paging the lunging gurus

Background: My horse has been laid up for most of this year with lyme - which caused an extra sore back - on top of the kissing spines he already has. Ideally, I’d like to get strength in his back via lunging now. I came across this video online and it is my inspiration/goal -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hokqRs9GbrI

The thing is: this horse is the absolute worst at lunging. I don’t know if it was how he was taught originally that he know needs to unlearn or WHAT.

I can get him to stay out on a circle at the walk only. A faster gait immediately turns into a careening motorcycle. Using the whip at the shoulder, at the haunches, nearly running along myself trying to keep him out - all of it just makes it all worse. I have even tried the theory that maybe if I just let him careen about for a bit, he’ll wear himself out and then be ready to listen. He’s not a small horse, so when he leaps into the air and bolts, I am nearly taken for a ride.

I bought a faux-soa lunging rig as well, but that seems pointless to try until I can get him more responsive to begin with.

Any suggestions/tips/more youtube videos you like? Last night I tried just working on walk/trot transitions and focused more on him listening to me than the egg-shaped “circle.” I’m very much on the verge of just giving up on this horse altogether - I can’t keep doing all of this :cry:

I am not a lunging guru, but I have spent a lot of time learning to lunge properly, then teaching my youngster.

What equipment are you using when you lunge aside from the lunging rig? A cavesson gives much more control than a halter or even a bridle when lunging.

Sadly, too often horses are taught that lunging means “tear around like your hair is on fire” and not that it is another situation where they must pay attention to the person. You need to get his attention on you to be effective.

I would keep it to walk/halt, making sure that WHOA gets a prompt and complete response first. Do lots of directional changes and keep his attention on you at all times. He should be looking at you even on the circle (ears cocked to you). Practice having him follow you in the round pen, then halt him, then follow. Rinse/repeat as often and as much as necessary.

Then same thing with the trot. Make sure WHOA is respected. Work on transitions within the gait as well - a bit easier at the trot, than at the walk.

I would just keep doing these exercises over and over until they seem completely effortless before even trying a canter. Consistency is the most important thing here, along with patience. I would expect re-teaching will take even longer than teaching a youngster, although with a mature horse, you hopefully have a horse with a longer attention span to balance that.

Is there anyone around you that can help you long line him? And definitely start small, walk/halt/walk.

Have you tried double lunging/ ground driving? My guy can get really wound on a single line but is amazing in two lines. Obviously this requires a lot more training on both his and your part but it could be something you work towards.

[QUOTE=Justmyluck;8880047]
Have you tried double lunging/ ground driving? My guy can get really wound on a single line but is amazing in two lines. Obviously this requires a lot more training on both his and your part but it could be something you work towards.[/QUOTE]

Have been thinking about that - wondering if long-lining him would be more effective. Haven’t tried it yet, but I do have someone who might be able to help me get started with that - I have done a lot of lunging, starting many young horses, but have not done long-lining.

You don’t say what conditions you’re lunging under — in an arena with good footing, out in an open field, round pen. To set horses up for success lunging I prefer, as much as possible, to start out in an indoor arena or at least a smaller outdoor with a good fence and minimal distractions. Make sure you stay safe first of all — helmet, gloves, good footwear (no spurs to trip over). If needed, I work in one corner of the arena so that I can make use of the wall as a physiological barrier to slow them down.

Start with lots of walk-halt transitions where you can get him listening well. Make the circle relatively small (10-15 meter) if you have to, in order to keep him under control. Sometimes a long lunge whip is actually too much pressure mentally for them. In that case, I use a dressage whip until they are truly obedient to my voice and body position.

Be very aware of your body position, everything from where you are actually pointing the whip, how high you are holding it, where your eyes and body are pointing, etc. (There are a number of good books with photos that can give you examples and details to remember.)

When he is truly listening at the walk/halt. Teach him to vary the pace, more walk, slow walk, walk and relax (stretch down). Yes, with the tone in your voice they can learn all of that. You may also want to work him over ground poles to keep him focused on where and how he is placing his feet. I’ve noticed that many horses that want to tear around are actually quite unbalanced (and afraid as a result) and unsure of where their feet actually are. (The flight instinct is kicking in.)

Once you’ve got variation of the walk pace and a good halt transition, try some trot. Start by VERY gently asking for an upward transition as he heads toward the wall. The wall will help act as a mental barrier against charging off full tilt. Praise a few steps and ask for a downward transition. Rinse and repeat a scad zillions times until you’ve got that down. Staying on a small circle can help keep them a little slower, but only do short stints. It can be hard on their legs.

Intersperse walk and halt work. Go back to walk work if he gets more and more wound up at trot. Only stay in trot up to a level of energy you are comfortable with controlling. Yes, in the beginning it will all feel out of control, so just very short stints to keep it from escalating. The more wild he wants to be the calmer you need to be.

Once you’ve got trot (and variations of slow trot, more trot, etc.) Try canter when you are ready. I may be weeks or months. Patience will pay off.

I find that short sessions daily (10 -15 mins) help the most for them to remember the expectations and also get over the excitement. You want it to be ho-hum and almost boring. As he calms down, you can increase the size of the circle and work away from the wall more. Good luck. It’s like any other skill, time and practice.

Long lining is the best solution. Definitely get some help to learn how to do it correctly, or else you’ll end up having to undo problems with long lining later, too.

[QUOTE=MissAriel;8880021]
I am not a lunging guru, but I have spent a lot of time learning to lunge properly, then teaching my youngster.

What equipment are you using when you lunge aside from the lunging rig? A cavesson gives much more control than a halter or even a bridle when lunging.

Sadly, too often horses are taught that lunging means “tear around like your hair is on fire” and not that it is another situation where they must pay attention to the person. You need to get his attention on you to be effective.

I would keep it to walk/halt, making sure that WHOA gets a prompt and complete response first. Do lots of directional changes and keep his attention on you at all times. He should be looking at you even on the circle (ears cocked to you). Practice having him follow you in the round pen, then halt him, then follow. Rinse/repeat as often and as much as necessary.

Then same thing with the trot. Make sure WHOA is respected. Work on transitions within the gait as well - a bit easier at the trot, than at the walk.

I would just keep doing these exercises over and over until they seem completely effortless before even trying a canter. Consistency is the most important thing here, along with patience. I would expect re-teaching will take even longer than teaching a youngster, although with a mature horse, you hopefully have a horse with a longer attention span to balance that.[/QUOTE]

Yes, “tear around like hair on fire” seems to be his MO. I am not actively trying to canter yet. The leap-bolt-canter thing I get now assures me we are faaaaaaaaaar from ready for a canter.

I have lunged him in pretty much every set-up: halter, bridle, cavesson, with whip, without whip (!! very much grasping at straws trying to get him to calm himself down). The paying attention thing is a big part of the struggle. He’s a classic over-thinking TB, so we struggle with spooking and boredom in general.

From what I’m dealing with, yes, this is SO.MUCH.WORSE than teaching an unbroken 3 year old.

So tonight’s game plan: we walk. halt. walk. halt. trot. (careen-careen-careen), walk. halt.

Where is the gun-to-head emoji? :lol:

Not a guru nor do I pretend to be, and my methods might not be “traditional” but in regards to horse body language and commands they are pretty “proper”. I had a horse like yours, on the lunge, that taught me a lot! Ditto to above, also try to teach him that just walking on the lunge is okay.

Do a few, at least 4 or however many it takes, lessons where all you do is walk, whoa, and reverse. Maybe try these lessons without a whip paying very careful attention to your body language, keeping your hands low, using your voice for commands. But don’t act “scared” still be the confident leader. If the horse raises his speed make sure you breathe, take a mini-mini step back and if he still doesn’t respond MAKE him whoa, and restart the exercise.

I use the word switch and point with my hand to teach to reverse, usually reinforcing with the whip to point the first few times. But any cue you pick should work for reverse. Don’t be afraid to drop and pick up the whip as needed, just go with the flow a bit.

If your horse needs a distraction to stay focused, add a few ground poles, make sure they are the kind that don’t roll.

Make sure you don’t time these little lunge lessons it could take him 10 minutes to an hour to get it. Obviously you don’t want to fry his brain or strain his legs going in endless circles though. Try to get the horse to move out away from your body, your end goal should be having his ultimate attention on a really big circle.

Once he gets the point of walk, whoa, and reverse start with walk, trot, whoa, reverse. Make sure you do plenty of transitions trot and then go back down to the walk several times in one lesson. Always end on a good Whoa, with the horse being attentive to you.

In the case of my horse, she need a LOT of reassurance, which is why she was running away on the lunge, she wasn’t confident. She learned that first she needed to respect whoa, and second if she had good manners, yes I would stop her give her rub and praise her. I overdid praising her with my voice on purpose, and it worked.

As soon as you get to a canter, don’t let him gallop, keep it at a controlled canter.
While this is often skimmed over I believe that it is very, very important to get the horse to canter from a walk. This gives you more control, and teaches the horse patience. Obviously he can’t be allowed to burst into the canter from a walk, but breathe count to three and ask for the canter, if he bursts away or acts silly, say WHOA make him stop, and go back to the walk. Try again in a few minutes till you get it right.

Also make sure you can get a “kind” cadenced canter out of the trot. Always end lessons that include canter work with at least three rounds at a walk, a whoa, and a pet or rub, and I used to keep treats in my pocket if my mare was acting sweet by the end.

While all may not agree, and each horse is different, I try to keep things simple. I used a simple leather halter, cotton longe line, and lunge whip-as needed. When my mare got a bit more advanced and attentive I actually added her regular bridle underneath the halter without the reins, with the line still attached to the halter. This was to teach her that when she had a bridle and saddle on it was still time for business, everything didn’t change as soon as I bit the bit in her mouth. Every horse is different though, and I am just sharing what worked in my case. :slight_smile:

Lastly, yes it’s going to take a while, it took me working almost every day for about 3 months to see remarkable results, and 8 months to get her to a point where she had super lunging manners, and when she has had a few weeks off, she still needs a few reminder lessons. Keep in mind that some horses hate lunging, and it bores them out of their mind, they would rather just go for a nice slow ride.

Sorry for the book haha :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=fjordmom;8880065]
You don’t say what conditions you’re lunging under — in an arena with good footing, out in an open field, round pen. To set horses up for success lunging I prefer, as much as possible, to start out in an indoor arena or at least a smaller outdoor with a good fence and minimal distractions. Make sure you stay safe first of all — helmet, gloves, good footwear (no spurs to trip over). If needed, I work in one corner of the arena so that I can make use of the wall as a physiological barrier to slow them down.

Start with lots of walk-halt transitions where you can get him listening well. Make the circle relatively small (10-15 meter) if you have to, in order to keep him under control. Sometimes a long lunge whip is actually too much pressure mentally for them. In that case, I use a dressage whip until they are truly obedient to my voice and body position.

Be very aware of your body position, everything from where you are actually pointing the whip, how high you are holding it, where your eyes and body are pointing, etc. (There are a number of good books with photos that can give you examples and details to remember.)

When he is truly listening at the walk/halt. Teach him to vary the pace, more walk, slow walk, walk and relax (stretch down). Yes, with the tone in your voice they can learn all of that. You may also want to work him over ground poles to keep him focused on where and how he is placing his feet. I’ve noticed that many horses that want to tear around are actually quite unbalanced (and afraid as a result) and unsure of where their feet actually are. (The flight instinct is kicking in.)

Once you’ve got variation of the walk pace and a good halt transition, try some trot. Start by VERY gently asking for an upward transition as he heads toward the wall. The wall will help act as a mental barrier against charging off full tilt. Praise a few steps and ask for a downward transition. Rinse and repeat a scad zillions times until you’ve got that down. Staying on a small circle can help keep them a little slower, but only do short stints. It can be hard on their legs.

Intersperse walk and halt work. Go back to walk work if he gets more and more wound up at trot. Only stay in trot up to a level of energy you are comfortable with controlling. Yes, in the beginning it will all feel out of control, so just very short stints to keep it from escalating. The more wild he wants to be the calmer you need to be.

Once you’ve got trot (and variations of slow trot, more trot, etc.) Try canter when you are ready. I may be weeks or months. Patience will pay off.

I find that short sessions daily (10 -15 mins) help the most for them to remember the expectations and also get over the excitement. You want it to be ho-hum and almost boring. As he calms down, you can increase the size of the circle and work away from the wall more. Good luck. It’s like any other skill, time and practice.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! Yes, I use my ring and set up a “wall” of jumps so that I’ve made it into a smaller space - good footing, not too deep.

Another good point about keeping it short, because while he is mature and should have more of an attention span, it really just seems to end up winding him up more, when what I really need him to be doing is dropping his head and stretching!

I would skip the trotting for now… walk/halt/walk/halt/slow walk/fast walk/slow walk/fast walk.

Re-educating the poor lungers is definitely worse than starting from scratch.

I’d do the exercise first leading. Lead him around the circle a few times each direction, doing all the exercises you plan to do that day - halt, fast/slow.

Then progress to parallel leading, where you are no more than a lead rope’s distance away from him - but facing him as if you were lunging instead of forward.

If he starts to get it, you can slowly let more line out until you are stationary in the middle of the circle instead of walking with him on a slightly smaller circle.

If this all goes perfectly on the first day (which it probably won’t), you can go back to regular leading and do some walk/slow trot/walk transitions.

Then the next day, you do those at the beginning, and add them to your parallel lunging, and lunging if everything keeps going well. If it doesn’t, don’t add more.

I avoid lunging anything for more than 20 minutes - less for a less fit horse.

If he is truly a rogue on the lunge line, have you tried some good old showmanship type ground work with him. It may be easier to instill good manners and a “you stay with me at all times” attitude in this closer contact situation. We TB folks don’t do much of it typically, but it has its benefits when done well. MY TB was really a gentleman as far as ground manners, but learning lunging was a bit of “an experience.”

There are plenty of patterns online to occupy and test his mind so that run like a bat out of h… doesn’t enter the mind.

Correct. It sounds like lunging this horse is pointless until he can get better ground manners.

In my mind, lunging or any other activity on the ground is just an extension of ground manners.

Sure, the horse might listen to you while leading … but will they listen when they are 30 feet away from you on a lunge line, or free lunging? Ground manners are ground manners. Period.

[QUOTE=awaywego;8879968]
Last night I tried just working on walk/trot transitions and focused more on him listening to me [/QUOTE]

He should be focused on you at all times. You should be dictating what he does next, based on your commands.

I know a lot of people don’t like him but I think some valuable lessons can be pulled from him --> Clinton Anderson. He’s about controlling the horse, and every part of the horse, even if they are 30 feet away from you on a long rope. That horse is still listening to you.

Granted, I think he can be pretty aggressive at times, and he progresses much faster than most people are going to in one session, BUT he explains things well (what, why, when) and the concept is the same where the horse is expected to listen to the handler.

I think you should start there. Gain better control of your horse, and better ground manners. You won’t be able to acommplish building up his back if you can’t put him on the lunge line! Body control is everything.

Definitely harder than starting a baby.

I have a mare who is a terror on the lunge. Fortunately I’ve never really had to lunge her. But it sure seems like whoever did start her taught her that lunging is for deviant behavior and nothing else. Funny thing is that she’s a dull, dull mare. She does not put even the tiniest ounce of extra energy into ANYTHING she does…except on the lunge line. I often forget about it because the idea of lunging her is so laughable 99% of the time, but every now and again the vet will want to see her move a bit and I pull out the line and then am reminded that she does. not. lunge. like a normal horse.

Anyhow, I have failed with this horse (though to be fair, I haven’t really tried focusing on it either), and now if anything needs to get done with her it’s bareback walking, hand walking, or turn her loose in the ring (which ironically, does not solicit any response other than meandering around and eating the weeds in the corner).

So no advice from me beyond what other people have spelled out above, but I feel your pain!

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8880154]
Definitely harder than starting a baby.

I have a mare who is a terror on the lunge. Fortunately I’ve never really had to lunge her. But it sure seems like whoever did start her taught her that lunging is for deviant behavior and nothing else. Funny thing is that she’s a dull, dull mare. She does not put even the tiniest ounce of extra energy into ANYTHING she does…except on the lunge line. I often forget about it because the idea of lunging her is so laughable 99% of the time, but every now and again the vet will want to see her move a bit and I pull out the line and then am reminded that she does. not. lunge. like a normal horse.

Anyhow, I have failed with this horse (though to be fair, I haven’t really tried focusing on it either), and now if anything needs to get done with her it’s bareback walking, hand walking, or turn her loose in the ring (which ironically, does not solicit any response other than meandering around and eating the weeds in the corner).

So no advice from me beyond what other people have spelled out above, but I feel your pain![/QUOTE]

Teehee. Yep. That’s kind of the deal with this guy - he has never been a horse who needs to be lunged at a show, etc. He gets turned out daily, so generally I just hop on and ride… which makes me wonder if I’d just be more effective working on getting him longer and lower under saddle anyway. That’s a tough one though since he has a big spook in him too so long and low leaves me across the ring when he does his spook/bolt thing. SIGH.

His ground manners - ASIDE from lunging - are really quite good. He is the one who you can count on in the barn to be polite.

Focus and spooking seem to be part of the issues that carry over to lunging from under saddle.

I never did much NH stuff or ever had to and figured it was for those old western ladies who were too afraid of their horses to ride. Even when I bought a 2 year old she was “born broke.” Now I have a very difficult OTTB. He’s anxious, energetic, sensitive, mouthy and opinionated. Once I’m in the saddle things are usually pretty stable but his ground manners have always been less than stellar even with a very firm hand and no coddling. Lunging was a mess.

At the advice of many of the board members on another thread I checked out Warwick Schiller’s videos and applied some of the basics. It did not take long to transform his attitude from tail on fire bouncing around the stall to calm attentive citizen. I also like that his videos show a lot of different horses including some really anxious warmbloods. Check out his video “big kicking Thoroughbred”. Yes it’s a lot of direction changes for the first session or two but once the respect and attentiveness is installed you can keep them going around and light on the line.

[QUOTE=awaywego;8880186]
Teehee. Yep. That’s kind of the deal with this guy - he has never been a horse who needs to be lunged at a show, etc. He gets turned out daily, so generally I just hop on and ride… which makes me wonder if I’d just be more effective working on getting him longer and lower under saddle anyway. That’s a tough one though since he has a big spook in him too so long and low leaves me across the ring when he does his spook/bolt thing. SIGH.

His ground manners - ASIDE from lunging - are really quite good. He is the one who you can count on in the barn to be polite.

Focus and spooking seem to be part of the issues that carry over to lunging from under saddle.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this last makes sense. Horese are more confident when you are leading them. You can get a horse around and over all kinds of obstacles on the trail, if you walk at their head and show the way, compared to if you are on their back. If they see you (or another horse) go through water or over a bridge, they have more faith they aren’t going to die. But once you are up on their back, you disappear and they feel like they need to make the major decisions again.

If he is already good in hand, use that to build up to longing. Put him on one of those 10 foot cotton “horsemanship” leadropes, do walk, trot, halt, back in-hand. Do this until he is doing transitions without you pulling on the halter or using the whip, until he is following your pace and also your voice commands. Once you have a good voice whoa, you can move on to giving him a little more rope, so he can walk, trot, halt, around you on voice commands. You don’t want to work fast or long on a very small circle, but you can also give him the 10 foot length, and then yourself walk in a small circle to the inside, so that he is on a somewhat larger circle.

You need to retrain longing as an exercise in obedience and focus on the handler.

The other part of the equation is that if the horse is feeling weak and unbalanced on a circle, he will rush.

The video link won’t play for me at the moment. But I am guessing that the demo horse they would be using would be a horse that already has good balance and the ability to stretch.

If your horse does not, longing is not the first step.

You can also do a lot of lateral work in hand, shoulder in, turn on forehand and haunches, even half-pass, at the walk in hand. These help the horse use his back and hindquarters and you can do them in hand at the walk very early on, you don’t have to wait until you “need” trot shoulder-in for your dressage test.

You can also teach him to drop to the bit and stretch in-hand before you try this in the saddle.

If you don’t feel safe riding the horse on a long enough rein to allow him to stretch into the bit, then that’s a huge problem for developing his progress. If you have to have him on a short rein to feel safe, then you will never be in a position to build stretch.

Maybe correct ground work and longing will help with this. Or maybe you will need to bring in a trainer who has the skills, the courage, and the sticky seat, to work through this moment with him.

This.
He is not respecting her space.

OP, I am a lunging guru. I know I could teach you to teach your horse that working on the lunge is the same as working under saddle: It’s business and he’s got to take directions from his boss. It sounds like he hasn’t been taught that. He honest to God doesn’t know.

To me, a horse who is working on a longe line (and sometimes I don’t use a lunge this way) should stay between your hand and leg. More specifically, he’s wearing a bridle or a lunging caveson) and you have contact with his mouth; and you have your whip pointed at the point of his butt. His body forms the bottom of a triangle whose sides are the lunge line and the line from the shaft of the whip to his butt. Your belt buckle points to his girth groove when your body position is “neutral.”

The first job for him is to walk and halt (or walk and trot if he’s too worried and needs to breathe… which is what trotting does for them). He’s got to do this within that triangle of “hand” and “leg” that you created for him. Keep the circle small enough that you can touch him with the whip. Keep a feel of his head. The point is for him to 1) learn that lunging requires riding-like obedience; and 2) to make his peace with that.

He might bolt off. Bring him back to the speed and path you want. (This is why he’s in a bridle, and the lunge is attached such that you can’t break it or pull the bridle off.) He might try to stop and face you. Ask him to move on with the whip. Move around to stay behind him a little bit if you need to. Again, the only time he gets peace and praise is when he’s cruising along between your hand and leg/the whip.

Right now, it sounds like he’s actually a bit lost out there on the lunge: He isn’t getting a whole lot of direction so he’s guessing about what you want and that worries him, so he’s running. And the “running” answer really wasn’t right because you stop him hard or reel him back in (which is hard work and scary because his handler is so close!)… so he gets scared by this gentler correction, too.

What takes a bit more to teach in person is how to use the whip, your body position and your feet to start to control his shoulders and hips. The suggestion of good-quality NH groundwork instruction is good. Generally, the idea is to change your horse’s mind about what’s required of him while you are on the ground.

A horse you can lunge or double lunge is really wonderful: You can control a great deal about how they use their body and you can see it all.

Good luck. This problem really is fixable with some education.

OP, I had a horse that had been taught that longeing was all about careening out of control. I decided to be happy with just walking calmly in a circle around me, and would bring him in lathered a half hour later. It was awful. It wasn’t that he hadn’t been taught to longe calmly, he had been deliberately taught not to, which is much harder to unteach.

We ended up having to do more whoa than walk! So like, standing still at a distance in longeing positions, then when he’s just about asleep I’d ask him to walk a step or two and halt again. Stand there until he’s bored and go a few more steps. When that was calm we could walk a few more steps between halts. When we finally got to trot it was on a very small circle and (though I think the most important thing when longeing is prompt transitions because that is what builds the engagement) with this horse I got a forward walk and let it “spill over” into a tiny jog. Just a step, then stop, praise like crazy, and put him away! Try to reepeat the next day if calm enough.

It was ridiculously slow going for the first month, but once he realized that calm was the goal it was like a switch flipped in his brain, and things became quite normal from there.

Keeping the calm was the goal. If calm was lost at any point because I pushed for too much too soon, we were done for the day and it was my fault. Tension to be avoided completely. Good luck!