OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;8037356]
The BIG CLUE to me is that this horse did not exhibit these aggressive, explosive behaviors under saddle. She actually took him to a couple shows
where he was flighty, jumpy and showing his greeness. Not unusual for first few shows.

This all started when other people were handling an exuberant, flighty TB during turnout. IMO he gradually got worse and worse leaving the stall. No one properly corrected these outbursts or did anything to curtail them.
Then the OP got scared of him. He sensed this and the flighty, bad behavior continued.

Horses like this (flighty, insecure) need EXPERIENCED handlers to squash the behaviors. They need a leader, not a friend. And once they’ve escaped during an episode, like w/ the vet exam, they continue to try to escape UNTIL someone more experienced and more prepared teach them it’s not gonna happen again.

At this point, I think this horse has learned to bully his ground handlers. No one has stepped up to be the leader or the mean old teacher.
Yes, he can be a “sweetie” when he wants to but his work and manners ethics are out the window. He’s becoming semi-feral because no one is re-inforcing basic rules for him. Not so unusual for a smart, flighty horse.

OP needs to beg some old time trainer to put back some basic manners on him.

Just another example of a person who’s overhorsed, inexperienced and smart, strong horse is taking advantage of her.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree on the concept of a horse being handled by people that are not reinforcing good behavior. What I have found in situations where my horses are being handled by others is - they are in a hurry. This IMHO causes problems especially in younger horses.

I also agree horses need a leader but know they need a friend too. I have had a few insecure horses and being there for them has made the world of difference. Some horses I have had do better when I am a bit more distant. It really depends on the horse.

I wouldn’t blame the OP at this point because we don’t know and you even said yourself that you are suspecting OTHERS handling her horse could be some of the cause of this horses behavior - not necessarily the OP.

I do agree 100% with the thought of hiring a layup trainer type guy that is calm, quiet and has a lot of patience. I don’t go for the rough and tumbled kind of guy. I have seen amazing results from guys that are good leaders by being calm, quiet, direct and no fear but never mean.

[HorseKrazy]

I don’t consider properly equipping yourself to handle an unpredictable horse (shank, long line, long stick) as inviting a ctj moment. I feel like it is being misinterpreted here. I would handle a horse like this the same way every. single. day. I would use my tools as a line of defense in case the horse has an episode. It’s better to be prepared than to be caught off gaurd and put in a dangerous position.

I also think that since neuro issues haven’t been ruled out, and that there are more tests that could/should be given to rule out physical reasons for this behavior, it would be unfair to do more “handling wise” than is necessary to ensure my (your) safety. Handle minimally and do so well prepared.

[JustJump]

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8037506]
In my experience of 43 years of horse ownership and 31 years of working as a farrier I have seen aggression from fear and pain a lot!![/QUOTE]

I’d be very interested in learning of any examples.

I can think of many instances of aggression. But none that were motivated by fear. When fearful, a horse’s normal instinct is to take flight.

A horse can kick or paw or even nip when inattentive, or uncooperative. It can hurt you badly by stamping at a fly, or shaking its head, without even knowing you are there. It can trample you in a doorway or gateway if you aren’t careful, but none of these are examples of being afraid and becoming aggressive.

Being afraid or confused and kicking out is a far different kind of kick than one due to aggression.

I’m not saying that fear can’t cause a horse to act badly–I’m saying that fear isn’t usually at the root of aggression.

[RhythmNCruise]

[QUOTE=JustJump;8037877]
I’d be very interested in learning of any examples.

I can think of many instances of aggression. But none that were motivated by fear. When fearful, a horse’s normal instinct is to take flight.

A horse can kick or paw or even nip when inattentive, or uncooperative. It can hurt you badly by stamping at a fly, or shaking its head, without even knowing you are there. It can trample you in a doorway or gateway if you aren’t careful, but none of these are examples of being afraid and becoming aggressive.

Being afraid or confused and kicking out is a far different kind of kick than one due to aggression.

I’m not saying that fear can’t cause a horse to act badly–I’m saying that fear isn’t usually at the root of aggression.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And I think if a horse DOES charge or attack its handler out of pain, there wasn’t the required level of respect in the relationship to begin with.
This is all about HUMAN SAFETY around a 1,000+ pound animal that can KILL you if it is so inclined. I don’t really care if a damn mountain lion has just jumped on his back and is gnawing at his spine, he better figure out how to deal with it without hurting ME in the process. Sometimes when I’m in the run-in shed and the big bay is being a jackass to the younger horse, he chases him out of his space and I’m right there. Young horse has to do some fancy maneuvering to avoid crowding, stepping on, bumping into me, but he DOES because he knows the one individual who ranks above ALL is ME!

It sounds to me like this horse has almost accomplished training his “staff” not to piss him off or get in his way when he wants to act foolish.

[2enduraceriders]

@JustJump;8037877

I’d be very interested in learning of any examples.

I can think of many instances of aggression. But none that were motivated by fear. When fearful, a horse’s normal instinct is to take flight.

Good God, how many examples do you want? Want to deal with them go to through the kill pens and buy some. Otherwise i am sure both your veterinarian and farrier can direct to you many horses.

Spoiled horses are easy to work with. It is the scared ones that kill people.

[DJohn]

I just wanted to add to the discussion that I coddle the heck out of my horse. He gets non-stop hand fed treats, cuddles, scritches etc… But if he ever decides he’s going to pull a stunt, damned right I’m going to give him a wake up call.

Oddly, because my horse respects me, there are no stunts to speak of. Even when he is very excited, he will shake his head left to right but he will NEVER kick or strike at me. That is dangerous, disrespectful and unacceptable behavior.

You can still love your horse, but you have to remember that a horse weighs 1000+ lbs (in my case, 1300lbs of gelded late, bred a mare, herd leader)! If a horse needs to be reprimanded, you can’t pretend they’re a child. That’s not how a horse’s brain works.

All of the instances of his “blacking out” seem to relate to being led in or out of turnout. To me, that screams bad manners whether you want to believe it or not. I imagine he’s a real treat for the farrier, too. :no:

[JustJump]

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8038494]
Good God, how many examples do you want? Want to deal with them go to through the kill pens and buy some. Otherwise i am sure both your veterinarian and farrier can direct to you many horses.

Spoiled horses are easy to work with. It is the scared ones that kill people.[/QUOTE]

Been there, done that. Thanks.

Yes, scared horses can run you over blindly, hurt you badly, and not even know they did it. They can be very aggressive toward each other, and a stupid or unfortunate human might be in the way. But that’s not aggression toward humans.

[Countrywood]

I suggested early on she contact a trainer for help. A lot of room for improvement re and ground manners.

[Showbizz]

This doesn’t have to be an either/or. I think you’re dealing with both pain AND behavioral issues.

The “puffing up, getting more excited, then exploding” from an OTTB who is in the barn WAY TOO MUCH is behavioral, IMO. And in that case, “he just happened to hit me because I was there” is telling. My horses better respect my space enough that even if in pain, they are hesitant to enter my space rudely. I’ve had a horse with ulcers nip in my direction while girthing, for instance, but in communicating her discomfort she certainly would not make contact.

That said, the kidney issue is odd, and definitely worth continued effort, as you are so ernestly doing.

Personally, I wouldn’t wait for the “opportunity” to move him to 24/7 turnout in 2+ months. You can and should find it now. Risking another UTI is worth not having someone killed.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

[QUOTE=Pegasus5;8034193]
I don’t know if it has already been mentioned, but Google “kissing spines.” The sudden and extreme manor of onset makes me think its physical too. Good luck to you and your horse[/QUOTE]

This… especially when you say you stopped the chiro work because of explosions during his sessions.

[Logical]

[QUOTE=JustJump;8037877]
I’d be very interested in learning of any examples.

I can think of many instances of aggression. But none that were motivated by fear. When fearful, a horse’s normal instinct is to take flight.

I’m not saying that fear can’t cause a horse to act badly–I’m saying that fear isn’t usually at the root of aggression.[/QUOTE]

I have a mare that turns aggressive with fear. She had always gotten the short end of the stick before she came to me. When asked to do something, even something simple as putting a halter on she freezes, head goes up, breathing accelerates, white around the eyes appears, and she starts to tremble. If you (general) continue without letting her relax, she will come over the top of you, or turn and try to kick you, or pin you against a wall. If you stop and let her relax and give her the time to figure out that you aren’t there to hurt her you can then put the halter on without an issue. And this behaviour and fear has continued for the 4 years I have known her. Although I can put her halter on without a fear response in certain situations. There are still many things I can’t do with her and a trillion baby steps to get where I am today with her. I WILL be the last owner of this horse one way or another. I have learned a lot from this horse and do my best for her when she allows it. It’s not always an easy road to take but I wouldn’t change it for the world. And if you don’t believe me, you are more than welcomed to come out and watch it first hand.

[Flash44]

OP, watch this video, it may shed some light on the root of your horse’s behavioral problem. Yes, it’s Clinton Anderson, but you can fast forward through his propaganda and see how he fixes a bucking problem with basic groundwork. It will take you less than 20 minutes and it’s free. I am not a CA follower, but in this video he does use basic horse psychology and behavior to get to the root of the problems the owner is having with the horse. He does it all in one session, and I usually take longer (I’m a bit lazy), but it clearly demonstrates how good groundwork and getting respect on the ground can translate into other areas of a horse’s experience.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Showbizz;8039772]
This doesn’t have to be an either/or. I think you’re dealing with both pain AND behavioral issues.

The “puffing up, getting more excited, then exploding” from an OTTB who is in the barn WAY TOO MUCH is behavioral, IMO. And in that case, “he just happened to hit me because I was there” is telling. My horses better respect my space enough that even if in pain, they are hesitant to enter my space rudely. I’ve had a horse with ulcers nip in my direction while girthing, for instance, but in communicating her discomfort she certainly would not make contact.

That said, the kidney issue is odd, and definitely worth continued effort, as you are so ernestly doing.

Personally, I wouldn’t wait for the “opportunity” to move him to 24/7 turnout in 2+ months. You can and should find it now. Risking another UTI is worth not having someone killed.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Without ever seeing either OP or the horse and interpreting the situation only as related by OP? I don’t see why it can’t be BOTH. Gaining respect thru proper groundwork is something many owners never learn, they don’t have to. Most of the time they learn on safe and suitable types who never challenge. When faced with one that lacks that foundation of respect, they don’t have the tools to recognize and deal with it. And it can scare them, as it shoukd if they don’t have the skill to deal with it,

Thats why I still say that horse is not OPs friend and she should not see him that way. Friends respect friends- there is little respect on his side. No concern for her safety and personal space either, pretty much all about himself.

Never seen a UTI in a horse other then a broodie or two. Asked around, nobody I spoke to had either. Ran into one of my vets, he said he saw very few over many years, all in mares. So there is some concern in my mind this horse, besides being a bully, has some physical problems that do cause pain.

And he needs to go O.U.T. Now.

[kdreger]

[QUOTE=Logical;8040000]
I have a mare that turns aggressive with fear. She had always gotten the short end of the stick before she came to me. When asked to do something, even something simple as putting a halter on she freezes, head goes up, breathing accelerates, white around the eyes appears, and she starts to tremble. If you (general) continue without letting her relax, she will come over the top of you, or turn and try to kick you, or pin you against a wall. If you stop and let her relax and give her the time to figure out that you aren’t there to hurt her you can then put the halter on without an issue. And this behaviour and fear has continued for the 4 years I have known her. Although I can put her halter on without a fear response in certain situations. There are still many things I can’t do with her and a trillion baby steps to get where I am today with her. I WILL be the last owner of this horse one way or another. I have learned a lot from this horse and do my best for her when she allows it. It’s not always an easy road to take but I wouldn’t change it for the world. And if you don’t believe me, you are more than welcomed to come out and watch it first hand.[/QUOTE]

I too have owned horses over the years that were dumped by previous owners because they were “mean and nasty”, they would bite and kick. Everyone of them did so out of fear. Like your mare it was often a long rode to normalcy (sometimes years) but they all eventually got there. Good luck with your mare, it sounds like she deserves a good life now.

@JustJump

I can think of many instances of aggression. But none that were motivated by fear.

After 40+ years dealing with 'bad" horses most “aggressive” and “bad” habits develop from and out of fear. The few that were not fear based were extremely spoiled horses with no respect of people but luckily those are extremely rare.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I’m also interested to see what the Gabapentin does for him. OP please keep us updated.

[JackieBlue]

Gabapentin is pretty sedating. I know from personal experience. So, whether pain is at the root of the bad behavior or not, gabapentin will likely be perceived to improve his behavior, at least somewhat.

You mentioned in the first post that this horse urinated blood. Did you ever have his urine cultured? What does his blood work show? Cytology on the urine? The adrenal glands sit right above the kidneys and produce both adrenaline and testosterone. An excess of both or either could easily be to blame for this horse’s behavioral issues. Has your vet considered an adrenal tumor?

[Pipkin]

@JustJump;8037242

Exactly. In my nearly 50 years of experience, I have NEVER seen fear or pain expressed as aggression.

I have a couple of times.

One was awful, dangerous to handle and used to lunge at people over the stable door. As in really go for you. Turned out to have a fractured vertebrae in his neck…

Another was like yours, would come at you on the lunge, that was kissing spines and he was a different animal after surgery.

Don’t take any risks with yourself, and try him on a painkiller trial. I would be tempted to find a field where he can go out 24/7, that at least reduces risk for his handlers.

[OverandOnward]

A pain scientist at a pain clinic can confirm that aggression can be one symptom of pain, including chronic pain. Sometimes it is a defensive reaction against whatever is perceived to be the cause of the hurt. With chronic pain over time, there is a reduced tolerance for pain, and irritability and aggression are common. This is true for people as well as horses and other animals.

Links to references

Horse aggression linked to chronic pain
(great photo - that’s hard to argue with)
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2011/04/090.shtml#axzz3TZ6pgV3y

Link Between Chronic Pain and Aggression in Horses
author = DVM
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/27198/link-between-chronic-pain-and-aggression-in-horses-identified

Sudden Aggression in Dogs Often a Sign of Pain
http://www.livescience.com/20969-aggressive-dogs-hip-pain.html

Pain-Induced Aggression
https://alliraph.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/pain-induced-aggression-when-anger-intrudes/

[OverandOnward]

This thread is fascinating for the very different approaches and views of experienced horse people to the problem.

Sometimes to the symptoms that have been put forward … sometimes to the way the OP tells the story.

Clearly there isn’t a common understanding of how to determine causes of this type of equine behavior, or what to do next. But clearly many people are firm in their opinions, however different those opinions range across the gamut.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8042438]
A pain scientist at a pain clinic can confirm that aggression can be one symptom of pain, including chronic pain. Sometimes it is a defensive reaction against whatever is perceived to be the cause of the hurt. With chronic pain over time, there is a reduced tolerance for pain, and irritability and aggression are common. This is true for people as well as horses and other animals.

Links to references

Horse aggression linked to chronic pain
(great photo - that’s hard to argue with)
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2011/04/090.shtml#axzz3TZ6pgV3y

Link Between Chronic Pain and Aggression in Horses
author = DVM
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/27198/link-between-chronic-pain-and-aggression-in-horses-identified

Sudden Aggression in Dogs Often a Sign of Pain
http://www.livescience.com/20969-aggressive-dogs-hip-pain.html

Pain-Induced Aggression
https://alliraph.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/pain-induced-aggression-when-anger-intrudes/[/QUOTE]

Great post!!!

I have a horse that was showing aggression once and he had neck arthritis. Had it injected and he was much better after.

I get cranky when I am hungry and tired and so does my family…

I do agree however that even if the horse is hurting; they should have manners not to invade your space etc.

But I wouldn’t disregard all aggressive behavior to bad manners.