I don’t know if this is do-able since I really know nothing about the registrations but is it possible to put an FEI passport on them? I mean the $1100 fee was enough to stop me from changing my mare’s name despite how badly I wanted/want to.
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6127787]
if they tore down all the Frank Lloyd Wright buildings,or denied that he built them what would we have ever had of him left now today?
Tamara[/QUOTE]
From an emotional standpoint I agree with you that to change the work of a visionary artist would be wrong, but it’s property that once it changes hands, the new owner is free to do with what they please unless limited by contract or by law.
Frank Lloyd Wright wasn’t always hailed as the artist he is today and not all of his buildings still exist. They were demolished or destroyed at the discretion of those that owned them. And they had every right, by law, to do so.
I sold a house last year that I completely gutted and restored. I had a lot of custom finishes and things were done with a lot of thought to livability and practicality from my perspective. I did the work along side my brother and my father, so it was an emotional journey for me. A lot of blood, sweat and tears. When I sold it I couldn’t stipulate to the seller what he could and could not do with the house in the future. There was no way for me to write that into the contract. While I can hope he doesn’t throw wall to wall carpet over my reclaimed barn board flooring or that he doesn’t have a dog pissing all over the hand carved base boards, I can do nothing about it if he does. I hope that the water tile in the ceiling of the master bath shower meets their definition of practicality, but if it doesn’t, it’s their choice to change it so that it does meet their needs. I rebuilt that house with my own hands, but it doesn’t give me any control of it after I have sold it.
The horse’s name is no different. They were not legally obligated to keep it. Backstage MF may not have been practical for them for reasons that have been outlined already in this post. Just like I couldn’t ride a Horny Snowflake, Michael may not have been able to ride a Backstage MF(er).
Selling a horse is still a business transaction and approaching it wrought with emotion is generally a bad idea in general. Unfortunately in the horse world, it seems to be forgotten that horses are still considered property in the eyes of the law and of the courts. This is why it needs to be put in writing and emotion removed from the equation.
[QUOTE=3Dogs;6127743]
oh dear this all leads back to the endlessly debated Universal Number - USEF data tracking - which if we had, frankly, I don’t/wouldn’t CARE about the name changes (which seem to have all sorts of personal attachments to each owner ;)- which I GET as a breeder, but is not really the point - credit for breeding is the point ) So if Alfie becomes Bobby, still the horse I bred 
Heck, while they didn’t BREED him, Silverhorne Sporthorse had a great stallion named Vallado and then Larry G bought him and changed his name to “Praise” :eek: - a personal yuck myself .[/QUOTE]
Yes, yes and more yes!!!
It was Silver Creek Sporthorses that imported Vallado. Praise is bad but come on…Enzo’s Odessey is worse.
We have to work on universal numbers!!!
Maggie
[QUOTE=sansibar;6127814]
I don’t know if this is do-able since I really know nothing about the registrations but is it possible to put an FEI passport on them? I mean the $1100 fee was enough to stop me from changing my mare’s name despite how badly I wanted/want to.[/QUOTE]
Backstage MF has a Hanoverian passport with this name. I transferred ownership to Michael sadly. He can’t change his passport name but USEF doesn’t care. They don’t even look at the passports. Backstage MF also has a permenant USEF number. I don’t know if Michael did a name change or a completely new number for Enzo’s Odessey.
Maggie
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6127502]
Maggie, I sympathize but renaming a horse is also happening in Europe, and I hate it also (you don’t like the name, then don’t buy the horse).
The big advantage my side of the pond is that we have the UELN enforced, so a unique number for each horse, it make it easy to find the original name of the horse and recognize the breeder.[/QUOTE]
I’d really like to learn more about the UELN system. We need to do the same thing here and have it be reciprocal with Europe.
Maggie
I think you are simply wrong about the relationship. Maggie did know this guy. And much as I respect what you have taken the time to post here, I find your analogy about a house sale so weak that it is irrelevant. But that seems insulting, and I do not mean to insult you.
So, setting my opinion of your post aside, I think that there is one very important value that is being lost here. The purchaser’s word (our promise) should mean something. In this instance the purchaser purportedly gave his word (which was of material value to Maggie, and clearly she relied upon his word to her detriment). There is an ethic in today’s culture which goes something like this, “I will promise whatever, to entice you to do such and such in the moment, but don’t ever hold me to my word.”
People defend this conduct with the old adage about getting it in writing. I would respond that it doesn’t matter much if you have a written contract, they can all be challenged in court, but more on point, our promises should mean something.
I think we are defined by our integrity or lack thereof. Standing by our word should be the norm… not the exception.
This was not a complicated promise, it was a simple straightforward promise, that was not honored. I find such conduct reprehensible, regardless of whether or not one can get away with it.
Did you have it stone-cold in writing in a witnessed contract that he couldn’t change the horse’s name? No? Then sorry. Your crying is nothing more than sour grapes. Business is business these days. As others have said - hard lesson learned, but hopefully LEARNED. I used to trust nearly everyone with a smile & a handshake. No more. Now I want everything except a blood test - lol!!!
And as sad as you are about it? Texting & leaving crying messages? And you & others here means it just shows that you care? You do realize that he may have saved your messages so he can prove to others that you’re an unprofessional whackadoo rather than a professional breeder & you could lose future business because of it? And with proof you couldn’t go against him for libel? Didn’t insist on an articulate written contract & are now whining about it? Boy, you sure know how to burn bridges.
Again - I’m sorry how this has panned out for you, but frankly it’s your own fault. I’d pull up my big-girl panties, dry my tears, & just move on.
(Oh - & if you plan to continue on in the breeding business, hope that you’re grown up enough to learn from this mistake, laugh about it when it may be brought up to you (the horse world is a SMALL world), & realize that burning bridges isn’t a good business hobby.
[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127835]
Yes, yes and more yes!!!
It was Silver Creek Sporthorses that imported Vallado. Praise is bad but come on…Enzo’s Odessey is worse.
We have to work on universal numbers!!!
Maggie[/QUOTE]
Yipes MY BAD Maggie - thanks for correcting me - of COURSE Silvercreek - gad, grey cells gone dead LOL
And what an odd turn this thread has taken as often the case on COTH
Anyhoo, UELN numbers. Period. 
[QUOTE=Bacardi1;6127914]
Did you have it stone-cold in writing in a witnessed contract that he couldn’t change the horse’s name? No? Then sorry. Your crying is nothing more than sour grapes. Business is business these days. As others have said - hard lesson learned, but hopefully LEARNED. I used to trust nearly everyone with a smile & a handshake. No more. Now I want everything except a blood test - lol!!!
And as sad as you are about it? Texting & leaving crying messages? And you & others here means it just shows that you care? You do realize that he may have saved your messages so he can prove to others that you’re an unprofessional whackadoo rather than a professional breeder & you could lose future business because of it? And with proof you couldn’t go against him for libel? Didn’t insist on an articulate written contract & are now whining about it? Boy, you sure know how to burn bridges.
Again - I’m sorry how this has panned out for you, but frankly it’s your own fault. I’d pull up my big-girl panties, dry my tears, & just move on.
(Oh - & if you plan to continue on in the breeding business, hope that you’re grown up enough to learn from this mistake, laugh about it when it may be brought up to you (the horse world is a SMALL world), & realize that burning bridges isn’t a good business hobby.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I was thinking. I could see tears over skinny & maltreated, but not this.
Holly … could you elaborate on the damages that you would seek if someone were to break your enforceable contract by changing the USEF number of name?
Thanks.
The reality is that it happens all the time. Even a written contract isn’t worth the paper it was written on, UNLESS you are going to spend the $$ to try to enforce it. And I think that would be hard to do anyway.
Yes, it sucks for the breeder, been there, got the tee shirt :no:
Red Mares and Bacardi, you are a tough twosome but again you are missing the point. When I said what should I/we do about this I was talking about a long term solution. Do you really think I care about burning bridges with a trainer/friend who just screwed me so badly???
Seriously ladies, while I am amused by the pep talk (I think) I am well aware it was all my fault for being so stupid to trust someone I thought was a friend.
Next, my emotions are really none of your business. I can feel any way that I want. Yes, I was hurt, then really mad. So mad in fact that I just hired the top equine lawyer in Wellington to do all new sales contracts for me. Believe me, they will be ironclad and enforceable.
My MAIN reason for posting this was to EDUCATE others by learning from my mistakes. I’ve been breeding for 30 years. I don’t think I have to pull up my big girl pants anytime soon. They are firmly in place. I think you two need to stop looking for any opportunity to be nasty to anyone you can here. I like to think this is a place to share things, all kinds of things. And help each other. It’s really easy to be nasty when you don’t even have the guts to sign your own name.
Maggie
This very subject came up over on the Pedigree Query forum awhile back:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=249167&highlight=#249167
A lot of very good points were raised and it all boiled down to whether someone chose to respect the time, thought and effort that went into specific breedings. You cant force someone to respect you or respect a verbal agreement you had with them. If they are going to be an ass and go back on something like this without even having the decency to discuss it with you to see if there is a middle ground at all that will make it win/win for both of you, you have to wonder if their word will be good on anything
Im sorry Maggie. I know how much that colt meant to you … 
[QUOTE=TrueColours;6128147]
This very subject came up over on the Pedigree Query forum awhile back:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=249167&highlight=#249167
A lot of very good points were raised and it all boiled down to whether someone chose to respect the time, thought and effort that went into specific breedings. You cant force someone to respect you or respect a verbal agreement you had with them. If they are going to be an ass and go back on something like this without even having the decency to discuss it with you to see if there is a middle ground at all that will make it win/win for both of you, you have to wonder if their word will be good on anything
Im sorry Maggie. I know how much that colt meant to you … :([/QUOTE]
Wow. I always liked Mirabeau GF. But I wouldn’t deal with his owner now, or any of her horses. How horrible to be so disrespectful of the breeder. You’d think being a breeder herself, she would be more empathetic to the breeders request.
as a complete outsider, while i can sympathize with the breeder - as the OWNER i would feel it is my right to name MY horse anything i please + plus i could show it etc using any name i like.
I just don’t see how a breeder can force a buyer to do anything. Even if it is written in the contract - what good will that do? Unless you stipulate some kind of fine (is that even possible?) how would that kind of contract even help?
I get that breeders want to be known… But maybe the best thing to do is to not name a horse and name it when it is sold? i guess that wont work unless it is a foal.
As for the rest - i kind of feel like i walked into a private conversation - and suggest that the OP edit the personal and not so nice things she is saying about the buyer.
The internet is forever. its not like having a private conversation with your pals…
I am editing this to add: While a breeder may feel a special bond with their foals, it is a bit much to say that they will “know” the horse better than anyone else and that special knowledge is what is used to name the horse the only possible name that is “right”? .
each horse/person relationship is special… and each person is going to “see” the horse differently - and that also pertains to names…
[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127375]
… When a horse is born it should be given a name and number that is his or hers for life. That is also the number the horse shows under for every show. That is the way it is done in Europe I believe. That way there can be no deception. If you don’t have the papers and number for the horse, no showing…[/QUOTE]
Well not really - at least in Germany. A horse gets a lifenumber and no official name at birth. They first get an official name when they are entered as breeding stock to the stallion or mare books of the registry upon inspection (mares) or licensing (Stallions). This name can not be changed. The show name is given with the FN (when they aare registered as show horse) and can be changed by any owner as often as they want to and pay for the fee to this organisation.
Honestly I would also put you on the nuts list (and unprofessional breeder) if you would call me about such thing crying.
How many inhabitants does the USA have ? How many are breeding horses and whos farm has initials MF or the owner has initials MF ? I bet quite a few, so I do not see how this MF behind a name gives you credit and recognition. A prefix as the welsh have - a farmname- would help, but like this ? I doubt it. Do you expect people to put in MF into google and find your farm homepage ? That does not work… Add the new showname to your homepage, be happy that the horse made it to a good show home and that’s it…
I as a rider would also change a show name that I would not like and I just hate this letter suffix thing so I would drop that immediatly. A lot of horses overhere that have a one letter suffix of their owner or previous owner, not even of the breeder. I just find it rediculous to add a letter. Would you call a child Anna ML ? Or Jack AB ?
I as a breeder would think sad, I had made up my mind for this name and thought about something nice, so they do not like it and change it. But hey they bought the horse. Its theirs now. If I want a horse to have the name lifelong. I have to keep it.
I would never change a barn name though. They are used to that, so it stays. Also am a little believer of the bad luck for name change, but I put it to the name that a horse is knowing as barn name.
[QUOTE=mbm;6128282]
as a complete outsider, while i can sympathize with the breeder - as the OWNER i would feel it is my right to name MY horse anything i please + plus i could show it etc using any name i like.
I just don’t see how a breeder can force a buyer to do anything. Even if it is written in the contract - what good will that do? Unless you stipulate some kind of fine (is that even possible?) how would that kind of contract even help?
I get that breeders want to be known… But maybe the best thing to do is to not name a horse and name it when it is sold? i guess that wont work unless it is a foal.
As for the rest - i kind of feel like i walked into a private conversation - and suggest that the OP edit the personal and not so nice things she is saying about the buyer.
The internet is forever. its not like having a private conversation with your pals…
I am editing this to add: While a breeder may feel a special bond with their foals, it is a bit much to say that they will “know” the horse better than anyone else and that special knowledge is what is used to name the horse the only possible name that is “right”? .
each horse/person relationship is special… and each person is going to “see” the horse differently - and that also pertains to names…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that the breeder knows an individual horse better in all cases (though hopefully would know his breeding better. Like where his faults came from, etc). Breeding is a very thankless job in a lot of ways. I respect that people want to name their own horse, but I don’t think keeping the breeders suffix or prefix is unreasonable in any case.
[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127245]
I am so upset!!! 
… it is so important for breeders to get SOME recognition that initials at the end of a name become so important.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127722]I’m way confused by this statement…I’ve never had a horse loose a suffix. Are you sure you are thinking about the right person?
Maggie[/QUOTE]
Balt’Amour had a breeding suffix when you bought him, he is registered RPSI with one, did you drop it? No use of it on your website, your signature, or your advertising. Maybe I’m confused - by your statements.
I do feel for you Maggie but I also understand an owners perspective to a degree. But changing a horse’s identity over and over such as Iron Horse describes is what really gets me.
I used to breed TB’s. It is typical to let the people that will be racing the TB name them. Many times I would have to send the forms in for owners to name them. So I can tell you it was hard work filling in the choice’s of some really bad names but at the end of the day it’s their horse. I always had their barn names at birth and that’s what stayed in my mind. I think the last one I bred is going to be called, That’s The Why. Ick in my book but whatever. Here’s the thing about a name, they can seem really awful until a horse is winning be it racehorse or whatever. A winning horse is never a bad name!
And all registries seem to do things differently over here. For Irish horses you can’t name until 2. It used to be 4. You can name that at birth if you register a prefix or suffix with HSI. It obviously cost extra. But many times it’s not a letter, it can be a whole word in front of the name which I just don’t like. As Alexandra states these letters and extra tag ons are becoming over the top. They way it is here you can track and you will always be breeder so even if there is a name change everyone knows where they came from.
And not to be nit picky or anything but how many stallions have I seen standing over the years in America with brand new names including mares. These were Euro imports and they give the give the registered name in parentheses. So even breeders change names because you now own the horse.
Emotion is fine. But business is business. When business is dine then let the emotion flow. Trust me, I’m a weepy person when it concerns my horses, but over the years here in Ireland I’ve learned it just has no place in conducting professional business. I’m a tough bitch one second and then walk into my house and cry like a baby.
Terri
[QUOTE=MaggieF;6127845]
Backstage MF has a Hanoverian passport with this name. I transferred ownership to Michael sadly. He can’t change his passport name but USEF doesn’t care. They don’t even look at the passports. Backstage MF also has a permenant USEF number. I don’t know if Michael did a name change or a completely new number for Enzo’s Odessey.
Maggie[/QUOTE]
FWIW, he hasn’t listed him yet with USEF - a search for Enzo’s Odyssey turned up no results. And a search under the trainer’s name doesn’t find him, either.
I sympathize with you and understand you wanting the horse to keep the name you gave him, and your farm initials. But I agree with others you will just have to chalk it up as “lesson learned”. Since you are involved with hunters, I am sure you know that the hunter world is notorious for changing horse names with every sale. There is not much anyone can do to prevent it. Yes, you can lifetime register the horse with USEF, and try to put it in your sales contract that the name will not be changed, but even if the original buyer keeps the original name, there is nothing to stop a new owner from changing it.
