Outlast vs Alimend vs SmartGut Ultra for horse with history or gastric ulcers

[Bugs_s_Mom]

I dug through several threads and saw comparisons of these but for horses with different issues. My horse was treated very successfully for glandular and squamous ulcers this time last year (scoped pre and post treatment). I had to move him in November and gave him the 1/4 tube dose of GastroGard for a week after moving him. He did not come out of winter so great this year and I am really rethinking everything diet wise with him. He lost over 50lbs while not in any work at all due to me being pregnant and him having some lameness issues that are now resolved

His current ration daily split into 2 feedings:
4lbs TC Sr
2lbs alfalfa pellets
1.5C TC 30% balancer
3C Purina Outlast
1 scoop biotin (scoop provided)
1 scoop Actiflex (he is an OTTB after all)
.5C chia seeds (dry)
~10-15lbs coastal bermuda hay
1 small flake timothy hay ~1lb maybe

I recently added 2 scoops of cool calories daily (scoop provided)

He has a shiny coat when not covered in dirt but the weight loss has me concerned. He wasn’t happy with the coastal (provided by the barn) and didn’t eat the amount given at each feeding. He has been on coastal for the 2+ years I have owned him so that isn’t a new hay for him. He has absolutely no grass right now but green sprouts are appearing in patches around the farm. Right now I am trying to get him to spring and green grass but am really trying to plan for next year with regards to better hay and will likely buy my own to keep his weight up. I am thinking a timothy orchard mix or a timothy, orchard, alfalfa mix for next winter.

The biggest thing I am wondering about right now is if the Outlast is actually cutting it or if I should consider an alternative for pH balance? Feeding Outlast more than twice daily outside of any midday exercise is not possible in my situation. I also don’t know if putting out additional hay is possible either, I may be able to have a whole bale put out for him at both feedings but I would have to buy it, not against that just trying to be budget mindful here. Also no guarantee the AM person will go for that…I could try if that is the best plan here.

All that rambling to say, what have you guys had good luck with during the winter in NC? Based on the above information what should I consider changing first? Should I change any of that right now or wait a couple more weeks for April and green pastures to arrive? What ulcer prevention have you found to be most effective if fed twice daily? What am I missing here that could account for the weight loss? The only real difference from this barn and previous is they had a few small patches of rye grass in one of his pastures at the old barn.

Thanks!

[candyappy]

It can’t help that he is getting so little hay a day (10-16 pounds) and I wonder if having inadequate hay would influence how well any of these would work?

[Bugs_s_Mom]

He doesn’t even eat that entire amount. I could be wrong on the exact amount he eats, will weigh the hay when I feed this weekend to get a more accurate idea of what is offered. He definitely wastes a lot of what is offered though. The timothy flake is always gone but the coastal is left behind. He got less hay at the other barn but ate what was offered.

[candyappy]

Sounds like he would benefit from a lot more Timothy since he isn’t liking the Costal Hay ( I have no experience with that) but obviously that is not in your control.

Very frustrating when your hands are ( basically) tied.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

Yes, it is so frustrating! I can buy my own hay and right now as he is pastured alone but we do plan to add in a buddy once grass comes in. The other horse’s owner would likely agree with whatever I decided to do hay wise but not sure she wants to buy all of the hay needed for her horse in a season (understandable). I could probably just go buy a few more bales of the timothy to get me through the next month and just prep nets or have the whole bale thrown into an old water trough daily. We operate like a co-op, BO feeds a few times weekly and the boarders feed the others, with one hired person feeding in the AM weekdays. This is why it is a little harder for me to control his hay entirely but I do have more flexibility than a full care barn.

[JB]

@Bugs_s_Mom

~10-15lbs coastal bermuda hay

that’s about half of what he should be getting, unless he’s really small, like 800lb, and easily 100% responsible for the weight loss

I totally get that he may not eat more because, well, it’s Coastal, but this is largely the biggest issue. Your hay options for next year sound great, especially if you can find straight OG or Timothy, and straight alfalfa, to mix as needed. But a TAO mix is good too, the more varieties the better, and that’s unlikely to be heavy in the A.

Outlast works directly to buffer stomach acid. It doesn’t do anything for the hind gut.
Alimend works generally all over, but it is $$$. GutX is a potential alternative. Relyne is another similar product, also, $$

SmartGut Ultra has great potential for all around support, probably better than GutX, but since there’s so much behind ulcer issues, it’s really just a guess which will work better

Me, personally, I’d let the grass come in, getting as much more hay in front of him as you can, and see how he does with that. You should be able to tell within another 4-6 weeks.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

Thank you! I will try to get extra timothy to get him through and see how he does. Would it be worth getting some alfalfa hay to add to the timothy and feed more of those? I don’t want to overload the protein here so am a little hesitant to just blindly throw tons of alfalfa at him. Next year I will rebalance his entire ration based on the hay I get (will do analysis if it doesn’t come with one). He isn’t showing the previous signs of ulcers which makes me think it is just the fact that he apparently HATES the coastal. Obviously the adage “they will eat if they are hungry” is not entirely true because he is hungry or he wouldn’t have gone from easily 1300lbs to maybe a hair over 1200lbs since November. I know coastal isn’t the best, but when it is provided as part of board sometimes the wallet wins. Next winter I will buy the hay myself and negotiate if I can a reduction in said board, if not I can likely stretch it anyway.

I haven’t looked into Relyne but given the lack of signs of ulcers (for him it was dull coat, eating serious amounts of wood, teeth grinding constantly and sensitivity to his midsection being touched) I would say the Outlast may still be working.

If I fed him daily I would buy all three hay types individually but I cannot feed that often because of work. I do think I will target the TOA blend and try that. I know of at least one source locally but am looking into that already for next year. Are there any other hay options I should consider aside from what is mentioned to replace the coastal for next year? One thing to consider is the buddy he will get has Cushing’s, he isn’t fat at all but definitely have to be mindful of that when developing a plan for my horse.

[steelerino]

Coastal hay is garbage get rid of it and up the timothy.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

I know it sucks, I really do but that is what a lot of barns feed around here. Many of them include this in your board and last year he did ok with it and no timothy was provided. This coastal is less than ideal even for coastal though. I’ll get more timothy to get through a few more weeks and sacrifice to the grass gods that green grass takes off like a rocket in his pasture soon.

[JB]

@Bugs_s_Mom

Would it be worth getting some alfalfa hay to add to the timothy and feed more of those? I don’t want to overload the protein here so am a little hesitant to just blindly throw tons of alfalfa at him.

if you’re sticking to maybe 40% of the total forage, as alfalfa, there’s no worry about excess protein

@Bugs_s_Mom

I know coastal isn’t the best, but when it is provided as part of board sometimes the wallet wins. Next winter I will buy the hay myself and negotiate if I can a reduction in said board, if not I can likely stretch it anyway.

You’re unlikely to get a break, but if you can feed some hay of your own, and let him have whatever Coastal he’ll eat, then you mitigate the risk of the Coastal (ileal impaction), and help you wallet a bit.

From what you list, I’d stick with the Outlast for now, it doesn’t seem like a change there is warranted.

@Bugs_s_Mom

Are there any other hay options I should consider aside from what is mentioned to replace the coastal for next year? One thing to consider is the buddy he will get has Cushing’s, he isn’t fat at all but definitely have to be mindful of that when developing a plan for my horse.

What is the PPID horse’s restriction now?

@steelerino

Coastal hay is garbage get rid of it and up the timothy.

It’s not inherently garbage. I boarded and rode at, for many years, a barn that fed straight Coastal for upwards of 30 horses a day. It was lovely hay from South Carolina, done very well. Nobody was fat (ok, maybe a few ponies were a little hefty), for sure nobody was thin. Horses got anywhere from 1-2 3qt scoops of feed twice a day, ponies 1/4-1/2 scoop mostly.

Good Coastal is decent hay especially for easy keepers. But no, it’s not ideal for harder keepers.

@Bugs_s_Mom

This coastal is less than ideal even for coastal though

this is the real problem, not that it’s Coastal. Lower quality coastal is stemmy and not tasty, and unfortunately it’s easy to do Coastal that way.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

The PPID horse is on TC Sr 5lbs daily and the same coastal and timothy as my horse. He also gets Prascend one tab daily, no other restrictions.

The coastal at my previous barn was definitely better quality and horses did well on it. They definitely weren’t fat but healthy, this stuff is just a mess this year. A second load was bought when I moved to the current barn and that load was not anywhere near good quality but the BO wasn’t hearing it and feeds it. I do think you have a point @JB that I likely won’t get reduced board but maybe I can give him half of what he needs in a better quality hay and let him have coastal for the rest or maybe a 60/40 ratio.

For the next 4ish weeks I’ll throw some alfalfa and more timothy at him and then grass should be plentiful. Once grass is in I just throw whatever T/A I have left until it’s gone and work on the plan for next year. He won’t be back in work until June most likely as I’m due in May and will need time to recover and balance life with a newborn.

[lenapesadie]

If he’s dropping weight I’d quit the split of TC Senior and TC RB and go to a full serving of Senior. Bonus if you can swap to the TC Senior Gold - it’s got enough gut support stuff in it you might could drop the Outlast too.

My horses eat a mix of Bermuda (Alicia) and Timothy/Orchard. They eat the T/O first and then snack on the Bermuda. If I have my horses ate straight T/O/A they’d either get as big as the barn or I’d have to seriously restrict their rations. If you can get something with a bit of alfalfa in it that might get you a little extra stomach support. Maybe up him to two or three flakes of the Timothy or whatever you can get that isn’t a Bermuda and then he can pick at the Coastal Bermuda between meals.

Best of luck!

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@lenapesadie, thank you for the advice. I got a bale of alfalfa yesterday and am throwing a flake at him daily in addition to the pellets. His grass is starting to come in, it’s patchy but coming in! I also decided to give the Gutx a try and will switch once the Outlast runs out. Unfortunately I just bought two bags of regular TC senior, but will reformulate his ration once that runs out and may switch to gold, I’ve used it before with no issues.

I need to run the numbers on his whole ration this week factoring in the GutX and increased alfalfa, then see where I can tweak things.

[Equisis]

I’m in agreement that his lack of forage consumption is likely to blame. He should be consuming twice as much as he currently is, and the solution to that may be finding a hay that he likes better. Unfortunately this may be cost prohibitive based on your location, and your board cost.

Also a note on the GutX- we scoped a number of horses in the barn recently, and the two who get GutX both had multiple types of ulcers. These horses get unlimited forage and are generally managed well. Small sample size, of course, but it isn’t something I would choose as an ulcer maintenance option.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@Equisis, good to know, maybe I should just cancel the order then…

At this time changing hay is an issue. If it were the dead of winter I would figure it out but we are getting grass in which helps and I will throw extra hay at him for the next few weeks until we have a true grass stand. I am looking at options for next year though. Whatever I get will have to be trucked in but have been working with some others to get a group order directly from a grower up north to help reduce cost.

[lenapesadie]

That’s good. Alfalfa hay is a really valuable tool imo. One of my horses is an aged TB. I give him a flake of alfalfa when he’s separated for meals. Tasty enough that he cleans it up relatively quickly and it packs enough calorie punch that I don’t have to go crazy trying to juggle the hay in turnout with his plump friend lol.

The TC Senior gold has the “same” marine calcium that is the active ingredient in Outlast, plus electrolytes (good for our hot summers), plus more calories than regular Senior AND lower starch. If you’re boarding but buying your own grain, I’d try and put him on that ASAP and cancel that GutX and the Outlast and the RB. Simplifies your feed routine and saves money that you can put towards alfalfa hay and/or hay for next winter.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

I cancelled GutX and will use up what I have of the other items then make the switch. I dumped two bags of regular Sr. Saturday but he goes through it relatively quickly and my feed store stocks both so switching is easy. I do buy my own grain so have full control in that aspect.

I would love to be able to cut one thing at least out of his diet, I should have thought about the gold when getting grain but was so wrapped up in hay it completely slipped my mind. At least regular Sr. is still good feed but Gold does have a little more oomph.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

A follow up question as I don’t remember what we did when he had Gold before. Do I need to do a mix to incorporate or can I just switch instantly? I know they are both pretty similar but are not exactly the same and don’t want to add any complications to his life right now.

Thanks!

[lenapesadie]

For sure the regular Sr is still a premium feed.

I did a gradual switch with mine when he went from regular to Gold but only over a few days as it is so similar.

[SCI]

I have had real success with GutX. I have two on it and they both have been more relaxed and less reactive. Neither have been scoped since they’ve been on GutX but both have been treated in the past and currently get Ulcergard when traveling/showing or under stressful situations. Even when weaning off Ulcergard I’ve noticed a bounce back effect but since being on the GutX we have not had that issue. Plus, with new grass coming in I have not had any issues with them being gassy or having loose stool like I sometimes do this time of year.
I’ve used the SmartGut Ultra before but did not notice this type of success with it.
I do agree with the other posters that you should up your horse’s hay intake.