Owners who change horses names.....

[Tapperjockey]

I’m surprised more buyers aren’t upset about this. I want to know who the horse I’m riding is, for many reasons.

1. If I like him that much, I may want to buy another. And a horse with the same bloodlines (or similar) seems like a logical place to start.

2. I am grateful that someone took the time and money to breed him. And they fully deserve the credit for it.

3. I want to make sure I’m not being cheated/swindled in some way. If I buy a green horse, I want it to really be a green horse. If I’m buying a packer that has supposedly shown everywhere from HITS to Mars, I want to be able to track how well they did, and when, and with what rider.

[retrofit]

This is a silly complaint.

I don’t keep initials/prefixes. If the breeder wants to sponsor me, that’s one thing. If not, prefixes go away.

I fail to understand how this is a loss for the breeder. Put updates on your site, i.e. “Dobbin’s offspring Backstage MF, now competing as Enzo’s Oddysey, just won his first pre-green blah-di-blah”. It’s still an accomplishment by one of “your” offspring. It’s still a good thing - for you - that the horse is out there showing, and that show home discount is still buying you credentials.

You should be glad the current owner is keeping you updated! What if they changed the name, didn’t tell you a thing, and you lost track of the horse? Then you couldn’t even update your web site at all!

Consider repeat business. Trivial complaints about name changes won’t help business relations. Remember, he/she might come back to you for their next horse - if you don’t piss them off too much in the meantime.

Or, if it bothers you that much, you should offer to pay the fee and submit the forms for any name changes at the time of sale.

People want to name their horses something meaningful to them. As long as greedy registries want to charge upwards of $100 for a simple clerical change, most people won’t bother to pay it.

[red_mares]

Maggie,

It sounds like you don’t get it or want to get it, either. I don’t see where Bacardi or I have been nasty. We pointed out that your behaviour isn’t generally acceptable in most business transactions and played devil’s advocate, how is that mean and nasty? Is it just because we didn’t say what you wanted to hear?

I don’t know that there needs to be a “solution” here. This will probably peg high on your nasty-meter, but horses are livestock, and there are rights that go with being the owner of livestock. Unless you are prepared to show them yourself, I think you are SOL. sorry.

[Cartier]

I agree with you red mares, I don’t think you’ve been nasty… but I think you’re missing the point.

Here is how I see it, based upon our experience. Party A agrees to sell X to Party B based upon price and considerations. The consideration in this instance is that B will not change the name of the horse. B then changes the name of the horse. I am not going to argue whether this was a good or bad idea, it is what these parties agreed to. Party B changed the name of the horse, so it is a now matter of a breach of the agreement.

If people think that only written agreements are enforceable, they are wrong, but more on point, if they think that putting the agreement in writing guarantees that parties will abide by the terms, they are TOTALLY wrong. Those who think that a written contract is a guarantee of performance are totally inexperienced in business.

If a party to an agreement is not going to honor their word, it really doesn’t matter what’s in writing. Over the years we have had dozens of contractual agreements… at the end of the day, some people honor their word, and some do not. It does not matter what the agreement said, it is a matter of integrity. Chasing after liars and cheats in court is an expensive and frustrating proposition, even when you win in court.

At the heart of all of this is a simple matter of honor and integrity.

Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about emotion and tears, especially in relation to a stressful situation. People get uspet, they honestly show their emotions, so what? And in this instance it was a matter between friends, the tears and emotion expressed genuine feelings. So what? Nothing wrong with that at all. I think it’s really odd that people are so neurotic about showing normal human emotion. Tears, in this instance, were very normal.

The people I want to avoid in business are those who lie and cheat, and those who defend lying and cheating because it is acceptable to them. I would never do business with these types of people, they only create chaos and life is too short.

[VirginiaBred]

@retrofit

I don’t keep initials/prefixes. If the breeder wants to sponsor me, that’s one thing. If not, prefixes go away.

I fail to understand how this is a loss for the breeder. Put updates on your site, i.e. “Dobbin’s offspring Backstage MF, now competing as Enzo’s Oddysey, just won his first pre-green blah-di-blah”. It’s still an accomplishment by one of “your” offspring. It’s still a good thing - for you - that the horse is out there showing, and that show home discount is still buying you credentials.

You should be glad the current owner is keeping you updated! What if they changed the name, didn’t tell you a thing, and you lost track of the horse? Then you couldn’t even update your web site at all!

Consider repeat business. Trivial complaints about name changes won’t help business relations. Remember, he/she might come back to you for their next horse - if you don’t piss them off too much in the meantime.

Or, if it bothers you that much, you should offer to pay the fee and submit the forms for any name changes at the time of sale.

People want to name their horses something meaningful to them. As long as greedy registries want to charge upwards of $100 for a simple clerical change, most people won’t bother to pay it.

You can’t be a breeder if you wrote this. As a breeder, you see things differently. You spend hours contemplating the cross (sometimes months or years) and your heart & soul goes into the care and safe delivery of your mare and her foal.

Now, I’m a pony breeder and I have a registered prefix. My mother was a founding member of the Virginia Pony Breeder’s Association where the idea of paying to register your farm’s prefix was born. We also record our foals with the USEF the calendar year they are born because it’s the right thing to do AND, it’s less expensive.

The foal is named and because I’ve recorded them, they are assigned a number that (hopefully) follows them everywhere. We would be devastated if someone changed their name because we breed for quality, not quantity and only breed four or less mares each year.

I understand that not everyone may like a name that an animal comes with, once purchased. We have had a name changed, but dropping a prefix is blasphemy! It is also a fine by the VPBA unless you have done the appropriate advance paperwork and have paid to drop it.

Example: We bred and raised Otteridge Checkmark. She won everything in-hand as a youngster in the breeding classes and was then successfully sold. The Arutes purchased her and changed her name, - but NOT her prefix - to Otteridge Dreamin of Blue. We were still able to learn about her and see her occasionally.

You have no idea how important it is for a breeder that has a registered prefix to have that tie. Sure, you could put all that on your website (if you even know what the new name is) but it’s not the same as having your animal’s name called out by the announcer and having people you meet say, “Oh you had/bred so and so”.

It’s branding for you and your farm.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;6128424]
You can’t be a breeder if you wrote this. As a breeder, you see things differently. You spend hours contemplating the cross (sometimes months or years) and your heart & soul goes into the care and safe delivery of your mare and her foal.

Now, I’m a pony breeder and I have a registered prefix. My mother was a founding member of the Virginia Pony Breeder’s Association where the idea of paying to register your farm’s prefix was born. We also record our foals with the USEF the calendar year they are born because it’s the right thing to do AND, it’s less expensive.

The foal is named and because I’ve recorded them, they are assigned a number that (hopefully) follows them everywhere. We would be devastated if someone changed their name because we breed for quality, not quantity and only breed four or less mares each year.

I understand that not everyone may like a name that an animal comes with, once purchased. We have had a name changed, but dropping a prefix is blasphemy! It is also a fine by the VPBA unless you have done the appropriate advance paperwork and have paid to drop it.

Example: We bred and raised Otteridge Checkmark. She won everything in-hand as a youngster in the breeding classes and was then successfully sold. The Arutes purchased her and changed her name, - but NOT her prefix - to Otteridge Dreamin of Blue. We were still able to learn about her and see her occasionally.

You have no idea how important it is for a breeder that has a registered prefix to have that tie. Sure, you could put all that on your website (if you even know what the new name is) but it’s not the same as having your animal’s name called out by the announcer and having people you meet say, “Oh you had/bred so and so”.

It’s branding for you and your farm.[/QUOTE]

Boy do I agree with you on this. But the truth is, the general population really hasn’t a clue what it means in to be a breeder i.e. someone with a long- term multigenerational breeding goals focused on successive generations of improving quality (as opposed to someone who simply has control over the uterus of a female and wants to make a fast buck). The general population not only doesn’t understand it, they don’t value it. They aren’t going to appreciate our perspective anymore then we appreciate theirs. We are divided by a chasm that only life experience will bridge, and even then, some never get it.

[VirginiaBred]

@Cartier

The general population not only doesn’t understand it, they don’t value it.

THIS. Unfortunately.

[Tapperjockey]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6128430]
Boy do I agree with you on this. But the truth is, the general population really hasn’t a clue what it means in to be a breeder i.e. someone with a long- term multigenerational breeding goals focused on successive generations of improving quality (as opposed to someone who simply has control over the uterus of a female and wants to make a fast buck). The general population not only doesn’t understand it, they don’t value it. They aren’t going to appreciate our perspective anymore then we appreciate theirs. We are divided by a chasm that only life experience will bridge, and even then, some never get it.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they will when breeders start breeding less and less because they can’t sell offspring for a decent amount, because no one knows how great their stock is, and then there are no more. Though, by then it will be too late.

[Somermist]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6128430]
Boy do I agree with you on this. But the truth is, the general population really hasn’t a clue what it means in to be a breeder i.e. someone with a long- term multigenerational breeding goals focused on successive generations of improving quality (as opposed to someone who simply has control over the uterus of a female and wants to make a fast buck). The general population not only doesn’t understand it, they don’t value it. They aren’t going to appreciate our perspective anymore then we appreciate theirs. We are divided by a chasm that only life experience will bridge, and even then, some never get it.[/QUOTE]

Perfectly said.

[TrueColours]

Cartier and Virginia Bred - you both beat me to what I was going to post this morning

Both of your posts stated what I was going to say impeccably and perfectly

You are either a person of honor and integrity or you are not.

Its really that simple …

[Spike]

Is it only me who sees a parallel to be made between removing the name (credit) of a photographer on the photo he tooked after purchasing said photo and removing the breeder’s suffix on a horse’s name after purchasing said horse?? Oh wait. Breeding is not an art. And no one care about who worked hard to “create” that horse. Oups. It slipped from my fingers to my keybord.

Here in Quebec, there was once upon a time a big breeding farm, with, past in those days, some breeding stock quality rarely seen in our part of the country. It was called Haras de Beaupré. Or for english folks, HB farm. They were putting HB or “de Beaupré” after the names of the horses they’ve bred. They even branded their horses on the right hip with a stylised HB brand. When people were looking at those horses on showgrounds, and hear Joebloe HB… They automatically knew that the horse was from that specific farm. If they liked what they’ve seen, it was a good publicity for the farm. They were stopping by at HB farm shopping because they’ve seen some nice horses TAGGED HB at the show. If there was no HB after the name, I bet the spectator/potential client would’nt have bothered running to the rider and ask where the horse was from…

[trubandloki]

The lesson here is, if it truly matters to you get it written in your contract. Period.
A good contract goes a long way of clearing up any confusion and it can keep a friendship intact because there is none of thinking you said X when everyone else heard Y.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;6128580]
The lesson here is, if it truly matters to you get it written in your contract. Period.
A good contract goes a long way of clearing up any confusion and it can keep a friendship intact because there is none of thinking you said X when everyone else heard Y.[/QUOTE]

I wish life were that simple, but it’s not. A written contract is fine, but it is not the simple solution people think it is. Even the written contract has draw backs. We have a contract with the dogs that is one of the best I’ve ever seen, and still we find that some people honor it and some don’t.

Let’s just say that you had a clause in the contract that said something like, “I, Party B, will not change the name of this horse.” And then, party B changes the name of the horse. What do you do? Do you go to court? What will it cost to hire an attorney? What are your damages? Even if the court finds in your favor, what penalty should B pay? Will you recover enough from B to even cover attorney fees and court costs? What if the judge is having a bad day and doesn’t rule in your favor? What if that simple clause is found to be unenforceable?

If you think that having a written contract resolves all problems, you are flat out wrong. If you are dealing with people who lack integrity, and don’t honor their word, it really won’t matter what the contract says. When dealing with liars and cheats, a written contract just gives you something to go to court and fight about… it is not the be all end all. Even when you win, going to court is an expensive drain of your time and energy. Having honor and integrity would make the whole fuss unnecessary.

If you know up front that the person you are going to do business with lies, or defends liars, or thinks that lying, cheating, etc. are just fine, unless/until you get caught by a higher power like the courts, then it’s best to go elsewhere with your business. There are people who honor their word without the threat of going to court.

[RunningwaterWBs]

Does anyone know how Felix’s breeder reacted when Debbie MacDonald changed his name from Fight Club?

[TrueColours]

The lesson here is, if it truly matters to you get it written in your contract. Period.

Not quite, from what I can recall from some beginning law classes that I took

A verbal agreement is equally as valid and enforceable as a written contract as long as there is understanding and acceptance by both parties

If someone is going to break a contract or an agreement, it isnt going to matter much if it was written or not. It will be broken …

[trubandloki]

A contract can not make a person follow it. It can give you recourse if they do not.

A verbal conversation that modifies a written contract with all kinds of restrictions is not going to get you anywhere if you decide to go to court. A written contract will.

I never said (or even thought) a written contract would solve all problems. It is just the best place to start. It certainly is never a bad place to start.

I can totally see why breeders want the name of a horse they bred and assume is going to do well kept the same. It makes logical sense to me. I still think once you sell the horse it is the new owners right to call them whatever they want and if they do not want MF at the end of their horse’s name they are not evil for changing it.

It is also highly unprofessional to call up someone and cry at them over a business transaction of this sort.

ETA - TCF posted while I was posting:

@TrueColours;6128620

A verbal agreement is equally as valid and enforceable as a written contract as long as there is understanding and acceptance by both parties

Did they teach you that you can not easily modify a written contract verbally?
If the car salesman is not willing to put in writing that you have an extended six month warranty, even though all the paper work says the car is sold as is, you are not likely to be able to get any court to say you actually have that extended warranty.

[LucyShow]

[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127375]
I am a firm believer in standing behind what you do and say. Michael promised me he would not change the name and then did out of the blue. So no, not taking his name down.

I also don’t like all the hiding behind anonymous names and not posting peoples names on the BB’s. If you can’t stand up for something you write or say then don’t say anything at all.

Regardless I am posting this because this is one of the things that has to change. When a horse is born it should be given a name and number that is his or hers for life. That is also the number the horse shows under for every show. That is the way it is done in Europe I believe. That way there can be no deception. If you don’t have the papers and number for the horse, no showing. Same for the horses brought in from Europe. The number system should be reciprocal with Europe. Then people can’t bring in GP jumpers and put them in low divisions.

I am just so tired of all the dishonesty in the horse world!!! It makes me wonder why I am still breeding sometimes. Sorry, having a really sad, bummer of a day.

Maggie[/QUOTE]

I feel for you. But you are only partly right about the not being possible to change names on a horse in Europe. You can. I´m not sure of costs in the other countries but here in Sweden it´s about 500USD to do that and then it will always say "Enzo´s Odyssey (ex Backstage MF) " in the resultlist.

I have an aquaintance that sold a horse called Causa Rei to Jessica Kuerten who immediately renamed her Zirana or something similar…no namechange like above in the resultlist in Germany at least when I saw one.

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=babecakes;6128308]
Balt’Amour had a breeding suffix when you bought him, he is registered RPSI with one, did you drop it? No use of it on your website, your signature, or your advertising. Maybe I’m confused - by your statements.[/QUOTE]

yes- he is listed as Balt’dAmour JSF in his RPSI paperwork

Jump Start Farm now in Lexington Ky

Tamara

[Just_Wondering]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6128604]
I wish life were that simple, but it’s not. A written contract is fine, but it is not the simple solution people think it is. Even the written contract has draw backs. We have a contract with the dogs that is one of the best I’ve ever seen, and still we find that some people honor it and some don’t.

There are people who honor their word without the threat of going to court.[/QUOTE]

A contract - like a lock - will help keep honest people honest.

In the end though - if someone really likes your horse they will ASK about the breeding. The performance of the horse says more than their name.

[RunningwaterWBs]

@trubandloki;6128622

I can totally see why breeders want the name of a horse they bred and assume is going to do well kept the same. It makes logical sense to me. I still think once you sell the horse it is the new owners right to call them whatever they want and if they do not want MF at the end of their horse’s name they are not evil for changing it.

It is also highly unprofessional to call up someone and cry at them over a business transaction of this sort.

I agree. I used to work for a very experienced Morgan breeder. I remember asking him if he checked out the farms he sold horses to, got references from buyers, or checked up on horses after he’d sold them. He said, “No. After I cash the check that horse is theirs to do with what they choose and I have no rights to it.” It was a hard lesson for me then, but I’ve come to believe he was right. I also think this sort of thing is why many buyers go to Europe or only deal with farms who have a similar policy to my friend’s.

Breeders are in a tough place. No, most horse people don’t understand what it takes, financially and emotionally, to get a foal on the ground. But those horse people are also our clientele and it’s important not to alienate them. I think all you can do is ask politely – “please keep the name,” “please keep me updated on progress” – but there’s no guarantee and it’s fairly futile to try to enforce your wishes.