difficulty urinating…has anyone checked for stones? boy can that be painful…
crystals forming in kidneys sure could cause an explosive reaction when traveling through the urethra…
[QUOTE=Simkie;8034896]
There are times when it’s at least understandable for a horse to react in a big, violent way and while it’s not something I would ever encourage, a pass might be granted. It’s not like a horse that’s in extreme pain is going to LEARN–they’re going to revert back to their very base fight or flight instincts, and I really don’t know if you can change that response.
Case in point: I had a wonderful gelding who would have never, ever had any thought in his head about acting aggressively or challenging a human. He was kicked and fractured his shoulder, and after the proscribed amount of time, I put him on a longe line to see how he was.
When I asked him to trot, he tried to kick me, and when I pushed him back out on the circle, he came at me with his teeth.
TOTALLY out of character for that horse. And NOT a behavioral issue. He was IN PAIN. And while the vets said he should have better by then, he wasn’t at all and needed a LOT more time. Treating his outburst as a behavioral problem would have 100% been the wrong thing to do–he was in no place to learn, and the problem wasn’t behavioral, even though the action was.
Yes, it would have been nice if he’d not gone into fight mode, but when we remove their ability to flee and push them to the point when they’re in flight or fight, what are they going to do??[/QUOTE]
Oh, yes. I know they can react aggressively if pain is involved. The difference between the OP’s horse and yours is that the OP’s horse has had very extensive veterinary exams, scopes, tests, etc. and nothing has been found. She also mentions that the horse didn’t have the outbursts under saddle AND that putting him on bute for a length of time did not really change things. To me, this would indicate that pain probably isn’t a major factor in the outbursts. The fact that she looks into his eyes and sees “love” tells me more about where this problem is coming from.
I think it’s great that owners want to exhaust every possibility to be sure that their horses are not suffering in silence, but I also think at some point common sense has to come into play. Someone earlier suggested basically taking the horse to the best specialist in the region and leaving the horse there for as long as it takes to find out what’s wrong with him. Call me crazy, but long before I did anything that extreme, I’d be having some “manners” sessions on the ground using a lunge line with a chain, a dressage whip, and wearing a helmet. This horse wouldn’t get led without those implements. If he behaves, he’s no worse off. If he blows up, his handler has things at her disposal to keep herself safe and to let the horse know his behavior isn’t going to be tolerated without some sort of swift, severe, and fair consequence just like a pasture mate would dole out if he had one.
[QUOTE=RhythmNCruise;8036575]
Oh, yes. I know they can react aggressively if pain is involved. The difference between the OP’s horse and yours is that the OP’s horse has had very extensive veterinary exams, scopes, tests, etc. and nothing has been found. [/QUOTE]
The OP suspects spinal involvement but hasn’t sent the horse for a bone scan or, AFAIK, even evaluated the spine radiographically. She’s not tried a gabapentin trial. The horse hasn’t had even a basic cranial radiograph.
IMO, a LOT more needs to be ruled out before the horse has a come to jesus meeting and is branded a behavioral case. It’s interesting that he’s not blown under saddle, but hardly definitive.
I’m not saying that this is 100% for sure physical. But I AM saying that it sure sounds like it could be and coming down swift and severe on a horse that’s acting out because he’s in extreme pain is exceedingly unfair to the horse.
Were this horse in my barn, I’d not feel comfortable calling this behavioral until the spine is worked up, the horse spends a month on gabapentin and I’d likely also want some films of the head. A bone scan would be fabulous, but decent spinal radiographs and perhaps an ultrasound of any weird areas should be considerably less expensive. I’d also turn him OUT, 24/7, preferably with other horses but alone would be fine too if he’s just dumb in a group. Pulling him off of all alfalfa and soy in his grain is also a “might as well” and easy checkbox–some horses are just so supremely sensitive to those things, why not try it?
The OP might have said a few things that trigger a “black stallion” response for some posters here, and I get that, but she also seems to be very conscientious with regard to this horse and when it comes down to it–is the ONLY one here actually involved in the situation. Despite what you’re claiming above, the evaluation of the horse really hasn’t been 100% comprehensive, and there are several boxes still to check off.
I do agree that this horse should not be handled without his outbursts in mind–for the safety of ALL involved–but I absolutely would pursue further diagnostics as outlined above.
[QUOTE=Cruisesmom;8036416]
difficulty urinating…has anyone checked for stones? boy can that be painful…
crystals forming in kidneys sure could cause an explosive reaction when traveling through the urethra…[/QUOTE]
This makes a lot of sense. I hope Veterinary diagnostics can be done to follow up on this lead.
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;8036860]
This makes a lot of sense. I hope Veterinary diagnostics can be done to follow up on this lead.[/QUOTE]
The OP has said a few times that the horse has been scoped from a urinary perspective, and nothing was found. Suggests that the urinary issues are perhaps neuro?
With so many issues already ruled out, it would seem that you may never know until a post mortem whether there could be a physical issue that underlies the behavior.
Is there a possibility it could be hormonal in nature? The aggression is what doesn’t add up for me in terms of it’s being a credible part of an illness or even a tumor…especially if he is performing well under saddle.
It might boil down to how well he performs under saddle, and whether it’s worthwhile to ensure that he’s professionally handled at all times, by people who are up to the task.
You worry me with your insistence that a soft touch is all he needs, that he ‘loves’ you, and when he’s misbehaving, he’s not “himself.”
Whoever he is during these episodes, when he begins to step foot out of line, he needs be reminded firmly and immediately that he is a domestic equine, meant to serve, not lead, no negotiation.
A chain over the nose is not the worse thing that ever happened to a horse. Getting away with murder, on the other hand is–because quite literally, a horse who badly hurts humans on a regular basis doesn’t have a good future ahead of him.
Do an xray of the spine which won’t cost you too much more than you’ve already spent and will rule in or out injury. If nothing looks suspicious and you’re still looking for solutions, ask your vet if you can try a shot of Depo Provera. Maybe something caused a sudden surge of testosterone. Happened to a friend’s horse this past Fall. He went from mild-mannered to wild beast and she was terrified he was going to hurt someone or himself. Something triggered it, nobody knows exactly what. One Depo shot and he’s been back to ‘normal’ for almost a month now. Best of luck to you. Be safe, and I hope you figure out what’s going on asap.
[QUOTE=RhythmNCruise;8036575]
Oh, yes. I know they can react aggressively if pain is involved. The difference between the OP’s horse and yours is that the OP’s horse has had very extensive veterinary exams, scopes, tests, etc. and nothing has been found. She also mentions that the horse didn’t have the outbursts under saddle AND that putting him on bute for a length of time did not really change things. To me, this would indicate that pain probably isn’t a major factor in the outbursts. The fact that she looks into his eyes and sees “love” tells me more about where this problem is coming from.
I think it’s great that owners want to exhaust every possibility to be sure that their horses are not suffering in silence, but I also think at some point common sense has to come into play. Someone earlier suggested basically taking the horse to the best specialist in the region and leaving the horse there for as long as it takes to find out what’s wrong with him. Call me crazy, but long before I did anything that extreme, I’d be having some “manners” sessions on the ground using a lunge line with a chain, a dressage whip, and wearing a helmet. This horse wouldn’t get led without those implements. If he behaves, he’s no worse off. If he blows up, his handler has things at her disposal to keep herself safe and to let the horse know his behavior isn’t going to be tolerated without some sort of swift, severe, and fair consequence just like a pasture mate would dole out if he had one.[/QUOTE]
Wow - I find THAT approach “extreme” for a case such as OP describes. I assume you are talking about a down-and-out CTJ meeting with the horse - and you’ll be using that chain & whip.
FIRST find out if there is something wrong biologically - because the chain/whip approach isn’t going to work if there is. But it is going to be VERY dangerous to horse & human - especially to human - if something makes the horse reactive and also unable to learn. The horse can out-escalate you considerably, and won’t react normally to all the pressure you’re planning to apply.
I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions about what the OP has and hasn’t done re training. She (he?) can’t post every minute of every interaction. Assumptions don’t help. Have to grant some faith that she’s rationally gotten to the place she is now in her approach to this horse.
I didn’t spell it out in previous post, but if there isn’t a veterinary answer to the problem described, if it were me in those shoes, there are going to be some tough decisions to make. Extreme training does not a safe horse make, cuz it doesn’t always stick. And human safety has to be the priority, on a day-to-day handling basis, and on a training basis.
There is a lot to read here - but I can say I feel for the OP here. Sounds like she has done so much to figure this horse out health and mental wise.
I know how it feels. I have a lovely horse that after a long lay up became so agitated when handled… down right objecting to being relaxed and compliant. I felt like the mom at school with “THAT” child!! There were some that said I was that ammy/owner coddling my horse… that made me feel awful. First, yes - I LOVE MY HORSE. Second, I have owned horses my entire life and know how to handle horses. I know when I am over my head and will seek professional help if need be. I don’t treat them like a baby puppy but I also know whipping and slamming on them isn’t going to cut it. Yes, corrections are necessary; but horses with complete loony behavior are often the more sensitive horses and just get more aggressive with harsh handling. These horses are also often very smart. They have fears and are trying to tell you something. I have also found I have overcome some negative behavior by consistency and gaining trust. I heard today on a video of a man that saved a horse going to slaughter that each horse is special and finding the key to unlock their potential is what he does. Loved that.
I had a professional handle my horse recently and those that felt it was me watched and then understood my horse was going through some things mentally and physically. I have since been treating him and we are really getting good results. I really take my time with him. I don’t push him and he is coming around.
I felt in my gut that it wasn’t him being naughty because he was good before. I sure hope you (OP) can figure out how to help your horse. It’s finally nice to see my horse being happy and relaxed!! It’s so frustrating to see them not happy and trying to tell us something!!!
Edited to add - I read where you didn’t have a bone scan… SOOOOO worth it. I have had horses scanned and it answered all the questions! Now, it may not but worth it.
One horse was hind lame and vet hospital wanted to do an exploratory surgery in his stiffle… Ah NO I said took him for a scan and it was his sacroiliac. Other horse found neck arthritis. When you would turn him slightly left he would freak out… now good 
doublesstable, IMO you take the smart approach, and are rewarded with results.
Some may balk at the veterinary expense. BUT - when it delivers the answer, it has saved much money in time and training that would go nowhere, because the underlying problem is still there.
Training is often the issue with less experienced horse handlers. But sometimes that’s not it.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8037111]
doublesstable, IMO you take the smart approach, and are rewarded with results.
Some may balk at the veterinary expense. BUT - when it delivers the answer, it has saved much money in time and training that would go nowhere, because the underlying problem is still there.
Training is often the issue with less experienced horse handlers. But sometimes that’s not it.[/QUOTE]
Thank you
And I agree… I think it is often less expensive in the long run to go the diagnostic route vs guessing, waiting, and numerous farm calls that add up.
The technology we have available to us now is amazing! I am grateful for the doctors and the technology…
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8037026]
Wow - I find THAT approach “extreme” for a case such as OP describes. I assume you are talking about a down-and-out CTJ meeting with the horse - and you’ll be using that chain & whip.
FIRST find out if there is something wrong biologically - because the chain/whip approach isn’t going to work if there is. But it is going to be VERY dangerous to horse & human - especially to human - if something makes the horse reactive and also unable to learn. The horse can out-escalate you considerably, and won’t react normally to all the pressure you’re planning to apply.
I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions about what the OP has and hasn’t done re training. She (he?) can’t post every minute of every interaction. Assumptions don’t help. Have to grant some faith that she’s rationally gotten to the place she is now in her approach to this horse.
I didn’t spell it out in previous post, but if there isn’t a veterinary answer to the problem described, if it were me in those shoes, there are going to be some tough decisions to make. Extreme training does not a safe horse make, cuz it doesn’t always stick. And human safety has to be the priority, on a day-to-day handling basis, and on a training basis.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t consider using a lunge line with a chain and having a dressage whip in hand “extreme” for a horse that is so dangerous his owner is scared his handlers might wind up seriously hurt. She has spend thousands of dollars and quite a bit of time trying to find the physical root of the outbursts to no avail, and seems willing to continue to pour more money and time into tests and scans, etc., but refuses the possibility that the horse could just need a firmer hand…much firmer than a small woman “putting her shoulder into him” which actually does the OPPOSITE of what this horse needs. He needs to learn to yield to the human’s personal space and she’s laying INTO him basically teaching him that when he gets goofy it’s okay for them to be smacked up against one another. She’s been kicked, charged, struck out at…what is being done to correct this behavior? Shanking him and/or a few well-timed whacks with a dressage whip to keep him off of her isn’t “extreme”. Now, if his reaction TO that reminder becomes extreme, then there is a larger problem (behavioral, physical, whatever). Maybe she’s tried to get tough and he’s come back at her? I don’t know. I would be very wary of a horse that does that, I’ve seen horses attack handlers savagely and it’s horrible.
I guess the baffling thing to me is that this owner HAS done the extensive search for a physical/health problem and nothing has shown up. To ME the common sense thing is to see if it’s just a matter of a bratty horse who, sure, can be a sweetheart most of the time, but when he gets in the mood, can be dangerous because he’s never really learned respect and manners on the ground.
And I definitely think before I started “making tough decisions” about the horse’s future (ie: possibly putting him down, talk about EXTREME!), I’d put a chain over his nose, grab a dressage whip, strap my helmet on and see if the horse and I could come to an understanding. Or, if I wasn’t up to it, I’d hire someone to do it. Far better than deciding because there’s no physical/health reason the horse needs to be put down. Yikes. I bet the horse would agree!
And I definitely think before I started “making tough decisions” about the horse’s future (ie: possibly putting him down, talk about EXTREME!), I’d put a chain over his nose, grab a dressage whip, strap my helmet on and see if the horse and I could come to an understanding. Or, if I wasn’t up to it, I’d hire someone to do it. Far better than deciding because there’s no physical/health reason the horse needs to be put down. Yikes. I bet the horse would agree!
Exactly. In my nearly 50 years of experience, I have NEVER seen fear or pain expressed as aggression.
We’re not talking about a reflexive kick when you’re trying to clean a sheath or care for a painful wound–or biting when you go to adjust a blanket.
The poster has described a horse that from a distance, on the end of the longe line, has attacked an experienced vet, and nailed it’s owner with a kick while jogging in hand, among other things. Yet has a pretty good work ethic under saddle.
In my book, forewarned is an indication that forearmed (helmet, stick, chain) is not a bad idea. Helmet is for safety…stick and chain do not come into play unless the horse’s behavior makes it necessary.
Did anyone see the bad stallion on the Buck Branaman documentary?
It’s a sobering reminder that horses are stronger and more powerful than we are, with deep instinctive defense AND offense mechanisms that warrant our respect, and make it all the more amazing that so many of them allow and welcome our partnership.
It’s the few that don’t that make it extremely treacherous to take any of it for granted. One mistake can be fatal, and not for the horse.
Handling with a lead shank and dressage whip is not about a CTJ moment ( I hate that term). It is a about safe handling, as well as enforcing boundaries with horse, which he badly needs. Unless his pain is excruciating, this kind of behavior is not acceptable and the crueler option is letting behavior continue and then he gets euthanized or someone gets hurt. Wearing a helmet is a safety precaution and wearing leather gloves is a must. Horses learn this nonsense by being able to pull people around who dont’ wear gloves and use only a plain halter which does nothing to stop a 1100lb horse…the leverage from a chain shank or rope halter which is a training halter ,will accomplish that which is why they are used.
Usually the whip is used simply to press into chest or shoulder with blunt end to move horse back or sideways, or carried in case need to wave as a warning to keep horse out of handlers’ space.
I do not agree with the use of a chain shank or a whip on this horse, and the horse does not need a “Come To Jesus” day. He just needs normal humane consistent ground work to get him to respect his handlers. Causing pain triggers the “fight or flight” reflex and the horse will not learn the desired behavior because he can outfight and outflight anyone.
The BIG CLUE to me is that this horse did not exhibit these aggressive, explosive behaviors under saddle. She actually took him to a couple shows
where he was flighty, jumpy and showing his greeness. Not unusual for first few shows.
This all started when other people were handling an exuberant, flighty TB during turnout. IMO he gradually got worse and worse leaving the stall. No one properly corrected these outbursts or did anything to curtail them.
Then the OP got scared of him. He sensed this and the flighty, bad behavior continued.
Horses like this (flighty, insecure) need EXPERIENCED handlers to squash the behaviors. They need a leader, not a friend. And once they’ve escaped during an episode, like w/ the vet exam, they continue to try to escape UNTIL someone more experienced and more prepared teach them it’s not gonna happen again.
At this point, I think this horse has learned to bully his ground handlers. No one has stepped up to be the leader or the mean old teacher.
Yes, he can be a “sweetie” when he wants to but his work and manners ethics are out the window. He’s becoming semi-feral because no one is re-inforcing basic rules for him. Not so unusual for a smart, flighty horse.
OP needs to beg some old time trainer to put back some basic manners on him.
Just another example of a person who’s overhorsed, inexperienced and smart, strong horse is taking advantage of her.
[QUOTE=MMurfey;8034514]
To address your other post:
-When he winds up first he puffs up, prances, then explodes. His eye will look nervous, anxious, scared, frustrated
-He comes toward the handler, but the only time he has made contact was the one time he kicked me in the thigh (mentioned earlier). No one has actually gotten hurt by him
-Over-exuberance is a good way to describe it. If he does end up hurting it I honestly don’t think he will necessarily intend to.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a colt I had. He would be holding it together and then all of a sudden he would look at me like: “the voices in my head say I have to kill you now”. It never came to that but…
His problems were:
He was very very high strung
He was a ridgling
He was a self mutilator
He had ulcers
He would colic with the weather
Cornell gelded him and treated him for ulcers. They said he likely had a lot of abdominal adhesions and when it finally killed him they would like to necropsy him. The person who owned him when he was euthanized did not bother to ship the body to Cornell so we won’t know for sure, but I think he just had a lot of random and inconsistent abdominal pain all the time that caused his temperament to be so unpredictable (even after gelding) and that he would just snap.
[QUOTE=JustJump;8037242]
In my nearly 50 years of experience, I have NEVER seen fear or pain expressed as aggression. [/QUOTE]
In my experience of 43 years of horse ownership and 31 years of working as a farrier I have seen aggression from fear and pain a lot!!
I apologize if this has already been touched upon but…
OP, what is his breeding?
I had an OTTB that had a very similar story. I leased him for a year and he was dream to ride, we showed and he was a complete rock star. But a few months after I bought him he did a complete 180 and became very agressive. He would be a puppy one minute and then the next minute we would be in full attack mode.
He ended up being much younger than we thought and was in a lesson barn for a while as well as ran through New Holland so we thought maybe being pushed too much too young was the cause (a mental issue). Or he may have been gelded late because he also had stallion tendancies.
I’d be curious if there breeding may be similar somwhere along the line.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8037294]
Handling with a lead shank and dressage whip is not about a CTJ moment ( I hate that term). It is a about safe handling, as well as enforcing boundaries with horse, which he badly needs. Unless his pain is excruciating, this kind of behavior is not acceptable and the crueler option is letting behavior continue and then he gets euthanized or someone gets hurt. Wearing a helmet is a safety precaution and wearing leather gloves is a must. Horses learn this nonsense by being able to pull people around who dont’ wear gloves and use only a plain halter which does nothing to stop a 1100lb horse…the leverage from a chain shank or rope halter which is a training halter ,will accomplish that which is why they are used.
Usually the whip is used simply to press into chest or shoulder with blunt end to move horse back or sideways, or carried in case need to wave as a warning to keep horse out of handlers’ space.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with this advice. If the OP is truly over her head and horse is taking advantage of her (which I get the feeling is not the case) then wouldn’t better advice be to hire a professional that deals with these types of situations?
If someone is not qualified to don a helmet, whip and chain I don’t think it would be a good suggestion. IMHO this would be dangerous to suggest especially since the horse is showing such aggression.
From personal experience horses DO express aggression when in pain or fear. Pain can come and go. Also mental illness, metabolic imbalances etc can cause these behaviors too. It’s not always just a horse crossing the behavior line.
