there are 3 likely culprits that if it were me I would be exploring further.

1. difficulty urinating, reacting during a chiropractic adjustment, reacting on a lunge line sounds very likely of pain in the lower back, spinal or nervous. I would have him at a a clinic for a scan (if money was not an issue). If there is a trapped nerve of some kind the Chiro adjustment can definitely cause more pain and cause him to react

I once knew of a horse who was a perfect gentleman for many years of his life. Used as a western pleasure trail horse. When owners daughter turned him into a jumper it aggravated an old injury in his back and there was a complete personality change. Not as bad as yours, but definite change.

2. EPM can happen in any breed. Some breeds are more susceptible but that doesn’t mean any cant get it. I know it’s going to sound like I have a story for everything but I also knew of a warmblood with advanced EPM who was more than a little squirrely prior to his diagnosis and would seem to rear and buck out of nowhere.

3. lymes disease. Even if titers were ok last they were checked, I would recheck. Levels will change as the disease progresses.

Regardless, Im sorry for what you are going through…

[Hilary]

I had forgotten about the urination issue which doesn’t fit with this option, but I did know of a horse who had a chip in his stifle that was benign about 97% of the time. The other 3% was when the chip would move and be excruciatingly painful, causing the horse to freak out. He could have something similar that doesn’t hurt most of the time, but when it does? it really does.

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Hilary;8035022]
I had forgotten about the urination issue which doesn’t fit with this option, but I did know of a horse who had a chip in his stifle that was benign about 97% of the time. The other 3% was when the chip would move and be excruciatingly painful, causing the horse to freak out. He could have something similar that doesn’t hurt most of the time, but when it does? it really does.[/QUOTE]

That would explain the spontaneity of it!

[MMurfey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8034896]
There are times when it’s at least understandable for a horse to react in a big, violent way and while it’s not something I would ever encourage, a pass might be granted. It’s not like a horse that’s in extreme pain is going to LEARN–they’re going to revert back to their very base fight or flight instincts, and I really don’t know if you can change that response.

Case in point: I had a wonderful gelding who would have never, ever had any thought in his head about acting aggressively or challenging a human. He was kicked and fractured his shoulder, and after the proscribed amount of time, I put him on a longe line to see how he was.

When I asked him to trot, he tried to kick me, and when I pushed him back out on the circle, he came at me with his teeth.

TOTALLY out of character for that horse. And NOT a behavioral issue. He was IN PAIN. And while the vets said he should have better by then, he wasn’t at all and needed a LOT more time. Treating his outburst as a behavioral problem would have 100% been the wrong thing to do–he was in no place to learn, and the problem wasn’t behavioral, even though the action was.

Yes, it would have been nice if he’d not gone into fight mode, but when we remove their ability to flee and push them to the point when they’re in flight or fight, what are they going to do??[/QUOTE]

This right here. I think you know pretty much exactly what I’m going through. What’d you end up doing for him?

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8035043]
This right here. I think you know pretty much exactly what I’m going through. What’d you end up doing for him?[/QUOTE]

I gave him a LOT more time to heal. It’s been years, but I think he was in a box stall for six months. The first longeing trial was after four weeks. He looked okay at the walk at that time, but was obviously really, really (really, really) not ready for more movement.

Just musing, and knowing what I know now, I think there’s a huge possibility he had significant nervy pain and gabapentin would have been useful for him. He never developed a sweeney, but his fracture was right there at that shoulder nerve. Acupuncture would have been something else interesting to try.

I never pushed him like that again and listened harder when I did bring him back to work. He came back to soundness and never acted like that again.

[Flash44]

RhtymNCruise gave thoughtful and excellent advice, I agree.

OP, in post #70 you mentioned leading the horse out with the lead tossed over his neck. IMHO, this is not the way you handle a horse who randomly exhibits aggressive and dangerous behavior. If he has one of his random moments when you are leading him with the lead tossed over his neck you have absolutely no control over the situation and the behavior is reinforced. Your anthropomorphic descriptions of your horse’s behavior make it look like you are simply making excuses for his unacceptable behavior. Nowhere have you mentioned doing any ground work to teach this horse to respect your space and move away from you when you ask him. In fact, you mention putting your elbow or shoulder or something into him when he starts to misbehave, and that is a losing battle because he probably outweighs you 10-1 and again, your losing the battle reinforces the bad behavior. You have taught him a lot of this behavior because you’ve attributed human emotions and thought processes to him that frankly are ridiculous. Good luck with him, I hope he does not hurt you or anyone else.

[Lord_Helpus]

OP:

My boy Bear was in a lot of pain following surgery. Bute/Banamine only helped a little. So the vets added in Gabapentin (generic for ‘Neurontin’). It was a miracle drug. Within an hour he was a different horse.

Part of your problem is that your horse does not seem to be in constant pain, so it may be hard to tell if the Gabapentin is working. Since the problem only occurs sometimes, it may take a while to discover if the Gabapentin is helping. The vet would have to prescribe enough pills for a long term trial.

And you will still not know why/where the nerve pain is starting – but it will help you narrow down your issues.

To me, it was a miracle drug.

[MMurfey]

im not saying I won’t do ground work with him**

I’m sorry that I’m not typing every thought and responding to every post. Thank you all for your advice, I have a lot to work off of now.

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034728]
Yes and I am still exploring pain. Spinal pain and nerve pinching in the spine has always been high on the list - I really liked the suggestion of Glabapentin[/QUOTE]

If pain in the spine was the issue wouldn’t he be more prone to blow up under saddle?