OTTBs' in Big Eq classes

[Sing_Mia_Song]

I have a friend who, like me, grew up doing equitation in the 80s on TBs. WBs were just starting to make their influx into the hunter/jumper/eq rings, but the vast majority of horses at these shows were still TBs.

My friend is the daughter of professionals who trained a Maclay winner. After college, she went off to Europe for several years and apprenticed. When she came back to the US, she had a nice list of contacts to find horses who weren’t suitable to the jumper/eventer/pure dressage world over there, but that had the demeanor for doing the equitation.

One key thing I recall her saying was that, in her comprehensive experience, the TBs in general did not hold up to the kind of pounding that equitation horses get nowdays; that horses are now expected to live on the road in tent stalls for week after week, and that it takes a particular type of individual to be able to handle that.

I think that’s a key factor to think about as well: not only have the courses changed, but showing as a whole has changed dramatically. Back in the day, our barn hit maybe 6-8 A shows (what today would be considered AA) per year, plus Devon and Indoors. We filled in the rest with 1-day B or C/local shows to pick up our Medal/Maclay wins and USET points. Horses went home at the end of the day and got turned out in their own paddocks. Remember, too, that we only had three finals to think about. Now you have to add in the WIHS, so that’s another two jump rounds per show. That’s a lot to ask of a horse (too much, IMHO, but that’s another thread), plus have him live on the road for weeks out of the year. Back then, only the elite went to FL or CA. Now it’s standard.

I guess my point is that the job description has changed. I don’t think kids are lazier–I recall plenty of kids who phoned it in back in my day. Many of today’s kids are working hard on the ground plus riding several horses a day. But the pay to play is also much, much more expensive, and Mom and Dad want some results for the kind of money they are spending now. It’s not unreasonable as a trainer to try to find your student the most appropriate horse for their goals (getting to/around/winning at finals) for the amount of $$ they have to spend. Frankly, that’s just good business.

Look, I love the TBs, and I think folks are right that there are individuals in the Big Eq ring that are untattooed TBs that mysteriously misplaced their identities. But they are rare overall, for many of the reasons described in this thread, but especially the way of going. The top eq horses have that “ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum” cadence to their canter, they jump from anywhere, and they extend and collect like it’s just another day at the office. Their expression and demeanor never changes. Like it or love it, that’s what pins right now. If you have a TB that goes like that. he’ll win, too.

[Oliver4Ever]

^ This is what I said in less words several pages back. What amazes me most on this thread is how condescending the eventers are. I give up. Y’all have totally convinced me, that we HJ people are just a bunch of wealthy uneducated unhorse people and all we care about are ribbons. I guess I’ll go to some events now so I will know how real riders ride and care for and train horses.

[MHM]

@Sing Mia Song

The top eq horses have that “ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum” cadence to their canter, they jump from anywhere, and they extend and collect like it’s just another day at the office. Their expression and demeanor never changes. Like it or love it, that’s what pins right now. If you have a TB that goes like that. he’ll win, too.

The same is true for the hunter ring. The winner is the horse that can fulfill the respective job description, regardless of breed.

I know of a thoroughbred that came off the track in my neck of the woods. He turned out to be a lovely junior hunter, and he won everywhere from WEF to Indoors for years and years. He was fortunate that someone spotted him in the first place, and started him on his very successful career path when he was done as a racehorse. People who did not know the horse’s background probably had no idea he was a thoroughbred.

Those horses do exist, but they might not stand out from the warmbloods in an obvious way.

The title of the thread mentions OTTBs, not unstarted TBs. So that’s a little bit of a different discussion.

[RAyers]

@Oliver4Ever

^ This is what I said in less words several pages back. What amazes me most on this thread is how condescending the eventers are. I give up. Y’all have totally convinced me, that we HJ people are just a bunch of wealthy uneducated unhorse people and all we care about are ribbons. I guess I’ll go to some events now so I will know how real riders ride and care for and train horses.

And eventers are tired of the dismissive attitudes that are seen in the Hunter world in that our horses are unbroke and poorly trained. It’s an argument I have with my sibling (local hunter judge) on a regular basis.

Eventing is seeing a large influx of h/j folks who
can’t afford to show at h/j shows. But that is also causing a change in the types of horses here too.

As a child of the 70s and 80s, I saw how the h/j world changed its business model from the amateur to the dedicated pro who sought wealthy clients. I saw how the focus on showing and winning became the norm, paramount to training and horsemanship. I moved from h/j to eventers in the 90s because it still had the “horsemanship” component due to the long format. Now the h/j business model has seeped into the Eventing world sadly. We are now seeing the
TB get pushed out there for one reason: money.

I agree that the WB fits this business model better because of what you say. Sadly, it is happening everywhere.

[Oliver4Ever]

[QUOTE=RAyers;n10216845]

And eventers are tired of the dismissive attitudes that are seen in the Hunter world in that our horses are unbroke and poorly trained. It’s an argument I have with my sibling (local hunter judge) on a regular basis.

Eventing is seeing a large influx of h/j folks who
can’t afford to show at h/j shows. But that is also causing a change in the types of horses here too.

As a child of the 70s and 80s, I saw how the h/j world changed its business model from the amateur to the dedicated pro who sought wealthy clients. I saw how the focus on showing and winning became the norm, paramount to training and horsemanship. I moved from h/j to eventers in the 90s because it still had the “horsemanship” component due to the long format. Now the h/j business model has seeped into the Eventing world sadly. We are now seeing the
TB get pushed out there for one reason: money.

I agree that the WB fits this business model better because of what you say. Sadly, it is happening everywhere.[/

What - you agree, I have to be reading this wrong

[Denali6298]

@PonyPenny

A good perspective would be to watch the old Maclay finals at MSG on Youtube and compare them with today’s courses. I know of no Throughbred that has the step and adjustability of today’s warmbloods.

@Oliver4Ever The sentence in bold is what people had a problem with. This is in no way, shape, or form a true statement. Many TBs have the step to get down the lines. Adjustability? That comes from training. That statement is what kicked this whole thing off. Now if one would like to argue the business model we would all be in agreement. If one wants to argue the statement in bold? One would come off looking very uneducated.

[Oliver4Ever]

@Denali6298

@Oliver4Ever The sentence in bold is what people had a problem with. This is in no way, shape, or form a true statement. Many TBs have the step to get down the lines. Adjustability? That comes from training. That statement is what kicked this whole thing off. Now if one would like to argue the business model we would all be in agreement. If one wants to argue the statement in bold? One would come off looking very uneducated.

I didn’t say this so why is it directed at me? But adjustability also comes from the brain not always training

[Denali6298]

@Oliver4Ever

I didn’t say this so why is it directed at me?

I am aware you didn’t say that. However, your last post made me realize y’all are missing our point entirely. I think those of you who ride the hunters and love your WBs got wrapped around the axle about why people were defending the TB. It was never about which is better. It was about inherently false statements like the one quoted. It is not about eventers thinking they are better than H/J or TBs are better than WBs.

[Oliver4Ever]

@RAyers

And eventers are tired of the dismissive attitudes that are seen in the Hunter world in that our horses are unbroke and poorly trained. It’s an argument I have with my sibling (local hunter judge) on a regular basis.

I don’t know where that comes from. I’m more upset with bloody mouths and rotational falls. I too have connections at the upper levels in the eventing world. But would never go over to your forum and pick this fight.

Eventing is seeing a large influx of h/j folks who
can’t afford to show at h/j shows. But that is also causing a change in the types of horses here too.

So the change in your sport you are now blaming on us? Maybe you need to self examine.

As a child of the 70s and 80s, I saw how the h/j world changed its business model from the amateur to the dedicated pro who sought wealthy clients. I saw how the focus on showing and winning became the norm, paramount to training and horsemanship. I moved from h/j to eventers in the 90s because it still had the “horsemanship” component due to the long format. Now the h/j business model has seeped into the Eventing world sadly. We are now seeing the
TB get pushed out there for one reason: money.

We seem to be close to the same age. I started in the 60s and have a daughter who does the jumpers. We have trainers who still teach horsemanship, just look harder. Those of us who care about it and want to pass it on do that.

I agree that the WB fits this business model better because of what you say. Sadly, it is happening everywhere.

Wow - you agree??? (Just kidding) The only thing that we can depend on is change. Obviously we have both adapted.

[Oliver4Ever]

@Denali6298

I am aware you didn’t say that. However, your last post made me realize y’all are missing our point entirely. I think those of you who ride the hunters and love your WBs got wrapped around the axle about why people were defending the TB. It was never about which is better. It was about inherently false statements like the one quoted. It is not about eventers thinking they are better than H/J or TBs are better than WBs.

Well, people have lots more than ONE point on this thread. I’m sorry if I took this wrong, but it is the way I took it. You are on the HJ forum, criticizing and telling us how ribbon hungry and lazy we are not to want to take the time to train correctly.

[Oliver4Ever]

@RAyers

And eventers are tired of the dismissive attitudes that are seen in the Hunter world in that our horses are unbroke and poorly trained. It’s an argument I have with my sibling (local hunter judge) on a regular basis.

Eventing is seeing a large influx of h/j folks who
can’t afford to show at h/j shows. But that is also causing a change in the types of horses here too.

As a child of the 70s and 80s, I saw how the h/j world changed its business model from the amateur to the dedicated pro who sought wealthy clients. I saw how the focus on showing and winning became the norm, paramount to training and horsemanship. I moved from h/j to eventers in the 90s because it still had the “horsemanship” component due to the long format. Now the h/j business model has seeped into the Eventing world sadly. We are now seeing the
TB get pushed out there for one reason: money.

I agree that the WB fits this business model better because of what you say. Sadly, it is happening everywhere.

I don’t know where you get that we think that. I’m more upset with rotational falls but would never go pick that fight. I too have close connections at the upper levels in the eventing world.

Im sorry you are not happy with the change in your sport, but maybe self reflect instead of blaming the HJ world.

We seem close to the same age. I started in the late 60s. I understand your thoughts here, but I and now my daughter have been with a trainer who wins at the major shows and promotes horsemanship. Would not have it any other way. People pick their trainer on what works best and makes them happy. Don’t blame your issues on other people’s experiences.

You agree!!! Change is the only thing you can depend on. We are both still here, enjoying the sport. Best of luck and Happy Trails!

[PonyPenny]

@Denali6298

@Oliver4Ever The sentence in bold is what people had a problem with. This is in no way, shape, or form a true statement. Many TBs have the step to get down the lines. Adjustability? That comes from training. That statement is what kicked this whole thing off. Now if one would like to argue the business model we would all be in agreement. If one wants to argue the statement in bold? One would come off looking very uneducated.

I said that I know of no Thoroughbred that has the step and adjustability of today’s warmbloods. They may exist, but I do not know of one. I am not dissing Thoroughbreds, as I grew up with them. I am glad that you know of several. I wish I did .

[Farosh]

Im not really an equitation person but there’s no reason a tb can’t do the big eq and I’m pretty sure I saw an article in the last 2 years about a young boy who won some big eq final or something on a horse who raced. Also within the last 5 years I saw a girl win a big eq medal at VSF on a horse that was like 15 hands lol. Tbh no matter how adjustable your horse is I think eq courses are just easier to do on large, slow horses and on average warmbloods are larger and slower than TBs lol. As for whether riders are lazier or not now I can’t really say but all the competitive big eq riders I know love and ride all types of horses well. I know a girl who does the big eq actually with a horse that ran 3rd in the Preakness one year! But he’s a laid back horse lol very large and slow but can be fast if you ask him to. Horse has an enormous step, anyone saying TBs don’t have the step to do it is ridiculous. Some tbs do, some don’t. Some warmbloods do, some don’t. I rode a fresh Tb the other day who bucked and zig zagged and stil did the correct steps without running down the line and someone else on a fancy branded warmblood added 3 steps going straight lol. On average, I think warmbloods are better suited to the job, but plenty of tbs are just as nice. I think generalizing breeds is fine as long as you’re aware that generalizations and averages don’t inherently suggest anything about individuals.

[vxf111]

I don’t necessarily think it’s so much that a TB is never up to the job but so few people are breeding TBs for the hunters anymore so there are fewer and fewer purpose bred ones to begin, so fewer and fewer to train, so fewer and fewer making it and being available to do the job. There is a huge difference between the purpose bred TBs of the 70s and your average random OTTB of today. Do I think the breed has the ability? Yes. Do I think most OTTBs can make it today? Different question. Probably very few. OTTBs today are largely unlike the purpose bred TBs of yesterday.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Sing Mia Song

I have a friend who, like me, grew up doing equitation in the 80s on TBs. WBs were just starting to make their influx into the hunter/jumper/eq rings, but the vast majority of horses at these shows were still TBs.

My friend is the daughter of professionals who trained a Maclay winner. After college, she went off to Europe for several years and apprenticed. When she came back to the US, she had a nice list of contacts to find horses who weren’t suitable to the jumper/eventer/pure dressage world over there, but that had the demeanor for doing the equitation.

One key thing I recall her saying was that, in her comprehensive experience, the TBs in general did not hold up to the kind of pounding that equitation horses get nowdays; that horses are now expected to live on the road in tent stalls for week after week, and that it takes a particular type of individual to be able to handle that.

I think that’s a key factor to think about as well: not only have the courses changed, but showing as a whole has changed dramatically. Back in the day, our barn hit maybe 6-8 A shows (what today would be considered AA) per year, plus Devon and Indoors. We filled in the rest with 1-day B or C/local shows to pick up our Medal/Maclay wins and USET points. Horses went home at the end of the day and got turned out in their own paddocks. Remember, too, that we only had three finals to think about. Now you have to add in the WIHS, so that’s another two jump rounds per show. That’s a lot to ask of a horse (too much, IMHO, but that’s another thread), plus have him live on the road for weeks out of the year. Back then, only the elite went to FL or CA. Now it’s standard.

I guess my point is that the job description has changed. I don’t think kids are lazier–I recall plenty of kids who phoned it in back in my day. Many of today’s kids are working hard on the ground plus riding several horses a day. But the pay to play is also much, much more expensive, and Mom and Dad want some results for the kind of money they are spending now. It’s not unreasonable as a trainer to try to find your student the most appropriate horse for their goals (getting to/around/winning at finals) for the amount of $$ they have to spend. Frankly, that’s just good business.

Look, I love the TBs, and I think folks are right that there are individuals in the Big Eq ring that are untattooed TBs that mysteriously misplaced their identities. But they are rare overall, for many of the reasons described in this thread, but especially the way of going. The top eq horses have that “ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum” cadence to their canter, they jump from anywhere, and they extend and collect like it’s just another day at the office. Their expression and demeanor never changes. Like it or love it, that’s what pins right now. If you have a TB that goes like that. he’ll win, too.

Hold the phone… TB’s won’t hold up? I know this is not you saying this, but I find it interesting. That is the OTTB lifestyle! Living on the road at times, lack of turnout, living at the track, hard workouts etc. Some hold up, some don’t, and some are straight up warhorses. Many people own those warhorses that have raced to 7+ years old from a 2 year old and are now making a fine sport horse. I’ve also seen a lot of Warmbloods have soundness issues. Toss up, really.

Somewhat related: I live in Europe in “Warmblood Central” Germany/Belgium. There is not as much of a hunter/jumper scene here, but you can bet that people are figuring out how to zero in on that American market because it’s $$$. I’ve since stepped out of the HJ world, but a friend of mine that has sold some fine sport horses/jumpers in his day asked me just the other day more about the hunter horse. He’s seeing these price tags and wants to cash in. I said I’d educate since I’m familiar with the scene and have spent some time in America. He’s had horses over the years that would have made great HJ horses, but he didn’t know it.

The stable I am at now actually has a decent number of TB’s (smaller racing community here) and a lot of Warmbloods so it’s interesting to watch my little sample pool here.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

As someone who breeds horses…,I finally just have to make a correction. A WB is NOT a breed. It’s a mutt. Its a catch all term for a European mutt…granted they are hopefully a thoughtfully purpose bred mutt. A TB is a breed and a closed book. WB registries are by and large open book (they do need to be approved) originally just based on geographic location where the mare was located. I have a broodmare approved by 3 registries. Depending on the sire that I choose…I can pick between the 3 registries as to which one I want to register the foal (and which brand…although most are not branding anymore).

There are WB purpose bred for Dressage or jumpers. Surprisingly…many purpose bred for dressage are now ending up as show hunters moreso than ones purpose bred for jumpers.

But it just drives me nuts. Just because something is a WB doesn’t mean much to me. It matters more what is it’s actual breeding. The same is true for a TB but that at least is a breed and has a bit more consistency. And most WB do have quite a lot of TB blood as the TB blood adds and helps the athletic abilities of that mutt!

[PonyPenny]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/standing-out-sea-warmbloods

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Just for fun/comparison, I checked out some videos on YouTube of the Maclay from way back, when it was still held at Madison Square Garden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbX16dX8880

Certainly very different horses and courses.

[findeight]

@MHM

The same is true for the hunter ring. The winner is the horse that can fulfill the respective job description, regardless of breed.

I know of a thoroughbred that came off the track in my neck of the woods. He turned out to be a lovely junior hunter, and he won everywhere from WEF to Indoors for years and years. He was fortunate that someone spotted him in the first place, and started him on his very successful career path when he was done as a racehorse. People who did not know the horse’s background probably had no idea he was a thoroughbred.

Those horses do exist, but they might not stand out from the warmbloods in an obvious way.

The title of the thread mentions OTTBs, not unstarted TBs. So that’s a little bit of a different discussion.

That TB wouldn’t be Caped Crusader would it? Aka Jockey Club registered Oscar Time by Academy Award by Secretariat out a mare by Best Tun by Turn To. That was almost 20 years ago but imagine they are still out there just not touted in disciplines that don’t announce or include bloodline info.
.

But back when I started there was more open land where the barns were located and it was a hobby for enjoyment. Today it is big business. There aren’t any POS horses living in the field to catch and learn on because there’s no field and it costs far too much to carry kick around horses in an suburban environment instead of rural . Emphasis on the Medals has increased tenfold, no longer a stepping stone for the future, it’s an end unto itself, a be all, end all at a very young age. And a goal with a ticking clock before aging out.

Things change, some better, some worse and many neither, just different, IMO one of the worst is nobody seems to be developing young horses now. Getting them to around age 6-7 WTC both ways with a lead change and started over fences, Enough so a buyer can evaluate the possibilities. It’s cheaper to do that over there and there’s a lot for buyers to look at in one trip. That’s got a whole lot more to do with it then WB-TB. Great deal of that has to do with stereotypes on both, the OTTB stigma and price cliches as well as the myth all Euro horses are well trained in Dressage (yeah right, anybody who has ridden some of them right off the plane is howling at that one).

Bottom line the industry has changed. It’s not going to change back. I have to agree with these points…

That today’s courses don’t favor the good galloping horse in Hunters or Jumpers and most Eq horses today are coming out of the Jumpers. That’s related to squeezing the sport into smaller spaces and urban sprawl eating up open land.

Most kids do not have the time, transportation, access to a suitable facility or finances to bring along a youngster before they age out.

Not sure the TB breeding industry is producing the suitable types for second careers in substantial numbers with the fading of distance and Turf races, Thats arguable but the fact is prospects with that build and talent do not command the big bucks at auction time and many are sold overseas and out of the available gene pool. They, too, are a bigger business on the financial side then 20 years ago.

Also like to correct that " fact" that “all” recent Medal winners come out of the same four barns. No they didn’t, they showed under them at Finals and some for qualifiers but they had " at home’ trainers. At least one was a trainers kid, at least one a barn employees kid, neither full time clients of those EQ barns, neither taught to ride or developed by them. Just polished by them. The 3 or 4 others I know were also long time clients elsewhere only under that umbrella for the Big Eq. Might be the minority but a long way from “all”.

[Midge]

@mmeqcenter

I frequently see thoroughbreds listed for sale with gobs and gobs of experience, absolute packers and WINNERS at 3’, 3’6", that the owners can’t manage to sell for $10k, verse a WB with same experience for $40k.

Got a sales listing for a winning 3’6" packer for 10k? Asking for a friend.