Horsenut, we had a similiar situation to yours. Our seven year old golden retriever was diagonsed with bone cancer. Our vet who is wonderful and has been our vet for fifteen+ years was very good about the whole thing. He laid out our options: chemo, surgery, euthanaise. He also told us what he thought was best. Unfortuantely the cancer was spreading very fast. We didn’t want to put him through chemo, was afraid amputating his leg would both be unsuccessful and make him unhappy. We have several large dogs who love to play and he was so upset not being able to run around with them. We choose to take him home let him live as long as he was happy and put him down. He lived for several months, when he stopped eating, barely wagged his tail we put him down. It was hard, but the best for him.
Also when our pony colicked our vet and the vet school were really good. He was 19 and also had a pituatary tumor. They vets told us he only had a 25 percent chance of surivival with surgery. They were giving him painkillers every twenty minutes. If they had given him a higher chance of survival we would have never questioned the surgery; but they felt it would really be too rough on him. So we had him put down; it was like losing my best friend, but I am glad we had the option of putting him out of his misery. My vets(large and small) are all very good in that they understand we know our animals best and know when it is their time to go and when we need to keep trying.
The purchase price of a dog (or a horse etc…) has nothing to do with it! Veterinary technology has advanced incredibly in the past few years, now they can do more. Just as with humans sometimes these expensive and traumatic procedures will not prolong life appreciably and cause undue pain. Just because we can keep a brain dead human alive on a respirator with tube feedings for 20 years doesn’t mean we should. Thankfully with our animals we have the option of humane euthanasia. But there are other times when an animals life can be saved and they can go on to live a fulfilling life. This is where a wise and understanding vet becomes invaluable. But it is and should be your decision.
ex.
Cancer treatments for dogs have greatly advanced. Many people equate chemo for dogs with their own human experience, but dogs actually tolerate chemo much better than humans. Many make excellent recoveries and go on to live for years, good years too.
I am so attached to my Labrador that if something were to happen to him and I honestly felt that he had a good chance of recovery I would do whatever I could financially (I also have pet insurance so that my decision would not have to be based on my ability to afford it, only on his well being.) If I ever get another horse you better believe I’ll have medical insurance on him too.
As far as being told I had to cough up $1,000 for exporatory surgery… I think that would make me gag. I would want to know what she is going to explore, look for, what she suspects, and what she will do if she finds it. I’d think that there are other tests that could be done first to narrow the possibilities. It would also depend on the age of your terrier Kryswin. If my dog were in the prime of his life I’d be more inclined to treat him aggressively than if he were older.
As far as not euthanizing animals in her care who require heartworm treatment (this treatment is now much better and less expensive) this vet should put her money where her mouth is and refuse to treat canine patients who are not on heartworm prevention.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wileycoyote:
They are out there and they would appreciate knowing that you appreciate them.
My vet is Dr. John Stott of Lothian, MD and he is the BEST and believe me, I appreciate him every day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, your post brought tears into my eyes and reminded me of the James Herriot books. I do appreciate my vets as they are also my friends, are a married couple and always have let the decision been ours.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PamM:
I am surprised that, on a horse list, the issue of insurance and giving the final say on euthanasia over to the insurance adjuster, has not come up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
PamM - This had occurred to me as well! I do not carry insurance on my horses as I want to be the one to make the decision. You cannot carry medical without mortality and personally, I don’t want the insurance company to decide when my horse should be euthanized. I also don’t consider my horse like a car where I need to get money back on a loss and I don’t carry mortality. Thanks for bringing it up.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog:
Oops! I guess I didn’t make myself clear on that… It’s not really the monitary amount that was initially spent on the animal, I was thinking in terms of my OWN financial situation right now! I guess it is hard to explain what I meant…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
devildog - I’ll assume that was a slip of the pen.
Pat
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EquiMom:
[B]owner: acknowledged individual(s) in possession of, and responsible for, all situations arising from said proprietary designation.
caregiver: individual providing specified maintenance duties through employment as such, or in a voluntary capacity.
Question for PC Vet: If the person to whom you submit a “fee-for-services” doesn’t pay up—which of the above do you think can be legally bound for payment? 
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, that came up when the Dr & I were discussing the changeover to “Caregiver”. She admitted that it’s the OWNER who is responsible for payments. Darn, now I wish I’d said I was a Caregiver! 
Spider is still status quo. He got into some trash, maybe ate chicken bones, on Sunday along w/ 3 others. You should’ve seen them RUN to their crates when I found the trash strewn all over. The priceless look of “It wasn’t me in the garbage! Huh? Why I’m sure I have no idea how this piece of trash bag got stuck between my teeth!”
He hasn’t passed any poop in 4 days, but again tonight had an appetite. I’m treating w/ subcutaneous fluids, penicillan, and light massage. He’s vomiting vile brown fluid sporadically but seems to be in no pain except right before he tosses his cookies, and then he just looks preoccupied.
Kryswyn, I’m so sorry to hear about Spider.
You’re right about the wheel coming round again…dogs are with us for such a heartbreakingly short period of time, but I think this is their way of ensuring that we love, and are loved by, as many dogs as possible in our lifetime.
I’m glad that the new puppies arrived at a time when you needed some comforting…I’m sure that was their plan. 
If you can’t pry this vet off the tree he/she is hugging: GET A NEW VET!
This incident really disturbs me. I of course agree with all who have said get another vet. It sounds as though this owner/caregiver thing and attempting to require treatment is a good idea run amok. There are animal owners who will not pay for anything beyond the most basic of care, say shots, and if anything more is required tell the vet to put the animal down. We’ve gotten horses at the rescue for that reason - because the owner refused to pay for minimal care and the vet couldn’t bring himself to put down a perfectly viable animal.
I have had brushes with vets where a slight change in the law would leave me totally screwed:
#1 - A cat with hyperthyroidism, age 14. She’d been on medication for over a year, with a gradually increasing dose needed. She had a sudden change, vet upped the dosage which brought the monthly tab to $60, and it was clear that the cat was on a track requiring greater and greater doses in short order. The vet and I discussed my options and the fact that there is no place to get hyperthyroid medication any cheaper than I was already getting it. I was also supporting 3 other cats, 1 dog and 1 horse. I had the cat put down. I can’t say my vet was totally thrilled about it but he very much understood.
#2 - My horse colicked, had surgery and a week’s worth of intensive treatment, and re-colicked at the vet hospital, twisting. Vet hospital wanted to go back in. I said no, that I wouldn’t put him through any more as it had already been a hell of a week. I said my farewells and did what I thought was best for my horse (actually technically Days End’s horse) in that situation. And $6K plus of surgery and care was more than Days End would/could have done for him. I was appalled to get a necropsy report from the vet hospital several weeks later which essentially indicated that the horse died “because owner wouldn’t pay for more surgery.”
In both of these situations I did what I thought was right for the animal. I feel a little guilt about the cat because there was a financial aspect to it, and none about the horse because it was the right thing to do, however much it hurt me to do it. But in either of these cases where would I be if required to provide treatment I thought inappropriate or unadvisable?
Is this owner/caregiver distinction the tip of the iceberg in the A/R movement to take ownership of animals away? To what end? I don’t see this making a difference to any abused and/or neglected animal. 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:
[B]I can guarantee you that if my dog were ever to bite someone, the legal system won’t give a hoot about whether they serve the “owner” or the “caregiver” the legal papers when I get taken to court.
So why should your vet get to make that distinction?
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right on! That vet is taking on more authority than he/she earned in school. If your doctor handed you something like that you would have every right to go elsewhere for treatment and advice.
Let that vet go donate time at the local shelter to practice what they preach
I didn’t mean it quite so literally, it’s hard to explain what I meant, really guys, I am not so cold and heartless! It’s just, I guess I know that my dog is going to die, and I feel that $1,000 is really steep for something like exploratory surgery. I mean, so you spend that money and find out that you will have to spend WAY more than that on treatments, or you find out that he has something so advanced that it’s too late anyway.
My fiance and I are just starting out, we need to save all the money we can, and even with payments, that would put us in a rougher place. Please don’t think I am mean and heartless, trust me, all my animals are happy and healthy, and current on everything that they need on care.
My dog is healthy and puppy like at 13 years of age, and still rips my mom’s arm off when taking him for a walk. (He’a not a big dog either, just really strong) He still runs around the house at mach speeds, even though he is a little arthritic, but I think him being active really helps that out alot. People are shocked when they find out how old he is!
last Feb, I took him out to a state park down the street from my house, and we went about 6 miles, he was running all over, and he was fine when we got home and I tore cartilage under my kneecap! So I would say he was one darn healthy 13 year old dog! And I really do love him, I do!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HATTIE:
[B]Hey - go easy on Devildog20. She’s been posting here for a long time and certainly does love her animals. Sometimes things sound differently when we write them.
An interesting observation that I have made whenever I take my horses down to UF vet school - is that most of the large animal vet students have never been around horses until college. I’ve always wondered how in the world you learn everything about horses during your 4-6 years in specializing in them. I have had students that don’t even know how to jog a horse and are even intimidated by them. That’s not to say they won’t be good vets…[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you HATTIE!
If my animal (horse or dog or whatever) was younger, and there was a defininate chance of full recovery, you bet I would do whatever there was to do. However, if it was say, my 33 year old Arab mare if I still owned her, and she colicked bad enough to have to undergo surgery, I would have to put her down. At that age, there is such a high risk, and I couldn’t afford to take care of her if she survived having to pay off high vet bills as well. And trying to find a home for her? Impossible in this area to place a lawn ornimant. Trust me, if I had the money to do such things, I wouldn’t think twice about it. But my family comes first. I would hate to strap my fiance and I and have to move back in with my parents after we are married (I still live at home now, I am talking in the future.) My parents wouldn’t have it.
I once knew of a lady who had a beautiful show horse, schooling 4th level dressage he was fat and happy and had everything he needed. Expensive shoeing, chiropractor every other month, supplements galore, you name it, he had it. Her family? They lived in a single wide trailer with two bedrooms, there were two boys and a girl. The trailer was not fit to live in and was condemned. Her children wore old clothing, had holes in their shoes and the whole family ate potatoes for every meal because they could not afford to buy groceries. Is that fair?
Then the horse developed a foot problem. She took the horse to a vet school and they fixed it. Then they got him home and his foot fell off. All that money they spent, and the horse was put down anyway. And all the while, her family suffered.
I do not ever want to put my family in that situation, I feel that my family, even though it is just my fiance and I right now, should come first. I want to be able to save up money, so that someday when I DO have children, I will be able to give them the best of everything and my animals the best of everything. with the job my BF just got, he will be making really good money by the time we get married, then we want to buy a house back East (SC or VA!!!) and be able to have a good comfortable life. That is where I am coming from, and I hope this gives you a little more insight!
I’m so sorry to hear about Spider’s sad news. I was hoping no news was good news.
The new pups will definitely help.
To RubysMom, I’m so sorry to hear about your long-ago loss. You loved your sweet old dog and tried to do the best for her. Don’t feel guilty.
In my, uh, rage, when I first read Kryswyn’s post, I responded before reading all of the other posts & I missed yours about your dog. It is a perfect illustration of the suffering we will see in the future if this caregiver nonsense takes hold. San Francisco and Boulder already have struck the word ‘owner’ from the books, I hear.
I’ll put a slighhtly different perspective on this.
I don’t think the VET should be forced to put down an animsl that the vet thinks is treatable. For instance, someone brought in a (registered, pure bred, of the breed that the vet and his wife breed) to be put down because-
a) the dog had a food allergy and needed to be on a special diet
b) the dog had broken a bone in its foot, and, for about a month, couldn’t go up and down stairs.
In this case the vet took the dog himself, and then adopted it out to a new home. But that is not always an option.
I think the vet should be able to say “I am not willing to put this animal down. If you want to do that, you will have to find another vet.”
And the owner should be free to switch to another vet for all their work if that is what they want.
As an owner, I think it is important to find a vet whose opinion about how much is “enough” and how much is “too much” is at least in the same ballpark as mine. A mismatch either way causes too much heartache.
Well, I wasn’t going to add to this thread because you’re all doing so well, but you’ve raised some issues that I should respond to.
-
I use this vet only as a last resort on days when I’m home (my “real vets” are in the town where I work) for many of the reasons you describe.
-
Re: taking in animals and treating them herself… 2 years ago a 6 mos old show pup got kicked and broke her humeris (sp). Options? Repair $1,300 or euthanize. I wanted to repair, but asked if I could make payments. Yes, but I had to have 1/2 up front. She asked 'can’t you borrow from your family? Hey my family thinks I’m crazy have more than 2 dogs, TYVM. Ended up sending me to a specialist who would take payments (although my boss came through and advanced me the $$) At the check up, the vet told me, “I’m glad you were able to come up with the money. The pup is so nice, if you’d decided to euthanize, I would’ve taken her and had her repaired myself.” EXCUSE ME??? All I had to do was give up the dog, and she would’ve fixed Madison herself??
-
To be fair, she does work A LOT for our local shelter. In fact yesterday was her low-cost spay neuter day for the county.
-
Yes, I agree, she should not put down a viable animal due to diet, divorce, change in interior design (don’t laugh, it’s true). But here in sleepy Madison County, the meds necessary to keep an arthritic dog climbing stairs will pay your electric bill for a month or more. We are not a county w/ a high income rate.
-
I did have a clue something had changed in her practice when one of the waiting room handouts contained an address for “Adopt a Turkey” and how to send money so someone could go to a cattle auction, buy a calf, and give it “safe haven” for the rest of it’s life. If the mentality behind this “rescue” of food animals wasn’t so scary, it would be laughable.
Thanks for your good wishes for Spider, he’s showing interest in food tonight, let’s hope he can keep it down and push out the trash he ate last Sunday. Gotta go pump him full of fluid and penicillan. See ya. I’ll keep you posted.
Hey - go easy on Devildog20. She’s been posting here for a long time and certainly does love her animals. Sometimes things sound differently when we write them.
An interesting observation that I have made whenever I take my horses down to UF vet school - is that most of the large animal vet students have never been around horses until college. I’ve always wondered how in the world you learn everything about horses during your 4-6 years in specializing in them. I have had students that don’t even know how to jog a horse and are even intimidated by them. That’s not to say they won’t be good vets…
When a beloved pet needs to be put down due to illness or old-age, one option to look into is a well-run, reputable animal shelter. (Not all will fall into that category, unfortunately.) I spent 6 years doing volunteer work for an extremely good shelter (their adoption rate is over 90%). The shelter’s vet techs are more experienced with euthanasia than many vets or techs at vet clinics.
The entire staff treated both the person and the pet with the utmost respect and compassion, opening up early on appointment to allow some privacy. Some local vets refer their clients to the shelter for that service specifically. I don’t believe they charged for the service, although donations were always welcome.
Although it’s very hard to think about, it’s better to research these options before you need it, giving you time to decide what will be best for you and your pet.
Kryswyn - I’m so sorry about your dog 
My thoughts are with you and him.
Reading this thread has been pretty heavy and emotional for me - I’ve never had to make the decision to put an animal down - I pray when it’s time for my beloved gelding to cross the Rainbow Bridge (which, will not, I hope, be for many years yet) that I will be listening well enough to hear him when he tells me it’s time, and then to have the strength to let him go.
[This message has been edited by Regalmeans (edited 11-19-2000).]
This situation is so frightening it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. If presented with a situation like this, I would strike through “caregiver” and write “owner” above it. If the vet refused treatment because of this, I would find a new vet (I would do this anyway on principle).
I strongly believe the only way to register my disagreement with their position is to hit them where it hurts (in the pocketbook). I heartily resent someone who doesn’t even know me telling me how to treat my dogs. My dogs (4 JRs) probably get better treatment than most people’s children and I don’t need a vet (or some other outside party) telling me what I can (must) and can’t (must not) do in terms of treatment. I suppose if the dog needed to go on life support, they would do that instead of euthanasia (on my nickel???).
I really am fed up with other people (the bleeding heart A/Rs who don’t believe in the concept of “pets” anyway - remember, they advocate a “petless, meatless society”) trying to run my life and trying to save me from myself, as it were.
(P.S. Wonder what this vet would think if one of their “patients” “filed suit” through his or her “caregiver” on the grounds of improper/inadequate treatment? Interesting concept!)
We had a sweet kitty named Tubby. He got the Feline Leukemia and wasted away before our eyes. He died while we were out. A trail of nasty fluids lead to his little wasted body. I wish we would have put him to sleep. He could have died peacefully in our arms instead of suffering alone and scared.
Animals aren’t people. People don’t have to die alone when they have been suffering…they die in a hospital or a hospice.
It must be heartbreaking to make the decision to put an animal to sleep… I recently sat in an animal ER with my silly BooBoo suffering from a cut on his armpit…next to me was a couple, heartbroken with the thought that the time had come to put their dog to sleep. They knew he was suffering. They held him and cried. The dog was miserable and in pain.
I think we will continue to face dilemas as technology increases. That is one of the reasons I have trouble deciding to buy a horse or not. If you have the money, you can treat almost anything (…same with people!). I’d feel awful not to be able afford colic surgery. A friend’s dog was hit by a car. The dog was saved for $3500.00! It will likely have arthritis. The owner has had to change plans for his near future. (He is a hippie with a penchant for travel!)
It comes down to having to put a price on our friend’s life…which is priceless…It used to be there was no colic surgery for horses. Colic gets too bad, horse dies. Now, well, you could get surgery (for the cost of a new horse!).
This whole topic makes me sad. I hope my kitties live forever! My heart always skips a beat when they don’t come to the door immediatley. Even the little peer!
As for owner vs caregiver… what is the difference. You can have bad caregivers and wonderful owners. Whatever. Maybe HSUS and PETA ought to use some of their energy to actually save animals instead of annoying the owners.
Kryswyn: This vet is spiraling into nutdum. I am appalled that when you had a pup, with a broken humerus she would not accept payments! The doc you went to probably did a better job anyway, screw her, and screw her for her nasty comment that she would have adopted the dog herself and done the surgery if you had elected to euthanize the dog!!! I would have written her off my list and never gone back.
I wouldn’t ever go back to her again. And this business about saving the cows… well, cows are wonderful creatures but they have been bred and developed for food and milk. Can’t survive in the wild, and they sure aren’t pets…
What is wrong with your terrier? Ate something bad? Is he eating? Any appetite? Has he passed a stool? Urinating? Good pink gums? Temp? Anything weird when you palpate his belly? Whats Up with him?
