owner: acknowledged individual(s) in possession of, and responsible for, all situations arising from said proprietary designation.
caregiver: individual providing specified maintenance duties through employment as such, or in a voluntary capacity.
Question for PC Vet: If the person to whom you submit a “fee-for-services” doesn’t pay up—which of the above do you think can be legally bound for payment? 
I’m at work on my lunch break and only read the 1st page of this post so far. I have heard before that this is a trend in small animal private practice and it really scares me. What is going to happen to that poor animal if the owner can not afford to treat it? What if they dropped it off in the woods somewhere to die, or just stopped feeding it or tried to euthanize it on their own with carbon mon-oxide or a gun. Veterinarians take an oath that says first do no harm. Sometimes the treatments are worse than the disease. I’m so glad that we as owners or caregivers, I don’t care what you call us- we are the ones RESPONSIBLE for our animals- that we can make the choice to end their suffering and allow them to die with dignity in our loving arms and not have to suffer through a painful death. I find this vet’s response totally unacceptable.
And Songbird you hit the nail on the head re: animal rights v.s. animal welfare.
Hope to have time to finish reading the rest of the posts later.
I had to take an under-the-weather terrier to the vet’s today and leave him while I went to an appointment. I was given the “Patient Drop-off” Form and almost failed the first question, which was:
Caregiver’s Name _______________
I wondered why they had a special form for pet-sitters to use when it dawned on me that they were using the word ‘caregiver’ in place of ‘owner’.
HSUS, PETA and other animal rights orgs are pushing for “caregiver” over “owner” because ‘caregivers’ can be held to different standards of care than owners. Sort of “what a reasonable person would do” vs “it’s my property to do with what I wish”
The vet also informed me she would no longer euthanize for “treatable” conditions, ie. a pet has arthritis and owner cannot afford/ chooses not subject pet to mega medications for years; or a dog has heartworm and owner chooses euthanaisia over treatment to try to cure it (many dogs die while treating for advanced heartworm).
Fortunately, I’m able to treat my dog at home (which she’s supporting by sending home meds) and it’s unclear if Spider’s condition is life-threatening. I say fortunately, because she flat out told me I’d have to take my dog elsewhere to put down if I couldn’t/wouldn’t go $1000 for exploratory! surgery. (sorry can’t do that).
Your opinions please on “owner” vs “caregiver” and the issue of standard each may be held to. 
Please no opinions on whether I should go for the surgery regardless of cost.
Well, what an, um, interesting idea.
If by interesting you mean ludicrous.
Owner vs. caregiver? Well, I consider myslef both. And, legally speaking (as I’ve learned while trying to insure some of my animals) I am both as well. I “own” my Doberman, my cat, and two of my horses–because I either paid money for them and have papers, or bred them and have papers, or adopted them and have certificate of ownership. I don’t legally “own” my lab, my JRT/beagle mix, and my other two horses, because I paid nothing to acquire them and have no papers to prove ownership. Do I love and care for one set less than the other–PUH-LEAZE!
The notion that semantics guides whether or not my animals recieve th proper love and care is dreadful and sickening to me. It defies logic.
I too was once the victim of these sorts of veterinary pressure tactics. I had a sweet little barn kitty a friend had given me when I first moved to VA. At about 1 year of age, I came home to find him lying in the aisle, half comotase and stuggling for breath. He was paralyzed and could not control his bladder or bowels. My immediate thought was poisening. I took him to vet, and they immediatly wanted to open him up, blah, blah. Well, I was poor and a student, so I said, stabilize him, run a blood test, tell me what you find. They told me I was killing him. I told them he was already half-dead. I had a final that afternoon. Every 20 minutes I ran out of my final to call and find out what was happening. N one would tell me anything or come to the phone. Finally, I got someone on the phone–"Oh, it died about an hour ago.’ I started to cry, and asked if they had any ideas what had killed him. “Well, you were too cheap to let us operate, so I doubt you’re willing to spring for an autopsy. What killed him? You, probably”
Oh, and I got a bill for $350 dollars a few days later. I told them where they could stick it.
It was incredibly relieving many years later when one of my husbands extremely geriatirc cats got cancer, and the vets were extremely supportive of our decision to not pursue treatment–why make his final months miserable? He was AT LEAST 19, and this wasn’t his first health problem. So, we kept him until he was unhappy, and then we let him go. Hard, yes. But so much easier with the proper support.
So my advice–get a new vet!
You posted “Maybe HSUS and PETA ought to use some of their energy to actually save animals instead of annoying the owners.”
I couldn’t agree with you more but that is the main difference between the Animal RIGHTS movement and people who are interested in Animal WELFARE. They are not one and the same.
The animal rights people believe that animals should have rights just as do people - they are not interested in bettering the welfare of those same animals. They do not believe that animals should be eaten, kept as pets nor used (i.e. horses) to further any human endeavor.
Please be sure you know the difference before you donate to a group like HSUS which has no interest in animal WELFARE.
Oops! I guess I didn’t make myself clear on that… It’s not really the monitary amount that was initially spent on the animal, I was thinking in terms of my OWN financial situation right now! I guess it is hard to explain what I meant…
I consider myself owner of my horse, because legally, he is in my name. As for caregiver, I am only one half. The other half is my coach and those who work at the barn I board at. The ones who feed, turnout, clean stalls, wrap him when he bangs himself in turnout and I can’t get out, etc.
I am currently doing my co-op at the University of Guelph vet clinic, and I plan on applying to the program once I am out of high school. I own a cat, a dog, and a horse…and I can’t imagine wanting to be a vet if I didn’t have pets, or at least a love for animals. I want to specialize in horses because, lets face it, horses are the most graceful, beautiful, sweet, and loving animals in the world, and I want to help keep them healthy and happy. Most of the vet students I work with seem to feel the same way about animals. But there are some who really seem to be in it for the money- which disturbs me.
Last year, my dog was hit by a car. We took her to an urgenmt care clinic, where she stayed for the night because our vet clinic doesn’t have an on-call who could see her right away. Shocking? Yes! When she did manage to get in there the next morning, they found she had a broken leg and needed surgery. My parents agreed immediately. Never mind that we were on a payment plan for 4 months, it had to be done. She was shaky at first, and wore a cast and a neck cone for 3 months, but she can run without a limp now. I can’t imagine having her put down, but I realize that not everyone is in the situation that we were. If I was a student and my parents couldn’t have payed for it, I probably would’ve had to put her down. Devildog, I understand completely what you were trying to say.
As for horse insurance, my horse is insured because I don’t want to have to turn down colic surgery if there is a good chance he would recover. But I also have insurance because we couldn’t put out the money for a new horse if we had to put mine down. Financial restraints can be a big issue in the treatment of your animals, but so can your emotions. If your vet tells you he WON’T put down an animal that HE (or she) feels can be saved, leave. Even if you can afford it, you may not want to save them if that would mean a life in pain. The ultimate decision should be yours.
songbird, maybe I misunderstood, but when you said don’t donate to HSUS because of their animal rights views, were you implying that PETA is animal welfare? Because they are the ringleaders in this animal rights nightmare…
Oh boy this could really be a touchy feely kind of question, couldn’t it?
I have to say I consider myself an owner. While I spoil everything I “own” to the extreme, I do find that I would have the final word regarding their care.
One of the decent things I have always thought about the animal/pet kingdom is that we have the choice to minimize the suffering or ordeal our pets become involved in.
I have had to put down a very old Springer that was the love of my life. It took me 10 yrs to even be able to talk about it. I went at least 6 mos beoynd the dogs comfortable life as it was. It was a harder decision and more traumatic than my divorce had been.
I also purchased the sweetest 9 yr old TB gelding off the track. What a wonderful guy he was going to be. 6 mos later after a terrible bout with colic, he just never came back. My local vet said I needed to take him to a better clinic to have his heart checked. Low and behold he had a bad heart valve. That vet sent me home “treating” him with Lasix 2x a day and Digoxin. After 4 days, I was so depressed seeing this “old man” shuffling around his stall. I thought for God sake what am I doing!!! Give this horse some dignity. This is not a condition that is going to heal itself. He will never ever get better. He is a gelding for God sake. Do what is just, and decent, have him put down.
I could not disagree with your vet more about treating animals for their conditions. How many people do you know that have exhausted their emotions and finances because they did not have this humane and decent respectful choice for humans? Let’s not take that away from the animal/pet kingdom.
Many of my friends say that if they were to come back in another life, they want to be one of my pets. I take that as a compliment!
On the lighter side of “ownership” of pets.
I have had both cats and dogs. Have one of each now. I love both species. I thought this was the cutest perspective on the difference between them.
If you call a dog, he comes running to you.
If you call a cat, he says take a number, I’ll have to get back to you. 
[This message has been edited by Cactuskate (edited 11-03-2000).]
We live with 3 horses, 3 dogs, 4 cats and a lame goose that I hope to release as soon as hunting season is over as he is not happy living in the barn. I have never felt comfortable using the term “owner”. My husband calls himself the facilitator and I use the horrible term mother. I have sold a few horses, and I hope I am never in the situation where I have to sell any others (one never knows though) because when I sold the 6 horses I did, the ever present umbilical cord was still attached. This is when I realized I was not an owner, but a relative of the group that lives in my house, responsible for their health and happiness. I believe in euthanization, if that is the best choice or only choice. I believe in Dr. Kevorkian…
I would find a new vet, but not because of the owner statement, I hope I don’t have to suffer and I hope my extended family doesn’t have to suffer.
I do not belong to HSUS or PETA.
Hey - I am voting for Gore (but wish that Nader had a chance)
Pat
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog20:
Oops! I guess I didn’t make myself clear on that… It’s not really the monitary amount that was initially spent on the animal, I was thinking in terms of my OWN financial situation right now! I guess it is hard to explain what I meant…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>\
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder, would the vet want to take in everything that is treatable and pay for everything and do it all herself? That is rediculous! I can’t see spending $1000 on a dog I spent less than half of that on 13 years ago!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>\
The above is what you said!
It did sound bad Devil Dog. Just like a horse, the amount you spend to purchase a dog may be large or small but you will be spending so much more in the long run (if you properly feed, care, and train the animal), that original purchase price doesn’t mean much (unless you’ve got a horse that you paid 750,000 for and then you’ll have lots of pricey expenses for that too.!)
Investments aren’t just about dollars and cents. You bought a dog for less than half of $1000 13 years ago. Okay, lets say you paid $400 for him. Feeding probably cost you average of $25 a month, if you were doing all the vet stuff (vacinations, heartworm, Frontline, teath cleaning) barring main procedures $300 a year.
25X12,X 13=$3,600 food
200X13 = 3,900 basic vet care
That’s $7,500.00 over the course of 13 years. A conserative estimate, assuming that you have a healthy dog. No dollar figure on loving the dog.
Most good vets will do payment plans for major procedures. I encourage everyone to check out pet health insurance. If you get it when the dog is a puppy it’s very reasonable, even later it’s still not bad, but with a puppy you won’t have pre-existings. You have to check out the different things they cover and which vets in your area will work with them but it’s such a good thing for major stuff.
The BIG thing is the love and caring that you have for your animal, and I guess that is what disturbed me the most about your post. We are forced to put a dollar amount on our animals when we buy them, but after they become part of our lives and our family, to me they are priceless. If someone offered me a million dollars for my beautiful Black Labrador “Fred” tomorrow I would thank them for the compliment and not even consider the offer. I am not a wealthy girl but Fred makes me feel rich. He has given me so much more than I will ever be able to return.
If you had a horse that you’d bought for $1,000 who turned out to be your dream horse, you rode and showed with best of them, or simply enjoyed years of good times together… and then one day something happened and you learned that there was a procedure that could be done, but would cost $10,000 would you hesitate? Would you say that I paid only $1,000 for him ten years ago?
I don’t own a horse now because I want to a)find the right horse
b)have all my ducks in a row with insurance etc… so I never have to face the agonizing decision of “colic surgery etc…” can I afford it right now or not.
We all go through tough times financially, well most of us do, others just worry about where or when they’ll purchase their next Selle Francais,(I’m not jealous! much ), but we have to be responsible with the animals we bring under our stewardship and try to provide for them as best we can. They don’t have a choice and they depend on us.
[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 11-04-2000).]
[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 11-04-2000).]
Speaking of colic and surgery - my horse colciked the first day of Lake Placid. When he didn’t get any better, Dr’s Lowe & Steele recommended he go to a clinic where surgery could be an option. So we tool him to a lovely small clinic near Saratoga. Where they decided what was wrong and did non-invasive procedures rather than surgery. Horse spent a week there, no surgery necessary,and the entire bill (including meds, IV’s, blood workups checking for ulcers, etc, daily palpations, 2/3x’s daily temp & pulse) was less than ONE NIGHT at the local clinic here in NJ.
I have left instructions that if he colics again, he is to be driven to there.
I am afraid sometimes the almighty dollar takes precedence over the animal.
“Exploratory surgery” is a surgeon’s excuse to cut. I was once told I needed “exploratory surgery”. Had I undergone it, I would not be here writing these words to you. I’d be dead. (SoEasy was there and can verify this!) My advice is NEVER agree to exploratory surgery for yourself or your animal without first checking out all the other options!
I don’t donate to HSUS OR PETA or any other organization of their ilk. I like to put my donations where they will benefit the health and welfare of animals NOT fight for their rights as “people.”
I am “owned” by 4 very bossy JRTs - do you think I can get them to pay my medical bills?
LOL!
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