I’m sorry, but your general assumption about the HJ world rewarding purchased ribbons, and not horsemanship, is just as bad as people saying all TBs can’t make it in the Big Eq. It is unfair for anyone to lump all in one box. Yes the HJ world is not perfect, but neither is the eventing world. I also would never dream of going over to the eventing forum and throwing stones. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
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Yes, this (both posts but I snipped for brevity). If someone were asking for advice re buying a horse for equitation, I would say look at ones that are already jumping at least, especially if time/age/skill is a pressing factor. So, those are likely WBs. But if someone is looking at a horse they already have, say it’s an OTTB, and going, “hmm, maybe this one has the brain/step/jump to be a big eq horse”… then, try it? Train for it and see what happens – so much of general horse training /showing goes like that anyway. The issue is if one thinks one’s horse is more capable than it actually is, or is deliberately looking at “off-breed” horses to show in eq/hunters (and jumpers, to an extent, but that at least is objective, except for the striding*). I mean, you (general) CAN, you can do whatever you want; but, why? If you want to win, if you want to get to finals and be competitive, why not stack the deck in your favor as much as possible. If that’s not your priority… then why does it matter what horses are in the finals? Ride the horse you have, or look for one that you love to ride, who cares what other people are riding.
*Then there’s the “bias” against small horses/honies and horses with a shorter than 12’ step… :winkgrin:
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It is just MY opinion, but I feel that TPTB eliminated the Long Format in Eventing (for the most part), because the warmbloods (European/riders) were not nearly as competitive at the Upper Levels as the Thoroughbreds, OTTB or not.
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Well, that’s certainly missing the boat on the $$$$ side.
The biggest reason that the big time trainers stick with imports is because they can justify the commission for the ‘elite imported hunter’ aka fancy failed jumper. Its easy to inflate the price, deflate the age and hide the history (aka wear and tear)
Try to sell a horse that there’s proof you bought at $500 for $100 000 as a hunter or eq horse? Everyone laughs themself to death, even if you’re kicking the ass of the similarly priced wb.
The trainers are selling the cachet of the import because that’s what’s paying the bills. Historically, TBs have competed successfully over bigger courses than anything being done now.
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It amazes me that people think TBs don’t have the step or athleticism for a hunter course, when they have the step and athleticism for four star events… which make many hunter divisions look like child’s play.
It is not the breed that lacks ability, it is the fact that no one is training them, the stigmata against TBs as a whole in that discipline, the lack of actual experience with TBs, and the fact that a TB that is just as nice as a WB will still, at the end of the day, sell for less than the WB even if all other things were equal…
Right now it’s their resale value that is not competitive, not their actual innate ability. There is so much more tied into why TBs aren’t as popular today, than just their breed. Not all WBs, bred for hunter/big eq/whatever, excel at it either - not all WBs are innately gifted with talent, ridability, or scope for these divisions either… but it seems that the common conception is that the best TB representative is still not on par with the worst WB representative.
One thing that I will say, that people are quick to either forget or not address, is that the TB as a general rule comes from the track and it is their past career that often limits their future soundness or sport ability – not the other way around – the fact that TBs can race, and then go on to homes in eventing, HJ, whatever… that shows they are sound and capable; so many people are basing their assessment of a TB’s ability/suitability for h/j on their experience with TBs that came off the track… find a TB breeder and a horse that was not bred for racing and you will find an animal that is very similar to a WB, in many ways. Most people only deal with TBs that come off of the track - and that will certainly skew the data, as WBs never have to contend with that before they start their HJ career.
Find a quality TB that never endured racing or race training, and train it the same way you train the WBs for Hunters, and I think you would be pleasantly surprised at the TB’s training progression. I have a TB (one of many, BTW) who should be in the hunters, and I get comments all the time on it because of his natural step, fantastic canter, and all around unflappable attitude - but guess what? It’s not what I want to do.
TBs come in all shapes and sizes. There are TBs out there who look like nags. There are TBs out there who fool even WB breeders. Not all TBs are hot, or stiff, or unable to jump.
I have experience with both breeds (well, registries on WB’s behalf), both training and owning. They both have their own shortcomings but as a whole, I would not say either are less athletic than the other. WBs have their own subset of issues, some I have never dealt with in TBs - and sometimes TBs have presented me with difficulties WBs have never shown me… but at the end of the day I do think spread across the entire population, that the trainability and the athleticism in both breeds is largely the same.
That being said… the most athletic, catty horse I ever sat on was not a WB. It was a retired 4* eventer that was 100% TB, and raced before he became an eventer.
The skill is in finding the good one and bringing it up the levels; not many people have the money, the time, the inclination, the skill, or the connections for that – and that is a human problem, not a TB one.
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Possibly are video will be easier than trying to explain: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=calgary+chuckwagon+races
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Yes, TBs are able to compete in 4* events, but the style and way of going is entirely different than a 3’6 or 4’ hunter class. Most TBs do not have that lofty, slow, big canter and corresponding slow, super round jump that is pinning right now in the big hunters (note that I said most, not all). In my experience, it is much harder for the TB to go in the current modern hunter style in the 13’ step over the bigger jumps. I’m not saying I agree with the style, but I do find it harder to achieve on the Thoroughbred type. Not that it isn’t possible, but I do find it harder or less natural for them than it is for most warmbloods.
To the TB breeders that aren’t breeding for racehorses…I’d love to see those advertised more heavily! For every 10 TBs I see advertised for sale, maybe 1 hasn’t raced. I’d love it if TB sporthorse breeding was more of a thing.
Again, it’s easy to say “people just don’t want to put in the time and effort to retrain a OTTB.” Sure, you can say that, but as a non independently wealthy amateur, I’ve tried the OTTB route several times and retraining them isn’t always easy, it isn’t always a guarantee, and takes a lot longer. With limited resources, when I look at buying a project that’s bred for jumping and has been started with that in mind against buying a TB that has raced and needs to be let down and retrained to an entirely different discipline…the first option may be more expensive, but the second has more risk. I think that plays into a lot of people’s decisions. It’s tough.
Like I said, I wish the TB breeders breeding for sporthorses would either do more or advertise more…I’d totally go for that. But I haven’t seen more than a handful of sporthorse-bred TBs over the years. Maybe that’s just the area I’m in!
ETA…I do think there is stigma around the TBs, as well as a current culture that isn’t experienced or patient enough to train them well. BUT, I think some of it is labeled stigma when it really isn’t.
Would I buy a very talented, athletic quarter horse that has been working cattle for the last several years as an h/j prospect? Would I buy a very nice, athletic appy that’s been doing the breed show circuit as a h/j prospect? Would I buy a nice, athletic TB that’s just come of the track as a h/j prospect? The answer to all of those is Maybe…but when weighed against warmblood prospects that won’t have to be retrained and who have the breeding and start for the discipline at hand, sometimes the warmblood just makes more sense at a basic level. And I say that as a person who absolutely would buy an “off breed” horse as a h/j prospect if it were the right horse. But again, as someone with limited means and with my own goals, I have to select the horse that make the most sense and has the least risk. Sometimes, that’s a warmblood.
It’s not always stigma or prejudice.
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Some of these posts are hysterical. A good horse is a good horse. And a hell of a lot of good horses are TBs. I’ve known just as many crappy WBs. If they jump well…and are produced well…they do well. Yes, I’ve known a few OTTBs sold into the eq world…people are probably saying they are WB of unknown breeding. They were all big good looking geldings and sold for mid 6 figures. After they were produced to a high level. The equitation test are NOT that difficult of a test for a well trained horse. They are very tough for a teenage rider to ride well…really tough to ride smoothly and perfectly. But give me a break saying a TB isn’t athletic enough or trainable for that. That is nonsense as those tests have very little to do with breed of horse. You just need a very tractable horse and preferably smooth and attractive. They are generally expensive because they have good minds and a lot of training put into them.
Now if you are talking 1.6m horse…well those are rare regardless of breed. And most will be purpose bred…but will have quite a bit of TB blood.
As for big and athletic…THIS is a 4 year old OTTB less than 6 months from his last race…sorry it’s a Dressage lesson. Being retrained by an adult amateur (me). Super jump too and 17 hands (still growing too). and yup…uneducated eyes have thought he was a WB. There are many very good TBs still out there…even OTTBs. If I wanted…he could certainly be produced as an equitation mount. He’s got the mind, jump and will have the movement …but I have no desire to send him in that direction. And FWIW. I currently own 4 OTTBS all big solid geldings like this boy over 17h. They are not that hard to find…If you have the right connections.
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Yeah, the hard part of the hunters isn’t really getting over the jump, especially when they’re 3’6 and under, or down the lines (unless you have a short strided horse). It’s HOW they do it. I mean, within the same show, a horse could win the GP and still not be a good hunter/eq horse. The last TB hunter I can think of who, 1) I saw in person, and 2) cantered and jumped like that (and sold for a ton of money) was N’Sync. I’m sure there are more around who are less known and that I haven’t seen. If I saw one like that (or at least that potential), and I could afford it, I’d buy him for sure.
Would I buy a very talented, athletic quarter horse that has been working cattle for the last several years as an h/j prospect? Would I buy a very nice, athletic appy that’s been doing the breed show circuit as a h/j prospect? Would I buy a nice, athletic TB that’s just come of the track as a h/j prospect? The answer to all of those is Maybe…but when weighed against warmblood prospects that won’t have to be retrained and who have the breeding and start for the discipline at hand, sometimes the warmblood just makes more sense at a basic level. And I say that as a person who absolutely would buy an “off breed” horse as a h/j prospect if it were the right horse. But again, as someone with limited means and with my own goals, I have to select the horse that make the most sense and has the least risk. Sometimes, that’s a warmblood.
It’s not always stigma or prejudice.
Yup. I would at least go look at those horses and try them, if possible (and I have! Wouldn’t I love to buy a horse for $500 or 5000 or 15000, and sell it for $100,000). But I wouldn’t deliberately look at only/mainly “off-breed” horses to do what I want. Even if their purchase price was lower, the difference would have to be huge to make up for the risk factor. Plus the people I know in the industry have mainly WBs, so it’s easier to find one that’s been sitting or has some workable training issues that would lower their price tag, vs trying to find new connections elsewhere.
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Running horses are generally bred to be built with a downhill build, which is the antithesis of a jumping horse. That is a significant barrier for the modern TB to be competitive in today’s H/J world. It is more often overcome and many of those horses are successful eventers, but you just don’t see them at the top levels of the H/J world. I have 2 TBs (one ran, one didn’t) and a warmblood myself. The warmblood is clearly more talented over fences than the TBs, but the TBs are pretty delightful and talented themselves.
I’m late to riding/showing hunters since I grew up in Montana where there were pretty much only Quarter Horse and similar shows, but my observation of the horses being shown today is that for those in the business of selling jumping horses to make enough money to really make a living, they need to turn them around pretty quickly. Getting horses already jumping courses in Europe is a fairly “easy” way to do that. Horses showing in Europe are pretty much all warmbloods. Eq horses are often former jumpers, so it isn’t surprising to me that the vast majority of eq horses are warmbloods. If there were a plethora of TB jumpers to move to the eq, they would be there.
Who knows what the show rings will look like 10 years from now. I sure hope that with the renewed emphasis on OTTBs as well as the incentives to show them, that we might see more in the A and AA circuit show rings!
Mind you these are just my observations from showing around Texas and reading COTH, The Plaid Horse, etc.
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Did you really just say that?
You do realize that TBs are being run when they are still growing and many times they will even out after their careers. And, racehorses still have to push from the hind to get speed. This means that if you look at the hind end angles for a racehorse, you will find they match the angles on jumpers and not dressage horses.
My last 3 OTTBs were very even after their careers and 2 somehow managed to jump up to 6’, one in the jumpers (puissance) and the other on XC.
As a friend who has a Trakhener line in Germany noted, the breeders there recognized that by changing the judging and rules at the FEI levels, they could open the US markets to their products and hence make plenty of money on their rejects. That is also why they pushed for the short format in eventing. It removed the final hurdle for WBs to go XC. Shorten the courses so endurance is no longer needed. Make the courses similar to jumper courses as well.
As for my comments, so far the ONLY common theme I see among all those who say WBs are best for equation is MONEY. Either the poster justifies the need to spend money to win, spend money to buy and ride with “big names,” or that the only way to judge quality of a horse is their price. Not one person has given an effective counter argument as to why a WB would be better at the job than a TB, e.g. the conformation of the stifle, hock, shoulder; the brain/trainability…
Consider the 3’6" oxer, 55’ line 3’6" oxer example. It is a simple training method to show/train adjustability. If the oxers are square, a horse has to stretch across the first oxer, compact the step in the line and then stretch out again over the fence. Making the line 64’ or 65’ is actually EASIER because all the horse has to do is stride the line after getting in, and with a 16’ step that is easy.
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Here’s the thing - it would take just as long to retrain a WB as it would a TB, if they were both trained as race horses. I think you are missing the point, because you are comparing your progress with an OTTB to your progress with a WB that was never started/raced. Apples and oranges; you would need to compare two horses raised similarly, and started at the same time, by the same trainer, to measure any sort of appreciable difference. I’ve gone that route and can say the end result is largely the same.
If you start an unstarted TB the same way you start an unstarted WB, I think the amount of progress barring any blips in soundness, freak accidents, etc, would be very similar. It certainly has been in my experience, with my own horses.
Most of the time you are retraining an OTTB, you are fighting past baggage and/or physical baggage – not the TB’s innate athleticism/ability. WBs do not have that issue (at least out of the gate), since they are never trained or started for racing.
There are plenty of TBs who can move / pat the ground in that idealized canter - and jump that way… they are nowhere near as rare as you think.
Honestly, I don’t know many riders or trainers in the HJ circle that have enough first hand experience with TBs to be any sort of authority on them, their personalities, or their limitations – but they are often very quick to disparage the breed as a whole despite their limited experience with them.
I am not saying TBs are the end all/be all to everything. Yet… if I had a dollar for the number of times I had someone who is a trainer, rider, clinician, instructor, or someone passably familiar with horses exclaim “that is a TB!?” in utter disbelief, I’d probably be able to purchase my next mount by now. I do not think most people are familiar with what a grown up, filled out, properly muscled, sport-bred TB looks and moves like - including BNTs and clinicians. If they knew, I wouldn’t hear their disbelief over it so often.
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A kid that’s ready to step into the big eq ring is going to try horses that are already in the eq ring, or will transition easily.
WB’s are going to be the mostly likely breed available to be tried for a kid looking to buy. I know of a trainer that imports about 6-8 WB’s a month. They are all ready to step into a show ring( hunter, jumper or eq) within a month of import, some have gone right to a show from quarantine . These horses sell fairly quickly.
That same trainer would not be able to go to the track, buy 6-8 TB’s and get them to a show ring within a month.
This is a $$ business… people will sell what is faster & cheaper to sell, in this case, a trained WB. It makes no sense to buy a bunch of TB’s to try & sell within a month and expect any sort of profit. Thus, there are more WB’s then TB’s. Doesn’t mean one breed is better then the other. The WB is just a better product for the trainer to quickly market & make a profit.
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But that’s the whole point. Warmbloods aren’t trained to race.
Never once in any of my posts have I disparaged the TB breed, it’s athleticism or its ability. Ihave owned more TBs than warmbloods. My best jumping horse was a TB.
My point is that those who get so defensive about TBs think it’s always stigma or disparagement of the breed, but it isn’t always. Sometimes, it’s just reality. TBs, just like the QH or Appy I also mentioned in my post, most of the time require retraining.
Again, I pose the idea that with many people’s limited time and resources, and considering their goals, buying something that requires retraining has more risk than something that does not.
It’s not a disparagement or criticism of the breed. It’s the reality that whether it’s retraining my husband’s appy who did breed circuit her whole life or an OTTB, it takes time and patience, and sometimes there are things so ingrained by their previous training that they can’t be overcome.
That alone is enough for many people to look to the warmblood.
All I can deal in is the example of TBs I have seen in my career in the areas I’ve lived. 99% of them were off the track, and the ones who I felt were naturally suited for the hunter/equitation rings were the exception, with a bit more suited to the jumper ring. Your experience may be different, and it sounds like you’ve seen many more of the sporthorse-type TB than I have, and I’m glad that they are out there.
I feel like I’ve said it a hundred times to no avail, so this’ll be my last post on this thread, but my simple point is just that the TB proponents try to make this far too simple and assume that everyone hates TBs and doesn’t think they’re athletic. It just isn’t that simple, and while there are unfair stereotypes, there are also some good reasons that people stay away from the TBs.
You don’t see people lamenting why the QH doesn’t pin in the hunters or why the Draft Cross isn’t seen in the equitation. What is it with TBs that everyone gets so defensive about?
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I think you are still missing my point - it is only “most of the time TBs take longer to train” if you are sourcing an OTTB. B
If you start with a unstarted TB, same way you start and train an unstarted WB, the amount it takes to train is generally the same. I’ve done it and I am by no means a professional.
Right now, TBs are simply not competitive with WBs when it comes to their valuation. That is, quite simply, one of the biggest reasons you are not seeing them in the HJ ring right now.
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Same here. I grew up with trainers who had a lot of OTTBs/TBs (one of the local hot stallions was a hunter TB, but not nationally famous I don’t think) go through the barn. Some didn’t stay, some were decent-to-very-good, some stayed but were ill-suited, none were the quality of N’Sync – I do think that kind of canter and jump IS rare, in any breed. So IDK if we’re also talking about different levels of ability/quality for hunters/eq.
I will say I think the same thing watching 100s of horses in a show Germany or Holland go around; a small percentage I think would make good hunters or eq horses. I don’t know where I could see a bunch of non-raced young TBs over fences, at “failed jumper” prices (well, I don’t even know if that exists anymore either).
What is it with TBs that everyone gets so defensive about?
The “ex”-factor? :lol: Because they were “it” before?
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Actually, It’s all about contacts and connections. I know a few who are now buying from certain eventers. Because they can buy a better started more well trained horse and turn them into an EQ from an eventer. Not all TBs for sale are straight off the track. Many have been restated and can easily step into the show ring. But it is more with contacts…and don’t get me started on the whole commissions game.
Why are so many eventers on TBs…there still are more riders in this sport who can develop green horses themselves…and they are generally more versatile and have a better gallop…besides the fact that if you are looking at OTTBs, they many cost MORE than a WB to breed but if they are not good enough to race, you get them more affordable. As for the length of time…I breed WBs because I can sell them for more to AAs and honestly, they are cheaper than trying to breed TBs. I can’t afford the stud fee on a lot of the TB sires…yet I can on some of the most desirable WB stallions. I’ve backed and started many horses in my lifetime. It doesn’t take me any longer to develop a WB than OTTB. And honestly, most of my OTTBs are easier and quicker to bring along.
Again…it’s what someone is more familiar and where you have the connections more than anything.
This is the first post that actually explains why WBs work better in the h/j world.
It is the money.
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Uhh probably because it won’t actually sell for six figures. They’ll barely even sell for five. Because that’s simply not where the industry is at right now. I frequently see thoroughbreds listed for sale with gobs and gobs of experience, absolute packers and WINNERS at 3’, 3’6", that the owners can’t manage to sell for $10k, verse a WB with same experience for $40k. Why put in years of training and showing on a horse when you won’t get ish for it simply because it’s a thoroughbred?
Or, because the $500 thoroughbred is bought by people like me for a reason - because that’s what I can afford. I can’t afford more than a couple shows a year. You think “penniless” people can afford to show a horse the amount required to be considered a top equitation mount?? Hahahahahahahahahahahaahaha
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