Well I will then leave you to your puzzle. It seems you are stuck at “B” my point is at “E” so C then D and you will arrive where I’m at. I’m all outta hints.
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Oh I see. I hope you can get yourself to bed very soon and that you can sleep in as much as you need to in the morning.
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I realize it’s probably a waste of time to wade into this thread at this point. But.
That is a huge aspect that may not be obvious to the casual observer. Some kids ride with the “big four” types year round, while others may just work with them at the finals, or Devon and finals, or WEF and finals, or what have you, to add some extra polish when it really counts the most.
Often part of that extra polish involves making sure the rider has access to a top horse who has been there and done that, and maybe even won in the past. Some of those horses are specialists, just like the trainers. Those horses might not show at all for eleven months of the year. I believe that was the case with last year’s Maclay winner. He gets turned out after the Maclay finals for a vacation for most of the year and then gets legged up again in time for Indoors. That’s not a new approach, either. We had one that was on that same annual schedule thirty years ago.
People also seem to forget that the famous trainers weren’t born famous. They made names for themselves by producing winners in the first place. And once they’ve done that, they don’t forget how they did it. If anything, they should get better at producing winners over the years with more practice.
The other part that seems to be under the radar for many is that the warmbloods imported from Europe often have a fair amount of show experience in the jumper ring. It’s much less expensive to put some miles on a horse over there at the smaller shows. And the horses are bred for that purpose in the first place. So if you import a seven year old that was bred to jump and showed for two years in the jumpers in Europe, it may not take that long to get it smoothed out and into the equitation ring.
A seven year old OTTB, on the other hand, was probably not bred to jump in the first place, and may need more time to make the transition. And the show mileage here is much more expensive. Plus if you’re talking about a kid who will age out of the equitation at 18, and may not be ready to make up a green horse until they’re 15 or 16, that’s a pretty narrow window. Most of the kids who do well at the finals go multiple times for experience before they’re really contenders. Ditto for the horses.
I’m not saying the OTTB is less athletic or less likely to turn out to be a good horse. But there are practical considerations that make it a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison.
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Isn’t there an innate prestige to riding an expensive imported warmblood?
You need to be rich or well associated with the rich to be competitive…
And rich people like expensive imported things.
Just look at the cars they drive.
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So, your definition of a good capable horse is based on how much you can sell it for?
Why would I want to sell horses? I have a research professor position and I run my own company. I buy OTTBs and retrain because I love to ride them. FYI, yes, my last OTTB I sold was literally free and I sold it for $25k to a dressage young rider.
I LOVE this statement! So, a 3 mile chase is a short distance? Or a 6K 40 fence XC course is a short distance?
My former trainer’s World Cup XC horse was a WB. UGH. I had to gallop it for conditioning. It was a pig and barely could hold 550mpm for a mile, while his TB pulled the entire mile and held 660mpm easy. Have you actually ever been to a track?
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First, Um, if you read, I was responding to Ponypenny. And the statement made by that person was EXACTLY “I know of no Throughbred that has the step and adjustability of today’s warmbloods.” And YOUR statement directly contradicts her claim, thank you.
Second, please explain how one designs a course to a 17.2 hand horse? I’d be fascinated. Most course designers I know and talk to never mention designing a course specific to horse height. They do discuss shape of jump, adjustability, tests of whatever…Are these course designers that lazy and stupid? Oh, and some of my friends have designed at FEI WC and Olympic levels, before you think that I haven’t had discussions with capable minds.
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One advantage to riding an OTTB in Medal/Eq classes is suitability for the rider. Typically a narrow-barreled OTTB can help a short/stocky legged junior kid look longer & leaner, vs a thick-barreled WB. With all the flat work needed to properly prep an eq horse, having a kid who can really wrap their legs around the horse could be an advantage.
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Umm, No. When the horse goes in the ring the announcer does not announce the horses price tag or history. Ok - one of the most bazaar things i have seen here
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Well in California the car de jour is a Tesla.certainly not an import, but damn expensive.
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Not really. Imports have a dressage foundation, so the flat basics are already there. Not all warmbloods are chunky either. Go watch Maclay regionals in your area. You will horses of all different heights and build along with different shaped riders
Not that bazaar. While the announcer does not announce the horses price tag, people know. People talk in that community and they know how much your (general) horse cost. They talk.
Not all imports have a dressage foundation, and no, the flat basics are not already there in some cases. A lot of horses that are trained over here (in Europe) reach America and their owners that aren’t even capable of riding them. You’re more likely to get a horse with a dressage foundation, yes. It isn’t always a good foundation, however.
I totally agree that warmbloods come in all shapes and sizes. Plus, there are many breeds under the umbrella of warmblood.
A lot of people get caught up in some prestige element of having a horse imported or from Europe. From Europe doesn’t always = better. I think that some Thoroughbreds are quite capable of adjustability and putting in a solid performance in the hunter/jumper world, but they don’t carry the same “fad factor” of being imported. It sounds shallow, but the industry kind of is to some extent. If you have money it’s easier to buy a warmblood with basics from Europe vs a TB fresh off the track that you have to retrain.
Personally I think TB’s are adjustable and very responsive. Which is needed for eventing and why they are so popular in that world.
One BNT put it this way:
TB: I’m slowing down now!
WB: I’m sssllloooowwwiinnggg ddoowwnn nowwww… .
Generalization, yes, but I’ve seen it be applicable.
I will say that the modern WB is purpose bred for sport, whereas most TB’s are race bred. That doesn’t mean that a TB cannot make a fine sport horse, but there is likely to be less of them perhaps.
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I did not know that every horse at Finals was 17.2hh
I know a TB in my area that was very successful in the eq. He is certainly one of the most comfortable, adjustable and handy horses I’ve ever ridden. He’s an old guy now, but I have no doubt was a fabulous eq horse.
There is a lot more to the question than just thoroughbred vs warmblood. A thoroughbred that has the size, conformation, movement and soundness to do the big eq’s exists however at least where I am from your odds of finding one that meets those criteria for $500 - $1000 is slim unless you have some excellent contacts at the track. One of the primary reasons I have heard for this is because the chuckwagon drivers look for a very similar type and are willing to pay good $ for a quality prospect. With these ones never being seen by hunter jumper clients I think it turns into a chicken or egg situation where the hunter jumper people see a lot of poorly conformed, unathletic race track rejects that the owners are trying to find a suitable new career for so are pitching them as a low level jumper prospects. There are plenty of warmbloods that fall into the same category just do a better job of flying under the radar.
Another thing to consider is that it seems that every time there is a TB vs WB debate people forget we aren’t exactly comparing the best to the best. To breed to the BEST thoroughbreds costs significantly more than to the best warmbloods. Look at American Pharoah as an example, his stud fee alone is $300,000… vs Arko III at 1500 Pounds. One has been purpose bred to run but seems to be producing foals with the conformation I would want in a jumper, the other has generations of purpose breeding for jumping so pretty sure I know which I would choose to breed to if I had a mare I was looking to breed.
The reason I bring this up is it is way easier to start with a blank slate and develop a horse for the sport you are riding in than to have to do a bunch of retraining. So even from an economical standpoint the warmblood may make the most sense financially in the end. Initial purchase will be more if you are comparing warmblood to OTTB however all expenses after that are going to be the same and it will take more time to develop an OTTB to the same level as a warmblood (I am am talking generalities, and know there are exceptions). So in the end you may not have seen any financial savings and you have to be more accepting of risk since with most there is no chance to try, free jump, or even see them moving free when selecting a horse off the track. They also are starting with more wear and tear on their joints, tendons etc before having any training related to being an eq horse.
So rather than saying that people are biased against TB’s and it isn’t fair maybe look a little deeper: If you are relying on training and selling horses to make a living, which would you rather fill your barn with: the less expensive but higher risk training prospects, or the more expensive but more known commodity? As has been previously mentioned most of these riders won’t have enough time to develop their own horse before aging out of the eq’s which means they are purchasing already going mounts if they want to be competitive which goes back to the question of which way do trainers want to invest their money when working with young training horses.
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I think there are so many more nuances than most of the sweeping statements and arguments stated in this thread.
There are so many misconceptions, too. Every warmblood isn’t easy to ride, 17.2, or capable of getting around a finals course. And every thoroughbred isn’t hot, quick and small.
As I’ve learned over this past year, the problems in our horse world are far, far more complex than most of us are willing to really admit, and they are based in layers upon layers of reasons for the way things are.
Many things have changed to make the hunter/jumper/equitation rings favor the warmbloods. The warmbloods are currently “in style,” just as TBs were 30 years ago. Regardless of whether we think that should be the case, it simply is, and regardless of whether judges should discount a horse based on the breed, we all know they do (try riding an appy or quarter horse if you think being on a TB comes with prejudice!). The reality is that much of this sport is based on image and presentation. If you put a morgan down centerline in an upper level dressage test, even a good one who proficiently demonstrates all that he should, he will not be scored the same as a big-moving warmblood.
…and with that, comes a change in the supply and demand, and thus price. Again, we can argue all day long about capability or how things should be, but the reality is that a very nice, successful thoroughbred will sell for much less than a very nice, successful warmblood. And thus, that impacts people’s decisions when they consider their next project horse. Unless budget is a factor, why develop something you know has a price ceiling based when you can develop something that doesn’t?
So we can argue fairness all day long, but to do anything productive, we have to deal in reality and the implications of that reality on the industry, its economics, and the impact on buying and selling trends - all of which turn into a vicious circle. Anyone in advertising will tell you that it doesn’t matter what IS, it matters what one perceives it to be.
More factors…The warmbloods are bred to jump and have that innate instinct for jumping, whereas TBs are bred to run, and have that innate instinct to run. The warmblood is trained to the English sports from the time he is broken, while most TBs have raced and must be re-trained. Changing what the TB does and how he uses his body after years of racing, which is very different than what’s asked for in the hunter/jumper/equitation rings, takes time - and sometimes just isn’t in the cards.
Warmblood breeding has changed to include more thoroughbred blood, and most modern warmbloods are the best of both worlds in terms of mixing characteristics of the cooler and warmer bloods. TB breeding has changed, and we see far less of the big-boned, solid, more uphill balanced TBs than we did 20-30 years ago. Course design has changed, and while we used to see big, bold courses with many unrelated distances, many times outdoors, we now see exacting courses that require the utmost of rideability and precision, and a degree of collection that favors the warmblood more than the TB, in small rings. Judging has changed, and now the precision and perfection of any given trip outweigh brilliance or the position/ride of the rider. Horse husbandry has changed, and most show horses are now kept mostly indoors with little turnout, a management style that favors a specific type of horse.
Horse showing has changed, and rather than 12 weeks a year, many are showing upwards of 30. Culture, kids and parents have changed, and many aren’t willing to put in the time, patience, and have the lack of pressure and expectations you need to retrain a OTTB. More and more kids are horse showing rather than riding, and by that I mean that they ride to show, rather than ride because they love it and show because it’s fun. I actually don’t necessarily or automatically insult the former type of rider in the sense that “horse showing” takes its own type of skill and dedication, but it does produce a very different type of rider - and horse - than those who are riding bareback, swimming, doing local open shows, jumping, trail riding, and horse showing.
I could keep going, but my point is simply that things have changed. Many things. To say that the warmblood or thoroughbred are the same is silly, and likewise silly is oversimplifying why the warmblood is currently more popular than the thoroughbred in the hunters/jumpers/equitation…and that’s likewise as silly as saying that a thoroughbred can’t do the things our modern sporthorses do in the hunter/jumper/eq arenas.
There are exceptions to every generalization, and though the warmblood is currently de rigeuer, he is so for both legitimate, practical ones as well as some unfair stereotypes and the cyclical results of an industry that’s changed in the breed it favors.
In personal, anecdotal experience, I’ve had both warmbloods and thoroughbreds, and I think that while the breeds are decidedly different, they can be quite difficult in very different ways. Those who think warmbloods are easy are sorely mistaken. My warmblood mare is far more difficult than any of the thoroughbreds I’ve ever had. But she also has far more scope, power, movement and stride than any of them.
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Absolutely true. If you can make friends with one of the big money wagon racers, you can get your hands on some lovely TBs once they are determined not suitable for the wagon. The racers up where I used to live go to Kentucky every year and come back to Canada with liners full of big geldings. Several of them they get through claiming races, so well before they would be available for the average buyer looking for a cheap prospect retired from racing.
And here you make a fatal assumption. A morgan CAN beat a WB because there is only score that would count towards movement. There are plenty of arabs, QH, and others that have made it to GP levels, meaning they scored just as well as WBs to get there. Unlike what is happening in the the hunter/eq world where movement seems to be a defining factor.
You are assuming that one MUST win to have what it takes to accomplish the given task.
You also point out the glaring failure of the show world, it focuses on winning and showing, not the horsemanship and training. It rewards purchased ribbons, not earned ribbons.
What does this have to do with the TB? Those who judge, train and show, have deliberately pushed out certain breeds simple for the financial gain they get by having a closed system.
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Tangent alert.
What are these chuckwagon races of which you speak? Is it a Canadian thing?
No, I am not making a fatal assumption. A thoroughbred CAN beat a warmblood, and they do, just as the Morgan CAN beat the warmblood in dressage.
But when you look at Dressage in the Olympics or WEG any of the top dressage classes, you don’t see Arabs and QHs. Yes, they exist, even at the GP level at some shows, exactly as the TB does sometimes exist in the top hunter/equitation classes (supershorty posted a link to a story about a TB in the Medal Finals earlier in this thread). But I would make the argument that the percentage of “off-breed” horses in dressage as compared to warmbloods is similar to that in the hunter/jumper/equitation world. They exist, but not in large quantity. And personally knowing many dressage riders and having groomed at regional finals, I have seen just the same breed snobbery in the dressage world (a world where the judging should be more objective as there’s a set of judging standards) as in the hunter/jumper/equitation world (a world where judging is entirely subjective to begin with).
Just like a Morgan CAN beat a warmblood in dressage, a thoroughbred CAN beat a warmblood in the hunter/jumper/eq rings. It just simply doesn’t in large quantities. I’m just stating facts here, not opinions.
I also do not assume that “one must win to have what it takes to accomplish the given task.” In fact, I don’t think I mentioned winning one time in my post, even in my Morgan horse example. But there are realities to what the modern show arena looks for and there are realities to the type of horse that can most easily display those qualities. I’m not saying I agree with them whatsoever, but it is reality.
I simply pointed out that the industry favors the warmblood for many, many reasons. And it’s not simply breed snobbery, although some of it absolutely is.
Again, I think we can ALL accept that certain thoroughbreds, brought along properly and with the right characteristics (just as I would say about any warmblood), can have all the right qualities to be excellent hunter/jumper/equitation horses in the modern show arena. My point is simply that the underlying issue about why we don’t see them, why judges don’t reward them fairly, why people don’t think of the breed fairly, etc., is far more complex than “People can’t ride and just want to buy ribbons” or “People hate thoroughbreds and love warmbloods.” There’s a LOT more to it than that - and while most of it isn’t positive, most of it isn’t easy to unwind or fix, either.
As well, I must point out that breed snobbery exists in every discipline I’ve witnessed, from the local shows who don’t know what to do with my warmblood mare among a sea of stock-breed horses, to the western/rodeo shows who specifically use stock-horse breeds and laugh at warmbloods, to the English disciplines which have grown to favor the warmblood over thoroughbred and any other breed…shoot, racing is the most exclusive of them all, only allowing thoroughbreds or quarter horses. This isn’t new, and 30 years ago it was the thoroughbred who was more favored in the hunter/jumper/equitation rings than any other.
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