Owners of Ex Amish Horses... What Has Your Experience Been Like?

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=blondenfun;8368780]
Let me start of by saying that I’m looking for an overall honest opinion here. I just adopted a Saddlebred that is CUTE as a button, but clearly has a lot of issues. I am guessing at one point he was a show horse - he sets up in the bridle very nicely, and knows walk, trot, canter well… and loves, LOVES peppermints. All indicators (to me) that he probably was a show horse. Of course, as it seems to happen too often, he wound up on the road for ??? years pulling a buggy. Now, I realize rescues come with issues most often, but this one took me by surprise…and makes me sad…

When this guy was picked up from New Holland, he was quite stressed out. Supposedly the vet couldn’t get blood work, he kicked one of the workers at the sale, and upon walking into the stall… he pinned his ears at the lady who picked him up. He even kicked out to let her know he was all business! But never actually did anything to her. They loaded him up anyway, and as soon as he made it to his new “home,” he seemed to be relieved and relaxed a lot.

I have adopted him from a rescue about 6-7 months after them having him. I made a large mistake two weeks into having him, and tried to have a vet come out and sedate him to do teeth and chiropractic work (if he allowed it). Ha! Well, to summarize, he immediately gave us flat ears, nipped at me, started swishing his tail, showing teeth, etc. Stomping his feet, you name it. He saw the needle coming at him when the vet was just going to pet him first, and he got defensive. He actually more or less got aggressive. I think very fear related. We went around for 20 minutes not being able to get it in the vein (for fear of getting seriously hurt). We finally managed to get it in the muscle, after feeling like we were both going to get seriously injured because he put up a good fight. At one point, his front left leg came up and was pawing in the air. Quite traumatizing for me - I’ve NEVER had a mean bone in a horse I’ve owned. I ended up telling the vet not to do anything. He was even pinning ears after sedation, HEAVY sedation, and somehow had enough energy to crank his head back at me with flat ears as I walked into the stall after we had given the sedation material time to set in. (solid 30 minutes or more).

Of course, I am strongly considering not keeping this guy, and basically have a couple days to decide. Another farm might try him out with their lesson program (he’s had kids ride him and show him while at the previous rescue, surprisingly). I fear even simple tasks with this guy, and there has been a lot of ear pinning since I’ve had him… although! This has gotten MUCH better. I hardly have any, anymore as I believe he is starting to trust me.

What would be your suggestions here? I know this can be dangerous if the right person doesn’t know how to handle a horse like this. Has anyone else had an ex Amish horse like this? I truly feel like this guy was probably not treated well somewhere along the line, and maybe this is why he ended up almost going to kill. I can tell he wants to be a sweet horse, but he does some things sometimes that make me nervous. I struggle to wonder what will happen when he REALLY needs veterinary care, or even having the farrier come. That needs to be done, I dread that will cause a freak out session. As a side note, the rescue was able to give shots on their own with no problem, and never mentioned a problem with the farrier.

Thoughts? Experiences? I am all ears![/QUOTE]

My suggestion is that you are not the right person to own this horse. You (and apparently even your vet) do not have the skill set to manage and rehabilitate his problems. I would waste no time in returning him to the rescue you got him from, where hopefully they will allow you to make a different choice.

There are simple, effective, and safe ways of approaching, restraining, and sedating a horse who is self-defensive. Frankly, the idea that any competent vet couldn’t get that done seriously strains credulity, as does the idea that a combination dentist and chiro practitioner is even a “thing.” The idea that you would pass a horse too dangerous for YOU and your “vet” to handle on to a “lesson program” makes my troll meter go off, frankly. Yeah, send him to a barn full of little beginner kids. . . . that’s just the ticket! :rolleyes:

Obviously he was getting necessary vet and farrier care done at the rescue without difficulties, to the point where they considered the horse ready to be sold on to a private, amateur owner. Who is NOT YOU, OP, since you find a horse raising a left front leg “traumatic.” Turn this one back in, before your trauma becomes literal.

[Nootka]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8369511]
My suggestion is that you are not the right person to own this horse. You (and apparently even your vet) do not have the skill set to manage and rehabilitate his problems. I would waste no time in returning him to the rescue you got him from, where hopefully they will allow you to make a different choice.

There are simple, effective, and safe ways of approaching, restraining, and sedating a horse who is self-defensive. Frankly, the idea that any competent vet couldn’t get that done seriously strains credulity, as does the idea that a combination dentist and chiro practitioner is even a “thing.” The idea that you would pass a horse too dangerous for YOU and your “vet” to handle on to a “lesson program” makes my troll meter go off, frankly. Yeah, send him to a barn full of little beginner kids. . . . that’s just the ticket! :rolleyes:

Obviously he was getting necessary vet and farrier care done at the rescue without difficulties, to the point where they considered the horse ready to be sold on to a private, amateur owner. Who is NOT YOU, OP, since you find a horse raising a left front leg “traumatic.” Turn this one back in, before your trauma becomes literal.[/QUOTE]

THIS 100%%^^^^^

[rb5007]

I have gotten many horses and mules from the Amish, both through New Holland and privately. Mostly drafts but some Standardbreds and mutts. It really depends on the place they were at and the temperament of the animal. Remember that they are generally treated like machines/vehicles (at best) and I would think that could be pretty traumatic for a formerly pampered show horse. In some cases, it has literally taken months of cookies and attempted cuddling to get them to open up and come out of their shells. The mules are generally extremely skeptical but all of a sudden one day they just trust you and become love bugs. Some of the drafts who knew better days turn around almost over night and are just so grateful to be treated well. However, we had one standardbred who sounds a lot like your horse - when we got him, he snarled and spun if you tried to go near him. We didn’t need to do anything with him right away so spent a solid month just feeding him cookies and getting him to allow us to touch him without putting ANY pressure on him of any kind. And I mean literally NO pressure - I would go the the stall door or paddock gate with cookies - if he wanted to come over, great and if he didn’t that was fine, he stayed where he was. Eventually he stopped being agressive and there was a great trail horse under all that fear. If you have the time and ability to completely back off for a bit, I personally would see if a few weeks of kindness will make a difference.

[Whoanellie]

Time & Patience…as stated previously. TIER rescued a saddlebred in 2009 and it took A LONG TIME for him to have trust in me. Once he trusted me he was a bit better for farrier, dentist, vet. The chiropractor tried to adjust him every time he came out and it took even longer for that one.

It seems it took forever for this poor horse to give himself permission to have a personality that wasn’t totally reactionary, loss of focus, etc. Once I had gained his trust he slowly became the wonderful saddlebred. They are smart, smart, smart. Personable and very loving. If they trust you, it is with all their heart. But, to get there takes a lot of steps backwards and awesome baby steps forward. He has taught me a lot about me and I am grateful to learn some about him.

[blondenfun]

Well, before you and a few others who like to make sarcastic comments as if this is my problem that the horse is acting the way he is…

If you read the story of the horse, you would know at the sale he also was aggressive. I believe I mentioned that in the post. He kicked at someone in the kill pen, and the vet there was unable to get the blood drawn also. The rescue never had a problem with getting shots because they gave them to him on their own. So I imagine it was a trust issue. I don’t know for certain.

If you have a horse coming AT you when you’re trying to do veterinary work, being aggressive, and feel it’s dangerous to the point that someone is going to get injured, you usually pull away. This is not a credibility issue with the vet at all. She actually is a very good vet, and comes with high recommendation. There is such thing as a vet & chiro combo, sorry you can’t seem to get past that! She also did a wonderful job being patient, taking her time, etc. He actually freaked out when she simply went up to pet him, she didn’t even have the needle in yet, nor was she going at him with it.

The rescue is the one who suggested to send him over to a local farm that is familiar with the breed and see if he would work in their lesson program. I’m going to by what the rescue is suggesting. And if he doesn’t work for the farm, he will be trailered back to a show in three weeks to meet back with the rescue. Again, I’m doing exactly what the rescue has suggested. And I had NO clue the horse was going to lash out the way he did, or I would have figured out a different route to take.

For those of you who feel I’m inexperienced in what I’m doing, I’ve shown arabs and NSH’s pretty much my whole life. I’d consider myself pretty knowledgeable. So thanks for all the sarcastic remarks, I think there is a better way of conveying your opinions… but I do appreciate those of you who have been respectful and helpful! Thank you!

[blondenfun]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8369511]
My suggestion is that you are not the right person to own this horse. You (and apparently even your vet) do not have the skill set to manage and rehabilitate his problems. I would waste no time in returning him to the rescue you got him from, where hopefully they will allow you to make a different choice.

There are simple, effective, and safe ways of approaching, restraining, and sedating a horse who is self-defensive. Frankly, the idea that any competent vet couldn’t get that done seriously strains credulity, as does the idea that a combination dentist and chiro practitioner is even a “thing.” The idea that you would pass a horse too dangerous for YOU and your “vet” to handle on to a “lesson program” makes my troll meter go off, frankly. Yeah, send him to a barn full of little beginner kids. . . . that’s just the ticket! :rolleyes:

Obviously he was getting necessary vet and farrier care done at the rescue without difficulties, to the point where they considered the horse ready to be sold on to a private, amateur owner. Who is NOT YOU, OP, since you find a horse raising a left front leg “traumatic.” Turn this one back in, before your trauma becomes literal.[/QUOTE]

Well, before you and a few others who like to make sarcastic comments as if this is my problem that the horse is acting the way he is…

If you read the story of the horse, you would know at the sale he also was aggressive. I believe I mentioned that in the post. He kicked at someone in the kill pen, and the vet there was unable to get the blood drawn also. The rescue never had a problem with getting shots because they gave them to him on their own. So I imagine it was a trust issue. I don’t know for certain. It wasn’t just his leg lifting, it was more a leg lift like he might strike. There is a large difference. Also ear pinning, teeth, coming AT us (not backing away), etc. And for those of you that have asked - yes! Yes ear pinning is a deterrent in a horse (IMO). There are a lot of genuinely nice horses out there that won’t pin their ears on a consistent basis or be unpredictable when doing so. And when there is unpredictability with it, that is what makes me cringe.

If you have a horse coming AT you when you’re trying to do veterinary work, being aggressive, and feel it’s dangerous to the point that someone is going to get injured, you usually pull away. This is not a credibility issue with the vet at all. She actually is a very good vet, and comes with high recommendation. There is such thing as a vet & chiro combo, sorry you can’t seem to get past that! She also did a wonderful job being patient, taking her time, etc. He actually freaked out when she simply went up to pet him, she didn’t even have the needle in yet, nor was she going at him with it. (But he SAW the needle and knew what was coming, IMO.)

The rescue is the one who suggested to send him over to a local farm that is familiar with the breed and see if he would work in their lesson program. I’m going to by what the rescue is suggesting. And if he doesn’t work for the farm, he will be trailered back to a show in three weeks to meet back with the rescue. Again, I’m doing exactly what the rescue has suggested. And I had NO clue the horse was going to lash out the way he did, or I would have figured out a different route to take.

For those of you who feel I’m inexperienced in what I’m doing, I’ve shown arabs and NSH’s pretty much my whole life. I’d consider myself pretty knowledgeable. So thanks for all the sarcastic remarks, I think there is a better way of conveying your opinions… but I do appreciate those of you who have been respectful and helpful! Thank you!

[blujen]

I agree that it probably wasn’t just rough handling. Saddlebreds are smart, and they don’t LIKE being poked with needles for (what they see as) no reason. They’re likely to try fighting back, and if the right person isn’t there with the right correction the very first time they try it, it can get ugly. My guy has to have a lip chain on and a hand over his eye before the vet gets a needle within 12 feet of him. He’s never been mishandled or abused, but he’s no shrinking violet and he doesn’t like shots.

Nothing short of the lip chain, and an eye cover, will make him safe. He HATES shots, and he’s hated them so long and fought about them for so long that this is what it takes now. Before we gave up and started on the lip chain it was ugly, way uglier than your’e describing. Of course the more he fought, the less accurate the vet could be with the shots, which means they hurt more the more he struggled, thus proving to him that it made sense to fight.

I think you probably have a horse very much like mine, he knows it’s going to hurt and wants no part of it. Probably compounded by people who were intimidated when he acted this way. I’ll bet he can be made safe at some point, but I think I would send him back to the rescue and let THEM figure out what it takes, and then they can tell the next adopter what it’s going to take and they can decide if they are willing to do it.

[blondenfun]

Sounds a lot like my guy!! He wasn’t quite that bad, but the very first day I went out to see him, he did NOT trust me what so ever. This has gotten a LOT better. As I mentioned, the ear pinning has been getting better…

I am also guessing he wasn’t treated the greatest, but I also have to wonder if my situation was a reason why he was in the kill pen. I agree with you on giving some time.

Thanks for the kind response!

[Marla_100]

[QUOTE=blondenfun;8369611]

I am also guessing he wasn’t treated the greatest, but I also have to wonder if my situation was a reason why he was in the kill pen. I agree with you on giving some time.

Many saddlebreds are petrified of needles. You don’t allow them to see the needles, as another poster said. Covering the eye helps as does having a helper holding and feeding treats. My vet injects the needle only, first and then attaches the syringe. Also do the injections where the horse is comfortable, stall or paddock where the horse hangs out.

Put yourself in the horse’s shoes. New farm, New people, scarey shots. Nothing familiar and saddlebreds believe “Stranger= Danger”.

I think your horse needs more time to settle in, more time to bond with a caretaker and someone with patience to allow him to come out of his scarey shell.

I doubt his re-activity has anything to do with why he was in the kill pen. Some very nice saddlebreds end up there when they’ve outlived their usefulness to whoever owned them. See the nice former show horses that Saddlebred Rescue
has taken in.

Just realize this boy will take more time to settle and trust. Once they do, they will do anything in the world for you. Just time and patience.

[thatmoody]

I missed the lesson program part - thought he could go back to the rescue.

And yes, if I were a vet and the owner couldn’t restrain the horse and I was worried I would get injured because of that, I wouldn’t take on the job either. I don’t know the horse, or his intent, so I really can’t speculate on that - the worst one I ever tried to do sedative on was a feral mini and he dragged me around like a puppet lol. He was the worst one to handle I’ve ever tried (owner was an experienced horse person and I’ve heard that he’s fine now, though with rather a lot of retraining).

But not knowing the horse, all we have to go on is your words, so…

[gloriginger]

[QUOTE=blondenfun;8369593]
Well, before you and a few others who like to make sarcastic comments as if this is my problem that the horse is acting the way he is…[/QUOTE]

FWIW OP- I thought saying you didn’t have the skillset to handle the horse was pretty rude. I hope you didn’t take my response as sarcastic. I was merely saying- don’t deal with this kind of horse if you don’t have to…life is to short to deal with dinks. Fear aggressive, traumitized - what ever it is…if I had a horse do what he did with you, and knowing that he had done this with others, I would send him back. There are plently of nice horses out there that need a home, use your space, time and $ for one of those.

As an old boss of mine use to say “you don’t often see an ill-tempered draft, they are just way to big to not be good natured.”

Good luck whatever you decide.

[blondenfun]

I would agree, me saying I don’t have the skill set or basically saying I don’t know what the heck I’m doing is pretty rude… (not to toot my own horn, but my mom is actually a veterinarian. I’ve grown up around horses, showed at a regional level with Arabians/NSH’s gone on farm calls, etc. Not saying I know it all, but I feel like I have a pretty good idea of how things typically go. Side note, my mom was not the vet I used. She is 58 and close to retirement… so it was not her that the horse lashed out at.) But no, what you stated I completely get and appreciate the feedback.

[french_fry]

I leased a mare that was straight up nasty on the ground. Pinning her ears was the LEAST of it - she has kicked several people and once put a braider in the hospital.

She was a very valuable competition horse so they tolerated her quirks. By the time I got her as my rusty re-rider “show me the ropes” horse as she was stepping down, the barn/trainer/owners had figured out how to safely manage her on a consistent basis. She got to make all the nasty faces she wanted and WOULD try to bite if you didn’t carry a crop on the ground, but the dangerous kicking and striking was resolved. It was never safe to go directly into her stall - you had to wait at the entrance and halter her before leading her out.

We know this horse’s full history and trust me, there is no history of abuse. Since I stopped leasing her she has been showing a string of beginners the ropes and is totally fine. She will never be a friendly horse and she has to be managed with competent professional oversight, but in a good program she is totally fine to let a 10 year old tack her up.

All this to say that your horse’s behavior (especially the repeated mentions of ear-pinning) does not sound that unmanageable - HOWEVER, you are very clearly overhorsed here and if you don’t have a trainer and knowledgable barn manager who can get your guy in a program, you should definitely send him back to the rescue and purchase something more ammie friendly. Probably not a rescue.

[red_mares]

I have an Amish-bred saddlebred; her manner are pretty darn good. She wasn’t exactly broke, but that’s a different story. My old show mare from Chicago you sometimes needed a whip & chair to handle. You never planned on her staying tied.

My trainer has a 3 yro ASB colt in training, also Amish bred and raised, and they are ecstatic about how well mannered the horse is.

Both of these horses are much easier to clip or groom than any bred and raised by this trainer. His apparently have a “hate clipping” gene that has been passed down the line. Unless they are drugged, it’s not happening.

Another Amish guy has a ASB colt with ZERO manners. It isn’t because the colt is an ASB or Amish, it’s because he’s turned out & no one does anything with him. That can happen anywhere.

Keep in mind that that your horse may have ended up at New Holland because he was nuts to begin with. I know Ams who buy ASBs to resale to English ladies at a profit. They usually try to pick up saleable horses & flip them quick (i.e. at the sale barn). If they are selling a nice horse at New Holland, there’s a reason.

With all the kids they have running around their barns, the Amish don’t need a crazy horse anymore than anyone else does. IME, they have BETTER ground manners than those owned by ammies.

BTW OP, you have 4 posts here. We don’t “know” you. The vast number of new posters who come and ask for help dealing with their horses simply don’t have the skills to deal with the horse they just bought.

Unless your first post somehow had hidden between the lines that you’ve worked with show horse breeds, there’s no reason to get your panties in a bunch because someone suggested that you couldn’t handle the horse you asked for tips on handling.

[asb_own_me]

Ear pinning sends your danger radar into overdrive?

This horse HAS YOUR NUMBER. Big time.

I’m not surprised to hear there was an “issue” at the sale. That’s a very stressful environment, for horses and rescuers alike. A saint of a horse could react badly; that this horse kicked out and acted up at the sale means virtually nothing.

It clearly has no bearing on this discussion that your mom was a vet, and you “showed at a regional level”…you can’t handle this horse and aren’t comfortable trying. The horse has your number. Saddlebreds are incredibly smart, and given an inch they will take a mile. This guy has found a way out of something unpleasant and has taken it - with wild success! Do him a favor and get him back to the rescue.

[TequilaMockingbird]

I have no experience with Amish horses but my horse was very body defensive when I bought her.

She has never kicked out or tried to bite anyone but she did lots of posturing (swinging her butt at you, pinning ears, throwing her weight around to get away from you). I knew she hated needles, vets and anyone really messing with her because of her behavior at the PPE.

The first time I had the farrier out we had to use a lip chain. Through patience, time and having the right farrier, she is now a perfect angel. I found that having a farrier with the right mindset really makes a difference. Some farriers have a calming influence and this transfers to the horse. They feed off that energy. With the wrong farrier a defensive horse can be dangerous. With the right farrier, they can be nervous wiggle worms that take a long time to finish but no one gets hurt and the horse isn’t traumatized.

Two months after I bought my mare she had to have a new coggins pulled. They had to blindfold and twitch her and she was still rearing in the stall. At the beginning I thought it was the needle itself. By this point she had some trust in me and was getting better about me touching her all over without getting upset.

First I kept her in the cross ties and poked a sharp pen in the exact way a needle would be inserted into the vein. Once I got her nonreactive to that I did it loose in her stall while she was quietly munching hay. I even brought out some rubbing alcohol and went through the whole nine yards as if I were truly giving her an injection. She didn’t even take the time to stop chewing, that’s who disinterested she was in what I was doing.

The next time she had to have vet work done she was still pretty bad for the vet but not as bad as before. At this point I’m figuring it is the stranger cornering her that is the real trigger, the needle just really sets her off because it reinforcing the stranger danger.

The next couple vet visits I had the vet dose her with dormosedan gel before giving her vaccinations or floating her teeth. It’s quick even when they’re fighting you and there wasn’t a sharp needle flying around to make it worse. Then we used a technique where we would walk her around the barn with vet walking along side, patting her on the neck for a few minutes. Then the vet would put the needle in quick, while we’re still walking. The needle was in and out of the vet’s pocket before maresy even noticed it.

The last two times she had an injection done we didn’t even have to do the neck patting trick. Just bring her out of the stall, let her get used to the vet touching her and then they can inject her with no problems whatsoever.

If you still want to keep this horse, you’ve got to get him to trust you first. After that it’s just baby steps and using professionals who are patient and aren’t going to manhandle them. Every time they have a traumatic experience where they’re flailing and doing everything they can do get away from you, you’re just reinforcing that fear. Every time you keep every calm and do things slowly, they will be just a little easier the next time around.

I will say the thing that took the longest for her to accept was the chiropractor. I wouldn’t bother with that until you get this horse safe with other things first. It won’t be of any benefit physically to adjust a horse that is resisting or outright fighting you.

[red_mares]

I knew a gal who showed Arabs & 1/2 Arabs for years - won at local & A shows quite a bit.

When she got on another friend’s push-button, country pleasure horse, she couldn’t have ridden her out of a box car. I learned to ride on the mare. Same gal got drug through the barn by the retired 20+yro retired gaited horse because she thought she was wonderful and didn’t need to carry a whip or broom, like everyone else did.

What you did in the past doesn’t exactly matter. Right now you have a horse you can’t handle. With all of your experience, I’m surprised you didn’t just put a chain over his gums. That does wonders for their ground manners.

[Princess_Sparkles]

I don’t think the behavior described is unmanageable. I also don’t think its fair or realistic to take such enormous issue with the fact that the horse pins its ears (??) on a regular basis. Good God, if most horse people used that as a measure of a good horse, all those bitchy mares would have no where to live!

Not all horses are love bugs that are going to enjoy a human fawning all over them. Some horses, like people, are simply cranky and prefer to be left alone. Combined with an obvious fear of vets/needles, I think the situation got out of control. Though if the worst thing you have ever experienced in terms of a horse acting up is pinned ears, lunging towards you, and trying to strike, then no, I don’t think you have the experience to deal with this horse. While none of the behavior you described is acceptable or safe, I have dealt with horses who have done far, far worse to me, and it is those horses I would classify as dangerous. This one was fearful, and also sounds opinionated, and wanted none of the vet appointment.

I also think it is very irresponsible for the rescue to suggest this horse become a school horse. If you, as the OP, think the horse is not safe for you and your accomplished vet to handle, how on earth is it acceptable for the horse to go to a school situation where inexperienced riders and children will be handling the horse?

If you do not think you can handle the horse’s issues, then yes, the rescue should take it back. I suppose it is not your issue where they send the horse instead, but I would stay away from this rescue in the future. I would make damn sure the riding school is not perceiving you as giving them the horse, or you could be in for a world of hurt if the horse injures a student and they try to claim it was YOU that didn’t accurately portray the horse to them.

[blondenfun]

My panties definitely are not in a bunch. I will listen to respectful advice and give respectful feedback if it warrants it - there is no need to be rude or talk down to me because I am new to the forum.

I stated above I have shown Arabians and a National Show Horse in the past at a regional level, I also never once stated I knew it all… just that I had some pretty good experience with horses.

[blondenfun]

Thanks for the helpful advice. Sounds like you’ve done a great job with yours!