I would also charge your agent for the time and expenses you wasted seeing the horse.
Well, lawyers out there, isn’t it an implied contract with the “rest of money owed” line?
Would be interesting to know if they cashed your check.
My bet is that once they sell the horse (again) they will mail the OP a check refunding her deposit.
This is a whole lot of nerve. I too think they should be outed by name on this board.
If I read correctly, the deposit was made in cash.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;8153312]
Would be interesting to know if they cashed your check.
My bet is that once they sell the horse (again) they will mail the OP a check refunding her deposit.
This is a whole lot of nerve. I too think they should be outed by name on this board.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, deposit was made in cash. I can say this might have been a mistake I, too, would have made. However, lesson learned for me, no cash deposits!
The best lesson COTH has taught me over the last decade- all paper trails, all the time!!!
Yes she stated the deposit was made in cash. I think in future I would leave a cheque as a deposit to hold the horse. Then the balance paid in whatever form they request. Say cashier’s cheque or bank draft.
I think I would fire off an e-mail stating that paying down a deposit with a contract is binding and the horse can’t be shown to others. YOU.WANT.THE.HORSE!
Also try calling him from a number that he doesn’t recognize maybe he will pick up. I didn’t that with someone who was avoiding me and it was a serious fraud she was attempting to commit. The authorities only had her home number but I had her cell. After I tried once I called again and she answered thinking it was one of her kids. 
Needless, to say the authorities were able to serve her papers prior to her closing her big deal. Her one requirement was to go into the deal debt free. Yet she didn’t pay for the outstanding amount on the item I purchased which was in the $20K range.
Try googling other forms of contact for this seller or agent.
[QUOTE=jennycash;8153183]
I called the sheriffs office and they told me to wait till Monday for non-emergency and writing up a report. Also got all the paperwork for small claims court.
.[/QUOTE]
I am a little confused with who is where but if the owner lives elsewhere such as across a state line and your original contact was for more than $5,000 and was from across a state line …this is Federal not state as it falls into Interstate Commerce…which is a new ball game
Have a friend call and set up a time to go try this horse. Then YOU go…with friends…and a trailer…and either pay for it and go home with horse, or you can deal with them right then face to face re a refund.
You…are getting screwed.
Thank you everyone for the support! There are some things I would have never thought of because of emotions blinding me.
I will get to the post office first thing in the morning! Thank you! Never would have thought of this.
I do not want to put their name currently because if this does have to go to court I don’t want to said to have slandered their business name.
[QUOTE=Kels;8153342]
Unfortunately, deposit was made in cash. I can say this might have been a mistake I, too, would have made. However, lesson learned for me, no cash deposits!
The best lesson COTH has taught me over the last decade- all paper trails, all the time!!![/QUOTE]
Right!? Lesson learned. Hate to say it, but assume you are getting scammed, then no matter what happens you always have a way out. I won’t ever pay cash again.
[QUOTE=TheJenners;8152545]
New ad, posted after your deposit? Call the local police agency NOW. Don’t be a door mat.[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure the police will say, “this is not a police matter”. The police do not get involved in “he said, she said” disputes. I am pretty sure it is a “civil” matter. In other words small claims court depending on the amount or a Civil Law Suite.
[QUOTE=jennycash;8153456]
Thank you everyone for the support! There are some things I would have never thought of because of emotions blinding me.
I will get to the post office first thing in the morning! Thank you! Never would have thought of this.
I do not want to put their name currently because if this does have to go to court I don’t want to said to have slandered their business name.[/QUOTE]
You need to read the “Am I Too Nice/Am I a Pushover” thread. Also, do not buy the horse, get your money back. Lord knows what is going on with that horse. And yes, you should name the agent. After all, you are reporting facts and have not actually said anything derogatory about the agent. No harm, no foul.
I am wondering if the “agent” is really an agent. Perhaps owner is out of the country, “agent” knows this and just pocketed your cash and will disappear when HO returns, who will know nothing of any deal and you won’t have any contract with HO. Or, agent didn’t even tell owner you made a deposit, pocketed cash and will conveniently be unreachable when you try to get the horse for the remaining sum, and HO won’t sell horse for the remaining price.
Are you 100% sure you have the agent’s real name? I might start googling to make sure you could find this person in the event of needing to take legal action.
[QUOTE=jennycash;8153183]
Tried calling owner and agent multiple times yesterday as well. Nada! Finally received a text from selling agent saying people are trying him today and he will call me next week. When I responded with needing my refund, no answer.
I called the sheriffs office and they told me to wait till Monday for non-emergency and writing up a report. Also got all the paperwork for small claims court.
Thank you so much for everyones input. This whole situation has really made horse shopping miserable.[/QUOTE]
Wait what, you put a deposit on the horse what do they mean someone is trying the horse? I think this is all between the OP and the Agent. Who knows if the owners are even aware of what’s going on. Agent took OP’s cash and signed the receipt. OP has no claim on the horse since we don’t know what and even IF there is a relationship between the “agent” and the owner. We’re rooting for you OP.
When purchasing a horse or a number of other things there can be 1 or 2 contracts depending on how the purchase is made.
If the horse is being looked at, vetted and purchased the same day. A well written Bill of Sale is all that is needed.
If the horse is being purchased based on “contingency”. Than an “Offer to Purchase Agreement” or Sale and Purchase Agreement should be drawn up. An Offer to Purchase agreement means you will purchase the horse when the following contingencies are met.
The passing of a pre-purchase examine. This should include ALL the details of this examine and by who. X-rays and how many, flex what type, eyes and heart, suitability for the intended purpose etc. Blood screen, for drugs, transmittable diseases. Etc. Health cert if being shipped to another state. If being shipped out of the country and or imported the horse will pass all of the requirements for import-export.
Insurable for Accident, Sickness and Disease at usual and customary rates. Shipping insurance if that applies.
The horse does not have any “vices” that have not been disclosed. Any that have been disclosed and are acceptable should be included by the seller. And would be excluded from “right of return” and or not following through with the purchase.
The contract should include language that says some like; to bind this contract X amount is deposited with, the seller, the agent, and or the best held in escrow by an attorney or an escrow agent. Refundable within X amount of days if the horse should fail any of the contingencies.
The Seller should include that all of the “contingencies” have to be performed within X amount of days or by X date. If not the seller has the option to rescind the contract and the Purchaser forfeits their deposit and the contract becomes null and void. The Seller reserves the right to extend the contract date at their sole discretion.
Once the horse has passed the contingencies the Purchaser must pay the balance of the purchase price in full within X amount days, or by X date.
There should be language that addresses how the purchase price will be paid, wire transfer, bank check, etc. The purchase will be paid in full as long as the horse is still sound and in good health at the time of pick up. The “pick up date” should be included. The seller should state that if the horses is not moved with X days of payment the Purchaser will be responsible to pay X amount of board per day until the horse is moved. The horse will not be released until all outstanding bills are paid in full and the check clears the bank.
An Offer to Purchase Contract protects both buyer and seller. The Purchaser gets protected from seller’s remorse if someone should come along and offer more money and or the seller decides they don’t want to sell the horse anymore because their kid is having a meltdown over the sale.
The Seller gets some protection if the Purchaser gets buyer’s remorse by being able to keep the deposit. If the horses passed all requirements of purchase and they don’t pay for it. Or they don’t do anything and or drag out the sale.
In addition to the above a Bill of Sale should be drawn up. It should include the name, age and breeding of the horse if known. The seller owns 100% of the horse free and clear, and has the right to sell the horse with no leans and unencumbered. The seller will warrant and defend the “title”.
If an agent is involved their name and compensation should be included. And who’s paying their commission. I like to include language saying no “rebates” by the seller to the Purchaser’s agent have been offered and or paid.
There should be a paragraph addressing “legal venue” if a dispute should arise after the sale. This is usually the Seller’s state and county. This is important.
Then the standard verbiage, the contract can only be changed in writing by both parties, is binding in the state of the sale and is assignable to heirs and or assigns, etc. If being faxed, language agreeing to a “faxed document” should be included.
“Simple” short bills of sale can get very complicated if something should go wrong and or there are “misunderstandings” with the sale. The court will side with the “language” of the contract. Nothing by and large that is implied and or “should” have been understood. But what is “usual and standard” for the industry is taken into consideration. But an “expert” witness may need to be brought in and paid.
The OP stated; “There was a quick contract written by agent. Basically just states I put ___ down and ____ left to pay when I pick horse up”
Then OP says; “The following day I had a few more questions as far as records (vet and show), previous info and what not”
This should have been asked BEFORE you signed the bill of sale paid the deposit. The seller has no legal reason to give you anything more than what you asked for before signing the bill of sale.
I am not defending the seller for their lack of response. I am not an attorney but I have been buying and selling horses for a very long time. VERY expensive ones. Mostly as agent. I have paid my attorney well for a very good education.
You signed a bill of sale, if that bill of sale included what you are asking for before you pay the balance and the seller does not provide what is asked and included in the bill of sale and or offer to purchase contract than you have a right to have your deposit refunded. If not all you have a “right” to is the horse when the balance is paid. If you did not include that the horse must be in the same condition, sound as the day you signed the Bill of Sale and the horse is not technically you have no recourse. You don’t have to pay the balance per-say but you do not have a right of refund. Legally there is a good chance the seller could sue you for breach of contract.
If you do not pay for the horse as stated in the contract just because the seller has not answered your questions after the fact. The seller could sue you for breach of contract. And most likely would win.
Every state is a bit different when it comes to “sale of goods” but most follow what is called the Uniform Commercial Code. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Uniform+Commercial+Code
Any and all correspondence over disputes have to be done in writing and mailed “registered, return receipt”.
The above is not “advise” pre-say, it may or may not apply to the OP’s situation and or in the state the transaction is being made. But I have done business in a lot of states and other countries. Pretty well versed in this stuff. As I said, I’ve paid my attorney for a pretty good legal education. I have not covered all of the “legal language” that should be included on purchase and sales contracts.
The majority of my work in the buying and selling of horses has been as an agent. As an agent I am paid to not only select horses or sell horses for clients but also to handle all of the paper work.
An agent has a lot of legal responsibilities, it called fiduciary obligation. “Horse agents”, also known as a Bloodstock agents don’t have to be licensed in most state if any. But if they refer, represent themselves as an agent that is all that is need for “legalities” to kick in.
Your “agent” sounds like an amateur.
Based on what you have written if you want the horse go and get it. Show up with a certified bank check and or cash. Get a receipt for payment also. If the seller does not give you the horse and or has sold the horse then you have legal recourse. For more than just your deposit.
To be clear I am not siding with the seller. I am not siding with either. We are only hearing one side.
You are SO correct Gumtreen…which is why I have a Buyers Agreement of Sale like a Real-estate form…it covers both parties…spells out who is responsible,for,what and when …with a NON Refundable deposit pending completion of sale…and or a small NON Refundable Fee,that gives Buyer 72 hours to in essence Freeze horse off market while they still shop…but releases horse if they decide not to pursue…OP you were screwed royally…no other nice way …
Wow, I had no idea that putting a deposit on the horse was supposed to prevent it from being sold. It happens all the time out here, even to me.
I thought the deposit was just to let the seller know you were serious about buying, even if it says you will pick the horse up on X date and pay off the rest. I was always told the seller could do what they want until the horse was paid off.
^^^^ uhhhh no. The deposit is to hold your interest in the horse, usually for a predetermined amount of time in order to complete your vet exams or arrange pick up
[QUOTE=gumtree;8153553]
I am pretty sure the police will say, “this is not a police matter”. The police do not get involved in “he said, she said” disputes. I am pretty sure it is a “civil” matter. In other words small claims court depending on the amount or a Civil Law Suite.[/QUOTE]
This is not true. My local police assisted me with an insane person who bought something from me on Craigslist. At the very least the local police\sheriff should be willing to file the complaint of theft. (The OP says she’s called once, so it’s good she’s got this in progress.)
They may ask for copies of the communications and transaction. And YOU should get a copy of the police report that’s filed. Get that ASAP so you can review it immediately for any mistakes. The officer may insert opinion into it, which is proper, but you need to make sure that the facts were recorded accurately NOW than be surprised by something at court time. The department may charge a fee for obtaining your copy. (In my line of work I deal with stolen equipment and we always get copies of the reports, and about half the time there’s a correction needed, anything from phone numbers to time of theft.)
In my case, the officer went a step further and actually called the guy who was harassing me. Harassment stopped. Most likely he did that because there were threats by email, so that may not be warranted in this case. But at least the report should be helpful, as being a public record of the event.
Good luck!
[QUOTE=ladymcts;8154128]
This is not true. My local police assisted me with an insane person who bought something from me on Craigslist. At the very least the local police\sheriff should be willing to file the complaint of theft. (The OP says she’s called once, so it’s good she’s got this in progress.)
They may ask for copies of the communications and transaction. And YOU should get a copy of the police report that’s filed. Get that ASAP so you can review it immediately for any mistakes. The officer may insert opinion into it, which is proper, but you need to make sure that the facts were recorded accurately NOW than be surprised by something at court time. The department may charge a fee for obtaining your copy. (In my line of work I deal with stolen equipment and we always get copies of the reports, and about half the time there’s a correction needed, anything from phone numbers to time of theft.)
In my case, the officer went a step further and actually called the guy who was harassing me. Harassment stopped. Most likely he did that because there were threats by email, so that may not be warranted in this case. But at least the report should be helpful, as being a public record of the event.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
You are talking about a completely different “scenario”. IMO does not apply to what is going on here. In your situation harassing, threatening phone calls are very much a police matter.
Just because the seller has not returned the buyers phone calls doesn’t constitute “fraud” at this point. We are only working off of what the OP is telling us. We have not heard the seller’s side. Understand I am playing devil’s advocate. The seller may not be returning the buyers calls because the buyer is being in their mind unreasonable. Maybe the buyer is being a jerk, We don’t know exactly what has been said and or wasn’t said. The OP did not supply the exact wording of the Bill of Sale. I just dealt with one recently and posted in this thread what transpired. Posted the buyer’s emails to me.
Maybe the seller got a better offer and sold the horse. If that’s the case then the buyer certainly has the right to get a refund assuming there was not breach of contract. Depending on the wording of the Bill of Sale the buyer may have legal recourse for damages. Most don’t pursue this due to the high cost.
I did not say it don’t bother calling the police. I said at this point I doubt very much the police will get involved. But they will write and file a complaint. Which may be useful if legal recourse comes into play.
As I said above unless there is language in the Bill of Sale, IMO and experience a Bill of Sale is the final document that gives title to the horse. As I said above if the sale has contingencies then an Offer to Purchase or a Purchase and Sale contract should have been used. When the horse passes the “contingencies” payment is made and a Bill of Sale is signed by both parties. This is how it works legally. All the “I” dotted and the “ts” crossed. This “saying” means the contract was properly written and will hold up in a court of law. Poorly written, vague, full of misspelling contracts can and will be dismissed by the courts.
As I said in my earlier post the OP should call, text, the seller and say they are coming to pick up the horse on X date. Even better send an overnight Express mail letter that also requires a signature of receipt.
If the OP does not get a response just go and try and pick up the horse on the date as stated in letter, voice mail, text. If the buyer refuses to complete the deal and or does not refund the deposit right then and there NOW we are talking fraud. Bring a friend and have them video the confrontation. The go to the local police department and file a complaint. Give a call to the local DA’s office and find out what recourse they have.
Until the Buyer tries to complete the deal it is still “open ended” and a “he said, she said” situation. This is all just general “advise”. If the buyer really wants to know the “legalities” they need to call an attorney.
Based on “face value” of what the OP has told us it sounds like the Seller found a more “willing” buyer. If so I don’t understand why they just don’t refund the deposit and everyone can more on. I believe this falls under “theft by deception”. Not something that is not taken lightly.
Unfortunately this kind of nonsense happens from time to time. Far more so with inexpensive horses and “hobby” buyers and sellers.
I and I am sure lots of others always honor the contract and or a “hand shake”. I have been offered far more than the sales price by someone who looked at a horse but did not commit. When they call and find out the horse is under contract I have been offered substantially more money. I have ALWAYS honored my word, written or not. I have pissed off some very important buyers and or agents by not selling the horse to them. I have said “what if you were on the other side”?
A word to the wise when going to buy a horse. Bring a well written Offer to Purchase Contract and a Bill of Sale with you. Contracts are negotiable. A reputable seller will draw one up that is fair to both sides.
A buyer has a tendency to write one that is more in their favor. In any case negotiate the terms and rewrite it. Just about everybody has a word processor and a printer these days.
I believe Legal Zoom sells Bill of Sale and other horse/livestock contracts. Worth the 20 bucks.
Sorry to be long winded but having read a lot of the comments it is clear that people don’t understand these things can be far more complicated than “face value”.
