Owners who change horses names.....

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

@trubandloki;6128622

A contract can not make a person follow it. It can give you recourse if they do not.

THIS. Our lawyer friend told us that if we want to put anything like this in our contract, it has to be phrased with the words “if” and “then”. i.e. IF buyer should change the name of horse, THEN buyer is subject to a fine up to the purchase price of horse.

This agreement becomes binding when buyer signs…and I ALWAYS include the phrase “in signing, buyer agrees that they have READ and AGREE to ALL stipulations named in this contract”.

Oh and Cartier - I think I love you!

The best client that I ever had…was one that didn’t get a contract at all.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;6128662]
Oh and Cartier - I think I love you!

The best client that I ever had…was one that didn’t get a contract at all.[/QUOTE]

I agree… and I love you too, so let’s run away together to the land of sweetness and light, where everything goes smoothly… and people are perfect… :yes: ‘cause this society of 2012, where everyone is always in it for themselves, at the expense of others, just sucks. I am so so tired of everyone trying to screw the other person. I have gotten to the point where I simply don’t want the aggravation anymore.

[mbm]

ok, so again as an OWNER, I find this thread to be strange.

I totally understand a breeder wanting their suffix or prefix to remain, however, if the name means so much to you - don’t sell the horse. it’s pretty simple.

when someone buys your horse and does well with them - that is FREE advertising for you. no matter what the name.

I agree a horse ID number would correct the problem of breeders losing credit as the horse travels from owner to owner…

Also, if breeders want buyers to keep the names/farm name etc - Please make it a nice prefix! and not something long and awkward and hard to say etc.

I have seen some pony names that are pretty crazy and if I were the buyer I would change the names in a heartbeat!

anyway, a name is a personal thing. If folks are worried about breeder credit (and I get that) then push for a horse ID number. Also, if you are intent on the horse/pony keeping the name you gave it - perhaps don’t name until buyer buys so it can be named by the person who owns it.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6128676]
Ithis society of 2012, where everyone is always in it for themselves, at the expense of others, just sucks. I am so so tired of everyone trying to screw the other person. [/QUOTE]

this could be turned over and pointed to a breeder who is so self centered to think only their name and their wants are important… not the owners… (not saying this about anyone here… just pointing out the dichotomy of your comment)

life is short - best to see it from all angels…and don’t get caught up in the small stuff altho i do agree that as a society we are slipping fast…

[TrueColours]

The best client that I ever had…was one that didn’t get a contract at all.

The area we are living in now - everything is done on a handshake basis. It is SO refreshing to be trusted that you will do what you say you will.

Yes - contracts are drawn up in some cases, but over coffee when we discuss both sides and there is verbal agreement by all parties, in the end, we are told that our signature isnt necessary. Its for “the other people” that they dont get a good feeling about

My best horse deals have been done with no contract and years later, we are still friends and if there is something I dont like about the way it was handled, I pick up the phone and say “Ya jerk! Remember when we agreed to this and this and you said you didnt have a problem with it?” and they say “Oh yeah! Forgot THAT part! Sorry - will change it now!” and our friendship continues

And - if something was agreed to that for some reason they cannot adhere to any longer, I get a phone call and they say “Houston. We have a problem. This is what I am facing. Can we change things a bit?” and its discussed and amended and we both STILL remain friends and have the utmost of respect for each other

All without a contract … its just SO nice to do business this way …

[Equilibrium]

Guys reading through many of the responses it becomes painfully obvious why there can be such a disconnect between breeders and the rest of everyone in the industry. Things like names to not get people in tears and wanting to run away to a place where only honest people exist.

As I’ve stated before I would never change the name of any horse I bought. But I would also never buy a horse from someone with a contract full of insignificant tat unrelated to a horse’s welfare.

I agree you all are at a loss because of not really having a for life number and not being able to track your horse throughout his career. So I guess can see the importance of a name. But complaining about people on here is just one of the reasons for the disconnect between riders and breeders. On previous threads we’ve discussed why people go to Europe and buy instead of home. A few people said because there isn’t the drama over in Europe. This is some of the drama.

Very few people will change a name here. It is thought of as bad luck. But because a horse can easily be tracked it doesn’t seem to get people so freaked out.

Let me ask you this? Is it just the name or is it because horse is not tracked easily? I mean if a horse with a different name than the one you gave is winning hunter derbies or is a world cup SJ and it is known through official record keeping that you are the breeder, are you still going to be angry and feel slighted?

And how many have ex racehorses that you use in breeding and used in showing with her given name? I know quite a few get changed because they aren’t good enough.

Terri

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=mbm;6128728]
this could be turned over and pointed to a breeder who is so self centered to think only their name and their wants are important… not the owners… (not saying this about anyone here… just pointing out the dichotomy of your comment)

life is short - best to see it from all angels…and don’t get caught up in the small stuff altho i do agree that as a society we are slipping fast…[/QUOTE]

You loose me when you take the leap of assigning nefarious motives to why a breeder would like recognition for what they produce, but we can agree to disagree.

That aside, I think you have totally missed my more basic point. I am not arguing that in equines you can retain the name of a horse after it is sold. I really don’t see how you could, especially when the horse is likely to be sold on to a third party. I am pretty creative with contracts, but even for me, that is simply not a condition of sale that would be easy to define or enforce.

But regardless of whether you and I think that it is a reasonable consideration, it is what the parties agreed to. So, what is at issue here is the assertion that the buyer agreed to a condition of sale (to keep the name of the horse the same), and then did not honor their word. Some posters have asserted that it is okay to not honor your word if “the word” is not in writing. My response is, I want to stay well clear of people who think like that.

[enjoytheride]

I’m not a breeder I’m an owner, but I think to say “if you don’t like the horse’s name, don’t buy him.” is pretty silly. A horse’s name is the least important thing to me, unlike almost anything else on the horse it is the most changeable.

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6128768]

Very few people will change a name here. It is thought of as bad luck.

Terri[/QUOTE]

and this as well:yes:

Tamara

[MyssMyst]

I’m not a breeder, but I grew up in the Morgan breed ring, and I paid a lot of attention to prefixes/suffixes. I knew what lines/barns I wanted to avoid at all costs, and could stay clear of them, or seek them out if I knew it was what I wanted. I see the HVK in a name, and I know exactly what kind of breeding is there. Same with Tropic or Skyridge. And I showed horses with names I hated, but that’s just the way it is.

Granted, if your horse is named something WAAAAAAAAY out there, I can see the temptation. If you change the name, the least you can do is keep the prefix/suffix. I’m all for lifetime numbers. I want to know if I take a horse in the pre-greens that he’s competing against true pre-green horses.

[didgery]

I am not a breeder but this thread is morbidly fascinating to me! I can see the wish to use the name you carefully selected throughout the horse’s life, but dearie me—let it go already! In this day and age, it should be easy enough to edit your website to state “Breeder of Enzo’s Odyssey, Formerly Backstage MF” or, if that rubs you the wrong way, then “Breeder of Backstage MF, now showing as Enzo’s Odyssey.” As others have said, the only way to have 100% control is to not sell the horse and I’d say you have a better chance of staying involved with the horse if you avoid hysterics.

As a writer, I sometimes have my work altered (sometimes very badly) by editors. It’s part of the career I’ve chosen, and once my work goes out in the world I can’t control what the editors—it’s new owners, in a sense—do to it. I can only do the best I can with it when it’s on my desk, and then say goodbye. If I get burned badly enough, I learn not to do business with that editor again.

I am eager to see the OP come back and explain what happened to her stallion’s JSF suffix.

[retrofit]

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;6128424]
You can’t be a breeder if you wrote this.[/QUOTE]

You are correct! I am a rider, owner, and I usually purchase my horses from breeders.

I am reading through the breeders’ arguments for retaining a prefix and they are all fairly selfish in nature - the breeder put in this work, money, effort, time, and wants credit - PUBLIC credit. As mbm said, this amounts to free advertising.

Hence my statement that if I am SPONSORED by the breeder, then I will proudly carry their LOGO (aka prefix). Otherwise, I go with the horse’s name - either his given name or one I pick.

I don’t keep brand-name plates on my tack, dealer logos on my truck, or tags on my clothes either.

Dropping a prefix doesn’t make my horse invisible. If someone wants to know about my horse, I’m proud to recite his/her lineage and who bred them and where they came from.

Besides, do you really think that anyone outside of your small breeders’ world knows who any of these prefixes are? I follow local, national, and international dressage, and I only know 1 or 2 - they are mostly in my backyard. Just sayin’.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6128774]
You loose me when you take the leap of assigning nefarious motives to why a breeder would like recognition for what they produce, but we can agree to disagree.

That aside, I think you have totally missed my more basic point. I am not arguing that in equines you can retain the name of a horse after it is sold. I really don’t see how you could, especially when the horse is likely to be sold on to a third party. I am pretty creative with contracts, but even for me, that is simply not a condition of sale that would be easy to define or enforce.

But regardless of whether you and I think that it is a reasonable consideration, it is what the parties agreed to. So, what is at issue here is the assertion that the buyer agreed to a condition of sale (to keep the name of the horse the same), and then did not honor their word. Some posters have asserted that it is okay to not honor your word if “the word” is not in writing. My response is, I want to stay well clear of people who think like that.[/QUOTE]

my comment was more about how the OWNER would think the breeder was being selfish…

but, I agree with your basic point: that agreements should be honored, and disagreements should be a private conversation - NOT a public display (such as this thread) …

instead of calling the new owner crying , if the OP had waited until she was more calm and then rationally sent a message and asked for dialog - who knows the outcome?

instead my guess is that the owner is now not a happy camper to have his name besmirched (I love that word!) here on line for all to see without even his side of the story being presented.

So - to the OP I say again - you might consider editing your posts - then wait till you are calmer and send a message to the owner asking for dialog. that is ALL you can do!

[trubandloki]

@retrofit;6128877

Besides, do you really think that anyone outside of your small breeders’ world knows who any of these prefixes are?

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

I was correcting what my vet had for my pony’s full name when I was there the other day. They were missing a letting in the suffix.
The vet tech asked me “what do those letters mean anyway?”.

[Cartier]

@mbm;6128896

but, I agree with your basic point: that agreements should be honored, and disagreements should be a private conversation - NOT a public display (such as this thread) …

I agreed with the former but not the latter. Just got off the phone with a friend who was in court this morning… he was like a lamb being led to slaughter, he had the facts and the law on his side, and he trusted that the court would see through the mess and do the right thing. What he did not account for is that the opposing party lied through their teeth… and my friend lost. This is a matter that he will recover from, but he is stunned. What stings most is that justice did not prevail. Rather, a liar got away with it, at least for now. And so it goes. We all have to live in the cesspool created by people who have no morals or integrity.

[Sakura_Hill_Farm]

For what it is worth, Enzo’s Odyssey is being shown today at the Young Horse Show in Wellington in the In Hand 4 and 5-yr. olds, 4 yr. old Jump Chute, and 4 yr. old Flat Under Saddle classes, with Marabet Farm listed as Breeder.

[Backstage]

I think most everyone would agree that make a commitment (in writing or verbally) then breaking that commitment is a pretty miserable thing to do. The easy answer is if you are going to change the name, don’t make the commitment and let the chips fall where they may.

The harder part is whether most breeders can really afford to lose a sale over that sort of thing. How many of you can turn down good money for your horse’s on that principle, especiallyl in this economy?

It’s funny, because I do completely understand the breeder’s point of vue on this one. Using a prefix or suffix can be really good (or bad!) advertising. And I’m sure most breeder’s put some thought into each of their foal’s names. I get that, and I do respect the work that goes into producing a foal.

That said, I think its a foregone conclusion that not everyone has the same taste in names. Is it so horrible that I want to like my horse’s name if I’m going to spend tens of thousands of dollars boarding it, training it and showing it? I don’t think it is - so ultimately, because I wouldn’t go back on my word, I guess I would just pass on a horse if it had a horrible name and the breeder wouldn’t budge on that point.

I think in most cases, breeders would probably have more luck with a prefix or suffix rather than an entire name. I suspect most people I know wouldn’t mind a few extra letters if they realized it was important to the breeder. One of the big problems is that when the horse changes hands the second time, the purchaser may not even know about the breeder’s preferences.

[EventerAJ]

I can see some fuss on both sides but I guess I side with the new owner. If I sign a bill of sale for a horse, I can call it whatever I want…I own the horse. In general, breeders do not name their TB yearlings if they intend to sell; they are named by The Person Who Intends To Race It. Sure, there are a couple yearlings or weanlings at Keeneland that have a name…but it generally doesn’t stick and nobody gets upset about it. Case in point: The famous Azeri colt “Vallenzeri,” the $7.7M buy-back was eventually sold and re-named “Take Control.”

Name prefixes or suffixes only stick around if they are prestigous, desirable or fashionable… in eventing, names including Fernhill, Clifton, etc often signify “Import!” and are associated with quality, so keeping that tag is common and riders are proud to have it. If you want your farm tag to stick, you have to get people to WANT IT in the name.

It’s a double-edged sword…they don’t want it in the name if it doesn’t mean anything, but it doesn’t mean anything until you have a successful horse out there competing with the nametag. If your nametag is unknown/unproven, it only benefits YOU (the breeder) to have it there; it does nothing for the rider/owner. To entice a rider to keep the nametag, perhaps you should “sponsor” such horse, for a set fee for life or per year, to “own” naming rights. I’m assuming this is what various companies do… “Budweiser Gem Twist,” “Samsung Woodstock”, etc).

Or, just keep ownership of the horse, keep the name what you want, and foot the bills until the horse has made your nametag famous and fashionable and sells your product.

[didgery]

[QUOTE=Backstage;6128969]
I think most everyone would agree that make a commitment (in writing or verbally) then breaking that commitment is a pretty miserable thing to do. The easy answer is if you are going to change the name, don’t make the commitment and let the chips fall where they may.

The harder part is whether most breeders can really afford to lose a sale over that sort of thing. How many of you can turn down good money for your horse’s on that principle, especiallyl in this economy?

It’s funny, because I do completely understand the breeder’s point of vue on this one. Using a prefix or suffix can be really good (or bad!) advertising. And I’m sure most breeder’s put some thought into each of their foal’s names. I get that, and I do respect the work that goes into producing a foal.

That said, I think its a foregone conclusion that not everyone has the same taste in names. Is it so horrible that I want to like my horse’s name if I’m going to spend tens of thousands of dollars boarding it, training it and showing it? I don’t think it is - so ultimately, because I wouldn’t go back on my word, I guess I would just pass on a horse if it had a horrible name and the breeder wouldn’t budge on that point.

I think in most cases, breeders would probably have more luck with a prefix or suffix rather than an entire name. I suspect most people I know wouldn’t mind a few extra letters if they realized it was important to the breeder. One of the big problems is that when the horse changes hands the second time, the purchaser may not even know about the breeder’s preferences.[/QUOTE]

This is a good balanced position on the matter, in my opinion.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Backstage;6128969]

I think in most cases, breeders would probably have more luck with a prefix or suffix rather than an entire name. .[/QUOTE]

This. I own a Connemara pony and his name includes the farm that bred him… Now, I want to honor the breeder, but the name is long and awkward … the breed registry says i cant remove the farm name and get breed points.

so what is an owner to do? Keep the long awkward name and honor the breeder or use a name that is more fitting and not show in breed shows go for all breeds etc?

its not a fun place to be…

hint to breeders: register your farm as a 2 or 3 letter prefix or better a sufffix so that we owners will want to keep the info out there for you.