OTTB with sudden dangerous behavior - HELP

[Lunatteo]

The UTIs… they were after the behavior started or before?

Pain can cause behavioral issues that continue after the pain is gone. The urinary issues could have been painful enough to give fuel to the behavior and now that they’re gone the behavior remains simply because it wasn’t properly addressed.

My arab who I grew up with kicked out once when it extreme pain. He got a massive tick infestation when out at pasture as an older horse. I brought him in and started working on his tail. It was so bad some of the skin had started to grow back over the tick crusts. In order to get them out some skin came with it. He wrung his tail and kicked out BUT…. it wasn’t at me. He could almost embarrassingly easily have knocked me out. But he deliberately kicked away from me. Not saying its the same as chronic pain, but it taught me what a horse is willing to do for someone he loves and respects. This horse NEVER kicked ANYONE because he knew he wasn’t supposed to. He’d kick out playing but not towards anyone. Not even horses he was put out with which is why he ended up in the bottom of the pecking order. He’d been raised with people so much people were his herd and I’m pretty sure he was not very fluent in horse. (isolated since he was weaned from other horses till he was 4, then was in stalls until he was 17 where he slowly was introduced to other horses in small turn out groups then one HUGE gelding group where he was bottom rung and spent most of his time standing near the mare pasture. He knew how to chat up ladies, hehe)

I sit with the continue looking for pain issues but definitely don’t over look the behavior. Which it looks like you plan on addressing both. Just I second that leaning into a horse and planting your feet won’t do jack on a horse sane of mind let alone one you expect to have some attentiveness issues (pain or otherwise). Heck, I’m sure you’ve seen how effective it is on placid school horses.

[maunder]

Re: pain with aggression

[QUOTE=Pipkin;8042349]
I have a couple of times.

One was awful, dangerous to handle and used to lunge at people over the stable door. As in really go for you. Turned out to have a fractured vertebrae in his neck…

Another was like yours, would come at you on the lunge, that was kissing spines and he was a different animal after surgery.

Don’t take any risks with yourself, and try him on a painkiller trial. I would be tempted to find a field where he can go out 24/7, that at least reduces risk for his handlers.[/QUOTE]

Me too. A foundered gelding that wasn’t getting any treatment for his pain became increasingly aggressive at a barn where I boarded. Owner did see the light and put him down with the vet breathing a sigh of relief.

I’ve also had experience with my Thoroughbred turning into a flight/fight temperament within two days of being at a new boarding barn. The change was drastic. My quiet and sensible gelding was rearing and plunging backwards, would no longer stand tied and also seemed to “forget” I was around.

Turns out barn owner was practicing her aggressive form of Parelli on my horse without my permission and in fact against my firm instructions not to.

Moved him and within 24 hours he was back to normal. I should mention he wasn’t moved immediately as it took me a bit to find out the cause as BO was not admitting to anything. Horse was at the barn about 3 weeks.

Sounds like as others have said the OPs problem is environmental and physical. I hope a solution is found for everyone’s sakes.

[Flash44]

Here is the video I meant to post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D09XuvQVQTI

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8042438]

Horse aggression linked to chronic pain
(great photo - that’s hard to argue with)
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2011/04/090.shtml#axzz3TZ6pgV3y[/QUOTE]

That horse is shaking his head to unwind, not making evil faces at his rider. You can even see the left ear is in loose motion. Floppy, not pinned.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8043015]
That horse is shaking his head to unwind, not making evil faces at his rider. You can even see the left ear is in loose motion. Floppy, not pinned.[/QUOTE]

Regardless of what someone thinks of the photo the real interesting thing is the research done.

[sirensong4]

Bumping. Any updates, OP?

[4THEHORSES]

I always tend to give the same answer on these questions but, if you’ve ruled out a bunch of physical issues and the behavior continues (and it sounds like you have), I’d consider a brain tumor. Especially when the behavior is erratic (ok sometimes, not others) and appears to worsen over time.

[rhymeswithfizz]

@JustJump;8037242

Exactly. In my nearly 50 years of experience, I have NEVER seen fear or pain expressed as aggression.

We’re not talking about a reflexive kick when you’re trying to clean a sheath or care for a painful wound–or biting when you go to adjust a blanket.

The poster has described a horse that from a distance, on the end of the longe line, has attacked an experienced vet, and nailed it’s owner with a kick while jogging in hand, among other things. Yet has a pretty good work ethic under saddle.

Well, I own one. He was given to me because he was unmanageable during a rehab stint with stall rest. He would try to attack anyone who went into his stall because he figured out that anyone who touched him was going to hurt him.

I am a very strong rider and a very strong handler, and I can generally keep his butt in line. But when he is scared or in pain, he will get aggressive, even to me, and I promise you I take no crap, and work with lots of flighty OTTBs.

The first time we tried to give him shots, before the needle even touched him, he jumped on the vet. Not jumped away, literally ATTACKED the vet and tried to pin him to the wall. Did the same when twitched and chain shanked. He does not move away from pain or fear, he moves INTO it. His mane CANNOT be pulled. He is still difficult to manage when he injures himself (which is frequently because he is an idiot). If he is in pain, he is beyond cranky to the point of being aggressive… like he assumes whoever is near him is the source of the pain and they must be vanquished to make the pain stop. When he colicked severly this winter (a twist - amazingly he flipped it back himself), he tried to double barrel kick me just for trying to put a halter on. No amount of groundwork will fix this, it’s like his brain shuts off.

When he feels good, he is a total dreamboat. An absolute cupcake. My 10 year old can ride him. And, happily we discovered that if I tickle his nose with his favorite cookie, it will distract him just long enough for the vet to do his thing. After 8 years of this, he has almost forgotten that shots hurt, so he has gotten much better.

So I TOTALLY believe that the OP’s horse may have totally lost his marbles because he hurts A LOT. I can absolutely see my horse acting like this if he was in tremendous pain. He is like Jekyll and Hyde.

[JustJump]

I think what we have here is a disagreement about what constitutes ‘fear’ and a ‘fearful’ reaction.

I would not characterize the reaction described by rwfz as a ‘fear’ response (a fear response would be to “LEAVE” i.e. flight).

Horses that stand their ground and attack are not fearful but are asserting their superiority in facing up to a perceived danger rather than yielding to it.

MOST horses will flee…the few that stand their ground are the ones that engage the enemy and fight while the rest take flight.

[anmoro]

If I didn’t know better, I’d think you somehow ended up with my OTTB!

We did the ulcer treatment but remember that endoscopes and GG don’t treat Hindgut ulcers. Anyway, I was at a loss. I didn’t know what to do. Finally, I called an eastern medicibe (accupuncture) vet. No western treatments were finding or resolving anything. We had a suspected issue within 30 minutes after the eastern medicibe vote saw him and so far so good! I was a skeptic, but it has helped us

[rhymeswithfizz]

[QUOTE=JustJump;8080640]
I think what we have here is a disagreement about what constitutes ‘fear’ and a ‘fearful’ reaction.

I would not characterize the reaction described by rwfz as a ‘fear’ response (a fear response would be to “LEAVE” i.e. flight).

Horses that stand their ground and attack are not fearful but are asserting their superiority in facing up to a perceived danger rather than yielding to it.

MOST horses will flee…the few that stand their ground are the ones that engage the enemy and fight while the rest take flight.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is probably a better way to describe it!

But I want to reiterate the personality change that happens when my normally-respectful horse is in pain, or anticipates pain. It is quite dramatic. If he got a sudden stabbing pain from a pinched nerve or something, he might very well lash out at whoever was holding the lead rope at the time in the same way that the OP’s horse did.

Either way, whether it is a training issue or pain, I sure hope this fellow can be fixed.

[MMurfey]

Old spinal fracture. He is now officially retired out on pasture with an older mare.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I’m so sorry to hear this but now you have your answer and that totally explains his sudden explosions. Good on you for getting to the bottom of the issue.

[Piney_Woods]

I haven’t read all of this thread so forgive me if this is a repeat but i had this same type of thing happen with a TB and it was her teeth. She had regular dental care but a second opinion by an excellent equine dentist revealed hooks in the very back. The behavior immediately stopped after these were floated. Now she has her teeth checked every 8 months or she starts to exhibit those behaviors again.

[MMurfey]

His urinary issues returned and progressively got worse. Unable to diagnose… Euthanised yesterday and necropsy showed possible bladder cancer. Won’t know for sure until histology report comes back in a couple weeks.

[brody]

Aww I am so sorry

[HorsesinHaiti]

Wow this was a tough one to diagnose. Hugs and kudos to you, MMurfey.

[Obsidian_Fire]

So, so sorry. That’s awful. Kudos to you for all you did for him, and thank you for sharing with us so that we may learn.

[vxf111]

So sorry!

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Obsidian Fire;8293689]
So, so sorry. That’s awful. Kudos to you for all you did for him, and thank you for sharing with us so that we may learn.[/QUOTE]

Ditto this. So very sorry for how this ended … but at least he is no longer in pain or trouble.