OTTBs' in Big Eq classes

[Midge]

@findeight

That TB wouldn’t be Caped Crusader would it?

No one would mistake Caped Crusader for anything but a TB.

[Mac123]

@beowulf

I think you are still missing my point - it is only “most of the time TBs take longer to train” if you are sourcing an OTTB. B

If you start with a unstarted TB, same way you start and train an unstarted WB, the amount it takes to train is generally the same. I’ve done it and I am by no means a professional.

First of all this thread is about OTTBs, as stated in its title.

Second of all, I don’t miss your point, but like I stated numerous times, finding an unraced TB - one that didn’t even train - is not easy, at least in the areas I’ve lived in. Again, why would I search and search just to find an sporthorse-bred TB when there are hundreds of either OTTBs or warmbloods at a finger’s touch? Of course, if I find a sporthorse-bred TB, I’ll look at them, and in fact, already said that I wish they were more prevalent or better advertised. Of course an unraced TB and warmblood would have a similar training track.

But again, reality speaking, they aren’t a dime a dozen. You may have them in your area and that’s fantastic for you; in my 25 years or so in the sport as both a pro and an ammie, I’ve encountered maybe a handful. Maybe.

[findeight]

Depends on whose looking, what they assume based on show record and if they ever laid eyes on him. Many told me my JCTB was Dutch, You would know and I sure did but those with less experience and newer to the sport went with the cliche stereotype preached by their trainers and I quit arguing with them. Likewise have heard many times, even recently long after he retired, CC was a WB because he won so much in the Juniors and tired of arguing.

[MHM]

@findeight

That TB wouldn’t be Caped Crusader would it? Aka Jockey Club registered Oscar Time by Academy Award by Secretariat out a mare by Best Tun by Turn To. That was almost 20 years ago but imagine they are still out there just not touted in disciplines that don’t announce or include bloodline info.
.

No, the one I’m thinking of was named Lifetime Guarantee. Or LG around the barn. Pronounced Algae on a bad day. :lol:

I don’t recall now if that was his Jockey Club name as a racehorse. He won a ton as a junior hunter with different kids, and eventually as an adult hunter later on in his career. And he was always a contender to win the hack, even in the best company.

I had forgotten that Caped Crusader was a thoroughbred, although maybe I knew it at the time. But that just shows that the thoroughbreds are out there, maybe flying under the radar a bit.

And indeed, there are so many horses in Europe that can pretty much step off a plane and into the show ring that it’s a challenge for the thoroughbreds, especially off the track, to attract as much interest. A friend of mine goes to Europe pretty regularly, and he can see literally hundreds of horses in a week or so, and decide which ones could be winners over here. Then they come over and are usually ready to show within a couple of months, if not sooner. I think there was at least one horse who got out of quarantine in Miami on a Sunday and showed at WEF three days later.

One that he brought over about twenty years ago went on to have a very good career as a hunter. He won a lot as a green horse and then as a junior hunter, and he was champion at WEF and Indoors multiple times. His show name was Spectacular Ruler, since he had both Spectacular Bid and Bold Ruler in his bloodlines on the thoroughbred side. That horse was one who could go either way. If you liked thoroughbreds, you could think he was a thoroughbred. If you liked warmbloods, you could think he was a warmblood.

[mmeqcenter]

@Midge

Got a sales listing for a winning 3’6" packer for 10k? Asking for a friend.

LOL I don’t have any, I’ve seen listings on Facebook (they’re thoroughbreds). I didn’t save them, I’m not looking for another horse.

[findeight]

I was speaking of TBs in general, not just 500 track rejects. Fact none I knew or know were ever 500 even right out from under the exercise rider and when finished were no where near 10k either. It still takes quality and that always costs more regardless of training or breed compared to average animals.

[Mac123]

@findeight

I was speaking of TBs in general, not just 500 track rejects. Fact none I knew or know were ever 500 even right out from under the exercise rider and when finished were no where near 10k either. It still takes quality and that always costs more regardless of training or breed compared to average animals.

Absolutely. The nice OTTBs that are sound and well suited for the h/j/e rings I’ve seen are usually around $2500-$3500 right off the track, and the successful ones that have good show records in the 3’ or 3’6 are selling for mid 5 figures. Not as expensive as a warmblood, to be sure, but not chump change either (for me, anyway!).

[RugBug]

Let’s just establish that I love a good TB. That I prefer my TB to my WB. But more importantly, that I prefer a good horse that is fun to ride and can help me accomplish my goals, whether that’s showing hunters, riding on the beach, or chasing cows (and god bless that horse I can do it all on)

[USER=“125583”]

[quote=“Denali6298,post:86,topic:450377”]

@ponypenny

[B]I know of no Throughbred that has the step and adjustability of today’s warmbloods.

[/B]

The sentence in bold is what people had a problem with. This is in no way, shape, or form a true statement. Many TBs have the step to get down the lines. Adjustability? That comes from training. That statement is what kicked this whole thing off. Now if one would like to argue the business model we would all be in agreement. If one wants to argue the statement in bold? One would come off looking very uneducated.[/QUOTE]

So, if you read that sentence with the realization of it being on the H/J forum and addressed to the H/J crowd with a title pointing to specifically the Big Eq ring, you have implied context. It’s really disingenuous for eventers to come in and say ‘but they can do it there because they can do it in 4* eventing.’ That’s apples and oranges.

If it was so easy for them to be an apple, you’d see them being apples. But they are better oranges…and therefore, you see a lot more of them being wonderful, successful oranges. (at least until TPTB continue to change that sport to pave the way so their apples can be more and more successful. Don’t blame that crap all on the H/Jers that have moved over.)

TBs can absolutely have the step and adjustability to do a Big Eq course. But can they do it in the required style? Just like when Greg Best pointed at that my TB (who he liked quite a bit and called the star of the clinic…and even rememberd 2 years later) would always appear quicker than my trainers 4 year old, gangly WB who looked like he loped the same course. My TB did the course wonderfully…but the WB did it in the style that is desired.

[Denali6298]

@RugBug that makes sense if step/adjustability=required style. So it seems it is more of different words mean different things to the different disciplines. I grew up riding hunters and equitation. So even, as you say, I need to read in the context of the H/J forum, I was always taught step and adjustibility is training. Style is just that.

[atl_hunter]

@Denali6298

So even, as you say, I need to read in the context of the H/J forum, I was always taught step and adjustibility is training. Style is just that.

Totally agree. Comparing “step and adjustability” to “style” is comparing those dreaded apples to oranges again. And what a shame that we are judging a horse’s style in an equitation class. I get why it happens, but still a pity nonetheless.

[Mac123]

@atl_hunter

Totally agree. Comparing “step and adjustability” to “style” is comparing those dreaded apples to oranges again. And what a shame that we are judging a horse’s style in an equitation class. I get why it happens, but still a pity nonetheless.

I agree with what you’re pointing out in terms of the differences between the style of eventers vs the style of equitation. The adjustability is different because in eventing, adjustability can come at the cost of maintaining a perfect shape or steady rhythm - just like in the jumpers, the most important part is being clean and fast. If you must flap your arms to encourage them forward, you may. If you must check them hard, causing a brief inversion and a jerky step to make the distance work, you may.

In the equitation, all adjustments must be as invisible as possible. Any sort of adjustment cannot come at the expense of a change in frame, cadence or smoothness. I don’t think it’s style of the horse so much that’s judged in the equitation as the fact that an inversion, a major change of tempo or rhythm, a change in smoothness, the horse getting on the forehand, etc., would be considered a major flaw - a lack of an ability to really keep the horse on the aids, soft and rideable to all tests in the course and at all times.

To visualize what we’re talking about when we say that the style of eventers is not comparable to the Big Eq (and therefore why saying that if the TB can do upper level eventing, he can do the Big Eq is inherently flawed), here’s the 2017 Maclay Finals Winner Maddy Goetzmann:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td5m9zg3Ax4

And this is Michael Jung at Rolex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7tebD75pM

The horses way of going, the way they move across the ground the way they jump, all couldn’t be more different. Equally different is the rider’s position. The equitation rider’s position is correct and consistent, while the eventer’s position changes frequently and sometimes goes out of position in order to accomplish what they need to. Neither is wrong, they’re both doing what they need to in order to do their jobs. But they are different.

No one is saying that a TB couldn’t do the Big Eq, just as I’m sure there’s Big Eq horses that could event. But equating the two and then ignoring the inherent differences between the two disciplines and how each breed may be naturally more suited to one vs the other, is just unfair and illogical all the way around.

[Denali6298]

@Mac123

I agree with what you’re pointing out in terms of the differences between the style of eventers vs the style of equitation. The adjustability is different because in eventing, adjustability can come at the cost of maintaining a perfect shape or steady rhythm - just like in the jumpers, the most important part is being clean and fast. If you must flap your arms to encourage them forward, you may. If you must check them hard, causing a brief inversion and a jerky step to make the distance work, you may.

In the equitation, all adjustments must be as invisible as possible. Any sort of adjustment cannot come at the expense of a change in frame, cadence or smoothness. I don’t think it’s style of the horse so much that’s judged in the equitation as the fact that an inversion, a major change of tempo or rhythm, a change in smoothness, the horse getting on the forehand, etc., would be considered a major flaw - a lack of an ability to really keep the horse on the aids, soft and rideable to all tests in the course and at all times.

To visualize what we’re talking about when we say that the style of eventers is not comparable to the Big Eq (and therefore why saying that if the TB can do upper level eventing, he can do the Big Eq is inherently flawed), here’s the 2017 Maclay Finals Winner Maddy Goetzmann:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td5m9zg3Ax4

And this is Michael Jung at Rolex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7tebD75pM

The horses way of going, the way they move across the ground the way they jump, all couldn’t be more different. Equally different is the rider’s position. The equitation rider’s position is correct and consistent, while the eventer’s position changes frequently and sometimes goes out of position in order to accomplish what they need to. Neither is wrong, they’re both doing what they need to in order to do their jobs. But they are different.

No one is saying that a TB couldn’t do the Big Eq, just as I’m sure there’s Big Eq horses that could event. But equating the two and then ignoring the inherent differences between the two disciplines and how each breed may be naturally more suited to one vs the other, is just unfair and illogical all the way around.

I get what your saying but you do realize eventers have to ride dressage too? Last I checked a horse on the forehand is not going to do well in the dressage court. Talk about adjustability, invisible aides etc. Honestly I am willing to bet a lot of eventers can lay down a nice eq round. I’m not talking about the top tier of the sport either. Apples and oranges when comparing riding style over terrain to an arena. That being said, the money side of the sport is why wbs are favored. It does take longer on average for an OTTB suited for the eq ring to go from track to eq.

[Highflyer]

@Mac123

I agree with what you’re pointing out in terms of the differences between the style of eventers vs the style of equitation. The adjustability is different because in eventing, adjustability can come at the cost of maintaining a perfect shape or steady rhythm - just like in the jumpers, the most important part is being clean and fast. If you must flap your arms to encourage them forward, you may. If you must check them hard, causing a brief inversion and a jerky step to make the distance work, you may.

In the equitation, all adjustments must be as invisible as possible. Any sort of adjustment cannot come at the expense of a change in frame, cadence or smoothness. I don’t think it’s style of the horse so much that’s judged in the equitation as the fact that an inversion, a major change of tempo or rhythm, a change in smoothness, the horse getting on the forehand, etc., would be considered a major flaw - a lack of an ability to really keep the horse on the aids, soft and rideable to all tests in the course and at all times.

To visualize what we’re talking about when we say that the style of eventers is not comparable to the Big Eq (and therefore why saying that if the TB can do upper level eventing, he can do the Big Eq is inherently flawed), here’s the 2017 Maclay Finals Winner Maddy Goetzmann:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td5m9zg3Ax4

And this is Michael Jung at Rolex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7tebD75pM

The horses way of going, the way they move across the ground the way they jump, all couldn’t be more different. Equally different is the rider’s position. The equitation rider’s position is correct and consistent, while the eventer’s position changes frequently and sometimes goes out of position in order to accomplish what they need to. Neither is wrong, they’re both doing what they need to in order to do their jobs. But they are different.

No one is saying that a TB couldn’t do the Big Eq, just as I’m sure there’s Big Eq horses that could event. But equating the two and then ignoring the inherent differences between the two disciplines and how each breed may be naturally more suited to one vs the other, is just unfair and illogical all the way around.

Ironic that you picked a WB as your example of an event horse A lot of what you’re describing isn’t innate, though, it’s a combination of experience and training. A 4* horse like Roxie that has just done a very hard xc is going to require a different ride than a fresh 4* horse at a one day where showjumping is before xc, and neither are really comparable to a 3’6 horse who has been deliberately and consistently jumped in the ring and trained to go around calmly and quietly.

[Mac123]

@Denali6298

I get what your saying but you do realize eventers have to ride dressage too? Last I checked a horse on the forehand is not going to do well in the dressage court. Talk about adjustability, invisible aides etc. Honestly I am willing to bet a lot of eventers can lay down a nice eq round. I’m not talking about the top tier of the sport either. Apples and oranges when comparing riding style over terrain to an arena. That being said, the money side of the sport is why wbs are favored. It does take longer on average for an OTTB suited for the eq ring to go from track to eq.

Is there any scenario where you don’t look for things to get so offended by?

Yes. I know eventers do dressage. But their way of going in their dressage test is different than their way of going during their cross country ride. But you know what? I’m out.

I’m done. I don’t even know why I tried to be a reasonable voice in this thread and try to have some honest discussion.

We get it. Eventers can ride better than anyone, especially the lazy hunter/jumper riders who buy their ribbons while flopping around on their expensive warmbloods’ backs…while we sip champagne and have our grooms give us manicures. We all suck and all we care about is money. Every single last one of us.

[RugBug]

Thanks, Mac123. When I used the term “style” it’s not to denote the same thing as it would in a hunter round. There is a desired way of going for Eq… the course must look slow, unhurried and any changes are invisible. If that wasn’t a requirement, you’d see a lot wider variety of horses competing in the Big Eq.

@Denali6298

I get what your saying but you do realize eventers have to ride dressage too? Last I checked a horse on the forehand is not going to do well in the dressage court. Talk about adjustability, invisible aides etc. Honestly I am willing to bet a lot of eventers can lay down a nice eq round. I’m not talking about the top tier of the sport either. Apples and oranges when comparing riding style over terrain to an arena.

Huh? How does what happens in the dressage court come to bear on what happens in the jumping arena when there are no requirements other than time and leaving jumps up? Nobody said that an eventer can’t have invisible aids, etc…but they don’t have to on either XC or show jumping. You do not have to look slow and unhurried. You have to have an adjustable horse with step, but you don’t need the other things. It’s just not the same and pretending like it is just avoiding facts.

That being said, the money side of the sport is why wbs are favored. It does take longer on average for an OTTB suited for the eq ring to go from track to eq.

This is one reason. There are myriad others. But like someone brought up, if there were tons of TBs that were able to be competitive in the Big Eq (or even hunters), you’d see them. Do you really think that potential goldmine is just being ignored because of some bias against TBs? No. Heck…most of our judges will still say the favorite horse is the TB and they want to see more of them. They are being ignored because it’s harder to breed the right individual ($$$) or find the right individual that will meet the requirements*. It may also be harder to bring them along and to find someone that can ride them well.

*I’m just waiting to see what the American Pharoah babies do. They are TASTY…but they won’t make it to the other sports until they fail out of racing because of the cost to put them on the ground.

[Denali6298]

A) Not offended. B) Never said eventers were better. C) I believe it is you who is offended. If you want honest discussion then it would be wise to not compare an EQ round in an arena by a very talented junior rider to Michael Jung (who is the second coming WRT Eventing) running cross country. One HAS to have a different riding style over terrain.

FYI Fischerrocana FST is not a TB.

[Denali6298]

@RugBug one can’t compare a X-Country round to an EQ round to make a point. That is stupid. Event horses HAVE to be adjustable because Dressage. Pretty sure Michael Jung could lay down a pretty damn good EQ round.

My point is, if required eventers and show jumpers can probably lay down a respectable EQ trip. I mean do our show jumpers not come out of the Big Eq ring?

[RugBug]

@Denali6298

@RugBug one can’t compare a X-Country round to an EQ round to make a point. That is stupid. Event horses HAVE to be adjustable because Dressage. Pretty sure Michael Jung could lay down a pretty damn good EQ round.

You’re right, XC isn’t what is comparable. It’s show jumping. Here’s Amy Tryon and Poggio II. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNRpFEHlwI

William Fox-Pitt and Parklane Hawk (lovely round…but still more pace than an eq round…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVB6J5lYcEw

Nice rounds, but not Eq rounds. Could they do it? I would doubt that Poggio would’ve made it in the Eq ring (just like Flexible or Rothschild wouldn’t). Parklane Hawk is lovely and perhaps could have been an Eq horse.

[MHM]

@RugBug

*I’m just waiting to see what the American Pharoah babies do. They are TASTY…but they won’t make it to the other sports until they fail out of racing because of the cost to put them on the ground.

I am hoping I will still be able to swing a leg over a horse by the time his offspring start to trickle down to become show horses. In his pictures, he looks BEAUTIFUL, and very correct, and the videos of him trotting around loose in the paddock make him look like a hack winner to boot. And he always looked remarkably level headed during his racing career, especially when Bob Baffert would bring him out to let the fans and reporters interact with him.

I already put in a request for one of his slow babies when I toured Coolmore last year, even though the horse himself was in Australia at the time. Fingers crossed! :lol:

[Oliver4Ever]

@Denali6298

@RugBug one can’t compare a X-Country round to an EQ round to make a point. That is stupid. Event horses HAVE to be adjustable because Dressage. Pretty sure Michael Jung could lay down a pretty damn good EQ round.

My point is, if required eventers and show jumpers can probably lay down a respectable EQ trip. I mean do our show jumpers not come out of the Big Eq ring?

It is amazing how you love to lump all eggs in one basket. Some do. Some don’t. The Europeans don’t even have equitation.