OTTBs' in Big Eq classes

[RugBug]

@Synthesis

My point, tangential is it might appear, is those who tend to pick up an OTTB are typically less affluent. Those who are in the less affluent population selling horses often struggle to get their value recognized, even when selling the most easily marketed of the marketable.

Due to the lack of ‘status symbol’ value and therefore limited ability to increase the price tag, tons of trainers pass over TBs that would otherwise be suitable or re-brand them as ‘wb of unknown breeding’.

shrug I know what I’ve seen, I know what I’ve heard trainers say and shop for. No skin off my teeth if individuals here don’t get what I’m talking about.

Yes…but what I’m trying to say is IF the OTTB really was so readily able to fulfill the requirements of todays’ Big eq ring, it wouldn’t be only the less affluent who are mining that gold. You think Andre Dignelli wouldn’t be buying some realtively inexpensive TBs, putting his students on these horses while leasing them out to get exposure and then reaping the benefits of his labors as all his students went into the finals leasing his horses…and winning on them?

[RugBug]

@Chrome-chestnut

Wow, I never thought that this was going to get this much attention. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion. It’s interesting to hear what everyone has to say. The reason I asked is because I just recently just bought a 16.3 hd chestnut OTTB gelding with a lot of knee action and big stride. I wanted to know it any other OTTB has been able to make to the Big Eq level. Ultimately I want to compete in the Maclay with him. Thank you to everyone who gave me insight to a whole new perspective. But I never really got my question answered.

I think your answer is really based on research you can do…if no one can readily offer up names. Look at the class list for finals, cross reference to USEF database and see if you can find the horse they are on*, look up the horse and cross your fingers their breed is listed (and true - not just the blanket WB that can be used to hide many things).

*I HATE that we don’t list the horses for Eq. I find that really ridiculous because we all know that while the class is judged on the rider, you have to have the right horse. The really famous ones become known, but what about all those others doing their job well but not doing it over and over and over.

[RND]

@Chrome-chestnut

Wow, I never thought that this was going to get this much attention. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion. It’s interesting to hear what everyone has to say. The reason I asked is because I just recently just bought a 16.3 hd chestnut OTTB gelding with a lot of knee action and big stride. I wanted to know it any other OTTB has been able to make to the Big Eq level. Ultimately I want to compete in the Maclay with him. Thank you to everyone who gave me insight to a whole new perspective. But I never really got my question answered.

You really should focus on your own horse as an individual; don’t worry about the generalizations that are presented here. You have set your goals and you have chosen your horse - at this point it doesn’t matter for your purposes how many OTTBs have become big eq superstars. I really think you would be better off building a relationship with your horse and a good trainer with a focus on your particular goals than worrying about what a bunch of us armchair quarterbacks on the internet think about the topic in general. Good luck!

[ynl063w]

@Chrome-chestnut

Wow, I never thought that this was going to get this much attention. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion. It’s interesting to hear what everyone has to say. The reason I asked is because I just recently just bought a 16.3 hd chestnut OTTB gelding with a lot of knee action and big stride. I wanted to know it any other OTTB has been able to make to the Big Eq level. Ultimately I want to compete in the Maclay with him. Thank you to everyone who gave me insight to a whole new perspective. But I never really got my question answered.

You really should focus on your own horse as an individual; don’t worry about the generalizations that are presented here. You have set your goals and you have chosen your horse - at this point it doesn’t matter for your purposes how many OTTBs have become big eq superstars. I really think you would be better off building a relationship with your horse and a good trainer with a focus on your particular goals than worrying about what a bunch of us armchair quarterbacks on the internet think about the topic in general. Good luck!

[Denali6298]

@ynl063w

You don’t have to do anything; the point is that if OTTBs were generally well-suited to become big eq superstars, SOMEONE would have tapped into that resource by now, and then SOMEONE ELSE would have noticed it and done it too, and then SOMEONE ELSE would have noticed and joined the bandwagon, and so on and so on and so on until we wouldn’t see special articles from ten years ago being posted here about a TB that made it to the big eq finals as evidence that TBs are in fact equally suited to big eq when compared to warmbloods.

Wasn’t there a small movement in the hunter community a handful of years ago where a couple of well-known riders decided to bring along a thoroughbred or two in the hunter divisions to promote the breed? I think Jennifer Alfano was one of them. I wonder how that went.

To a point. From a business stand point there is a higher return on average to bring the WBs up than it is to bring an OTTB up considering that if all things are equal between the two horses, the WB would sell for more. Also, on average, it takes less time to get a WB there considering they don’t need a let down period.

I do wonder how many full TBs are in the Big Eq rings that are described as a WB with unknown breeding. I mean heck, when Commentary went to the hunters someone on the thread said it was good to change the name so people wouldn’t know it was a former event horse. If there is discipline discrimination like that, there are probably people passing their TBs off as WB.

My personal horse gets mistaken for one all the time. Not that it is a bad thing, it just happens.

I still do not believe OTTBs are not less suited for the Big Eq. I truly believe it boils down to business and making money and there is nothing wrong with that.

[MHM]

@RugBug

I think your answer is really based on research you can do…if no one can readily offer up names. Look at the class list for finals, cross reference to USEF database and see if you can find the horse they are on*, look up the horse and cross your fingers their breed is listed…

She could do that. Or she could look at the horse standing in front of her and figure out what his actual strengths and weaknesses might be for the potential job. That might be more productive.

OP, best of luck with your new horse! Does he have a good brain? Is he sound? Do you have enough time left in the juniors to bring him along? Those are some of the relevant questions with any prospect for the equitation, regardless of breed.

[Denali6298]

@Chrome-chestnut

Wow, I never thought that this was going to get this much attention. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion. It’s interesting to hear what everyone has to say. The reason I asked is because I just recently just bought a 16.3 hd chestnut OTTB gelding with a lot of knee action and big stride. I wanted to know it any other OTTB has been able to make to the Big Eq level. Ultimately I want to compete in the Maclay with him. Thank you to everyone who gave me insight to a whole new perspective. But I never really got my question answered.

OP we could have answered that question in less than 9 pages!:lol: That totally depends on the horse as with everything else. Can you do it? Why not? As long as you have the time left in the juniors. Good Luck!

[retiredhorse]

@Chrome-chestnut

Wow, I never thought that this was going to get this much attention. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion. It’s interesting to hear what everyone has to say. The reason I asked is because I just recently just bought a 16.3 hd chestnut OTTB gelding with a lot of knee action and big stride. I wanted to know it any other OTTB has been able to make to the Big Eq level. Ultimately I want to compete in the Maclay with him. Thank you to everyone who gave me insight to a whole new perspective. But I never really got my question answered.

Congrats on your horse! Have OTTBs done 3’6 medals? Yes, for sure. Have they recently been winners at medal finals? Not so much. Can you still aim for Maclay with yours? Yes. If that’s what you want to do and this is the horse you already have, I don’t really see the issue in at least training for it; if it doesn’t work out, maybe reassess in a year or two. If done correctly, for both horse and rider, the training for the equitation will allow you to compete in hunters and jumpers also. Will you be competitive on this horse? That depends on your riding, obviously, and his specific brain/step/jump and what kind of training/showing you do…and some luck.

if your focus is winning…that’s kind of different and stacking the deck in your favor is more likely to get you that outcome (same reason not to buy, say, any green horse with the plan to take to medal finals that same year, kind of inadvisable, better off leasing a made horse).

In the end, when you’re in the ring, I think it depends on what particular horse you’re sitting on, not so much statistics or what other people are doing. Even a proven top eq horse can have a bad day, and yours might shine. Will you win? Dunno. Will a judge discount you for having a TB? Hopefully not; I like to think most will not (and if you are not winning, I would look very hard at the training and what’s happening in the ring and not assume firstly that there is a bias against ottbs). But it really depends on how you ride him and how he goes.

[ynl063w]

@Denali6298

To a point. From a business stand point there is a higher return on average to bring the WBs up than it is to bring an OTTB up considering that if all things are equal between the two horses, the WB would sell for more. Also, on average, it takes less time to get a WB there considering they don’t need a let down period.

I do wonder how many full TBs are in the Big Eq rings that are described as a WB with unknown breeding. I mean heck, when Commentary went to the hunters someone on the thread said it was good to change the name so people wouldn’t know it was a former event horse. If there is discipline discrimination like that, there are probably people passing their TBs off as WB.

My personal horse gets mistaken for one all the time. Not that it is a bad thing, it just happens.

You just keep going out of your way to make up excuses, and it’s become a real bore so I will keep this short. IF OTTBs, or even TBs, were as well suited to the upper levels of hunters and equitation as warmbloods, we would be seeing just as many of them in the rings as we do warmbloods. If TBs (OTT or not) were just as well suited as warmbloods, we should be seeing MORE of them because TBs dominated the hunters and equitation until the mid 1980s maybe? There is a reason the warmblood took over and pushed out the TB, and it’s not because everyone suddenly decided that they hate TBs. It wasn’t personal, and it still isn’t, so instead of being so hurt, maybe you could do something to start the process of SHOWING the hunter/equitation community that they are wrong. Anecdotes aren’t helpful in convincing anyone of anything.

And I guarantee that the reason RF Amber Eyes name was changed before her debut as a hunter had nothing to do with her eventing background. It’s just a horrible name that was not at all consistent with show hunter names, let alone the names of Larry and Kelley’s horses.

[Denali6298]

@ynl063w

You just keep going out of your way to make up excuses, and it’s become a real bore so I will keep this short. IF OTTBs, or even TBs, were as well suited to the upper levels of hunters and equitation as warmbloods, we would be seeing just as many of them in the rings as we do warmbloods. If TBs (OTT or not) were just as well suited as warmbloods, we should be seeing MORE of them because TBs dominated the hunters and equitation until the mid 1980s maybe? There is a reason the warmblood took over and pushed out the TB, and it’s not because everyone suddenly decided that they hate TBs. It wasn’t personal, and it still isn’t, so instead of being so hurt, maybe you could do something to start the process of SHOWING the hunter/equitation community that they are wrong. Anecdotes aren’t helpful in convincing anyone of anything.

And I guarantee that the reason RF Amber Eyes name was changed before her debut as a hunter had nothing to do with her eventing background. It’s just a horrible name that was not at all consistent with show hunter names, let alone the names of Larry and Kelley’s horses.

I only stated what I read in the thread from people speculating. I am not remotely hurt and quite frankly I do not care what horse people choose to ride. Ya’ll get so emotional over here and defensive its impossible to have a normal discussion. As far as starting the process to showing people they are wrong… If people want to pay my way I will be more than happy to. Unfortunately I do not have the funds to show. That is life sometimes.

[Chrome-chestnut]

@MHM

OP, best of luck with your new horse! Does he have a good brain? Is he sound? Do you have enough time left in the juniors to bring him along? Those are some of the relevant questions with any prospect for the equitation, regardless of breed.

He has a very good brain, when I went to try him it was mid day in the summer. He worked his butt off in the Texas heat and never once refused a jump when I tryed him. He passed his vet check with five stars which really surprised me because he had 26 career starts and won one for his races.
I have about 3 ish years before I age out of the juniors and he has a good foundation of dressage with his last owner and bit of jumping around 2’9-3’0. Thank you for asking.

[RugBug]

@Denali6298

I only stated what I read in the thread from people speculating. I am not remotely hurt and quite frankly I do not care what horse people choose to ride. Ya’ll get so emotional over here and defensive its impossible to have a normal discussion. As far as starting the process to showing people they are wrong… If people want to pay my way I will be more than happy to. Unfortunately I do not have the funds to show. That is life sometimes.

G’ah to the ‘emotional and defensive’ comment. I feel like I’m standing in front of some man that just asked me if I’m on my period. Double G’ah.

Let’s just call a spade a spade, though. You’ve had plenty of people that KNOW the industry at a variety of levels give you PLENTY of valid reasons why this just doesn’t happen…and yet you still say :

I still do not believe OTTBs are not less suited for the Big Eq. I truly believe it boils down to business and making money and there is nothing wrong with that.

That could be why you’re not being met with ‘normal discussion.’ I wouldn’t go over to the eventing forum and insist that Standardbreds are the next big thing in eventing and everyone is just too blind to see it because they are caught up in their own bias against them. It’s kinda rude. (Yes, I know there are some standardbreds that are amazing jumpers…so let’s not go down that tangent. ).

And yes, RF Amber Eyes is a terrible name for the hunters…even if Lane Change didn’t have their own way of naming.

[Denali6298]

@RugBug, I think where the confusion is, is as a horse TBs can be just as successful in my humble opinon. However, things change. People have less time, there are way more shows, people have to make a living (even BFNE said shes in the WB game because it makes better business sense) I have heard and in my experience (except my last mare) from many that WBs tend to be on average to be a better ammy ride. Y’all are not wrong with the reasons given. I am looking at this from a different angle. I am not looking at it from a what people need, the current H/J business model or from the industry changes. I am coming from the stand point of TBs can become Big Eq horses. Why they are not filling the Eq rings are due to all the reasons you and others have listed. Those reasons boil down to good business sense brought about by changes in the industry involving everything from time commitments of clients to course design.

[ynl063w]

@Denali6298

@RugBug, I think where the confusion is, is as a horse TBs can be just as successful in my humble opinon. However, things change. People have less time, there are way more shows, people have to make a living (even BFNE said shes in the WB game because it makes better business sense) I have heard and in my experience (except my last mare) from many that WBs tend to be on average to be a better ammy ride. Y’all are not wrong with the reasons given. I am looking at this from a different angle. I am not looking at it from a what people need, the current H/J business model or from the industry changes. I am coming from the stand point of TBs can become Big Eq horses. Why they are not filling the Eq rings are due to all the reasons you and others have listed. Those reasons boil down to good business sense brought about by changes in the industry involving everything from time commitments of clients to course design.

But there really isn’t a “different angle” when it comes to the best suited horse for a particular job. The bottom line is that whatever people (wealthy customers) need, professionals will find and provide. You don’t seem to understand how businesses work. Of course the top level equitation trainers are not going to buy OTTBs right off the track and train them up to be big eq horses. But if OTTBs were inherently well suited to BECOMING big eq finals horses, a whole lot of smart and talented no-names would have figured that out, and would buy TBs off the track, get them to whatever level they could get them to, and sell them on to those who could take them to the NEXT level. And then THOSE people would get them comfortable at whatever THAT level is, and they would sell them on to someone who could take them to the next level ABOVE that one. And that would go on until the top big eq trainers have a barn full of TB superstar eq horses.

The reason this doesn’t happen is not because people in the horse industry are looking at things from “different angles”, or because people have a hate for thoroughbreds. The “good business sense” that is keeping TBs from dominating the big eq ring really is because investing in warmbloods present much less of a risk in a sport that is inherently riddles with huge risks. Again there is no conspiracy against thoroughbreds in the hunter and equitation industry. Do yourself a favor and stop taking it so personally; get out there with your TB and win like you believe you can!

[MHM]

@Chrome-chestnut

He has a very good brain, when I went to try him it was mid day in the summer. He worked his butt off in the Texas heat and never once refused a jump when I tryed him. He passed his vet check with five stars which really surprised me because he had 26 career starts and won one for his races.(His JC name is Wild Sip by the way.)
I have about 3 ish years before I age out of the juniors and he has a good foundation of dressage with his last owner and bit of jumping around 2’9-3’0. Thank you for asking.

He sounds like he could be a superstar for you. I hope he works out well. Please keep us posted on his progress. Good luck with him!

[Denali6298]

@ynl063w

But there really isn’t a “different angle” when it comes to the best suited horse for a particular job. The bottom line is that whatever people (wealthy customers) need, professionals will find and provide. You don’t seem to understand how businesses work. Of course the top level equitation trainers are not going to buy OTTBs right off the track and train them up to be big eq horses. But if OTTBs were inherently well suited to BECOMING big eq finals horses, a whole lot of smart and talented no-names would have figured that out, and would buy TBs off the track, get them to whatever level they could get them to, and sell them on to those who could take them to the NEXT level. And then THOSE people would get them comfortable at whatever THAT level is, and they would sell them on to someone who could take them to the next level ABOVE that one. And that would go on until the top big eq trainers have a barn full of TB superstar eq horses.

The reason this doesn’t happen is not because people in the horse industry are looking at things from “different angles”, or because people have a hate for thoroughbreds. The “good business sense” that is keeping TBs from dominating the big eq ring really is because investing in warmbloods present much less of a risk in a sport that is inherently riddles with huge risks. Again there is no conspiracy against thoroughbreds in the hunter and equitation industry. Do yourself a favor and stop taking it so personally; get out there with your TB and win like you believe you can!

We are saying the same thing you can just say it better. I don’t take anything from the horse world personally. I personally could care less if TBs make a come back in the H/J world.

[Chrome-chestnut]

@retiredhorse

Congrats on your horse! Have OTTBs done 3’6 medals? Yes, for sure. Have they recently been winners at medal finals? Not so much. Can you still aim for Maclay with yours? Yes. If that’s what you want to do and this is the horse you already have, I don’t really see the issue in at least training for it; if it doesn’t work out, maybe reassess in a year or two. If done correctly, for both horse and rider, the training for the equitation will allow you to compete in hunters and jumpers also. Will you be competitive on this horse? That depends on your riding, obviously, and his specific brain/step/jump and what kind of training/showing you do…and some luck.

if your focus is winning…that’s kind of different and stacking the deck in your favor is more likely to get you that outcome (same reason not to buy, say, any green horse with the plan to take to medal finals that same year, kind of inadvisable, better off leasing a made horse).

In the end, when you’re in the ring, I think it depends on what particular horse you’re sitting on, not so much statistics or what other people are doing. Even a proven top eq horse can have a bad day, and yours might shine. Will you win? Dunno. Will a judge discount you for having a TB? Hopefully not; I like to think most will not (and if you are not winning, I would look very hard at the training and what’s happening in the ring and not assume firstly that there is a bias against ottbs). But it really depends on how you ride him and how he goes.

It’s definitely going to take a lot of training but hopefully it will pay off. I don’t think I will ever win Maclay Finals no matter the horse but I think doing fairly well is a good goal to set. When I went to try him I was positive I was going to not like him because he was a OTTB and all I wanted was a Warmblood but to my surprise he was everything I ever wanted in a horse. So even if we don’t do as well as we could have in the show ring, I will still be proud of the progress I’ve made with him.

[Chrome-chestnut]

@MHM

He sounds like he could be a superstar for you. I hope he works out well. Please keep us posted on his progress. Good luck with him!

Thank you and will do!

[MHM]

@Chrome-chestnut

Thank you and will do!

You’re welcome. And also, welcome to the BB!

[retiredhorse]

@Chrome-chestnut

It’s definitely going to take a lot of training but hopefully it will pay off. I don’t think I will ever win Maclay Finals no matter the horse but I think doing fairly well is a good goal to set. When I went to try him I was positive I was going to not like him because he was a OTTB and all I wanted was a Warmblood but to my surprise he was everything I ever wanted in a horse. So even if we don’t do as well as we could have in the show ring, I will still be proud of the progress I’ve made with him.

I think focusing on progress/training is a great perspective, especially with green horses. And, remember, even after you age out of juniors, there are still medals for amateurs! (or even hunter derbies!) They’re not quite the same as medal/maclay, but still can be a worthy goal/accomplishment and takes some of the time/age pressure off, if you continue riding as an adult. Fwiw, several years ago, an ottb won local amateur medal finals (there may have been others since then, but I haven’t kept up that much w/ results or breeding). He’s one I think could have loped around Indoors and done just fine, but never made it there, so there’s no definitive proof.