Thanks! Mya is a very special girl. Absolutely the sweetest dog I have ever owned. (And therefore a terrible watch dog.)
[QUOTE=belambi;4094901]
As in the Australian Simeon Sha??
if so…well then the breeding must be amazing!![/QUOTE]
As in THE Simeon Shai, yes. And thank-you! 
So I have a question for sonesta you breed what is essentially to the masses an appy warmblood. You stand a leopard stallion. How popular are spots like that in the hunter/eq/jumper or dressage ring even in eventing? I personally know many different obscure-ish breeds of warmbloods yet have never seen or met a Knapstauper (forgive my spelling) in any barn or at any A rated show I have been to.
Most people I know would never buy a horse marked like yours because for what they show in they view it as unacceptable. I know some trainers who would not let a client buy one for fear of how it would look (not something I agree with)
So my question is how is breeding what essentially is a very loudly colored stock horse worse than breeding an equally loud hunter/jumper/dressage horse? Colored horses have always been popular in stock breeds (and for trail ridding homes) and often the louder the better, among a large set of the population. If you dont agree stock shows like bling bling take a look at their out fits some time.
So I guess my point is quality held equal(all horses are horses worthy of being breed for their respective breed) there is more of a market for a pintalosa than there is for your spotted WB.
mew, I’m not completely sure I understand your questions.
The Knabstrupper is NOT an Appaloosa/WB. It is a Danish warmblood breed that happens to have spots like the American Appaloosa. But they are bred with VERY stringent inspection and approval requirements and are not in ANY way mutts.
There are still very few Knabstruppers in North America, but most of them ARE, in fact, competing in the “A” shows both in dressage and show jumping and hunters.
In Florida, there are two - Frej, that competes in the big show jumper classes, and Ikaros, that competes in the hunters. In California, there is Colorado Skrodstrup (Fable) that competes in the A shows in show jumping AND in PSG in dressage. In Virginia and elsewhere on the east are Cita Normark and Xavoy Middlesom, both of which compete in the BIG dressage shows. Majco Thunders Hattrick is competing at 4th level dressage in the big shows on the East coast. Many others are younger and just now entering the show rings.
The judges and the crowds seem to love them.
Name me even ONE pintaloosa competing at those levels.
The point was about color and the prejudices that go with them in certain circles.
Name one Silver Buckskin Dun competing at a high level of Showjumping or Dressage - probably can’t. Not because the color isn’t favored, or is strongly disfavored, it’s because there aren’t that many of them to begin with, so of course the chances of one competing at a high level is dramatically lowered.
So no, no one can name a pintaloosa competing at a high level.
I didn’t take mew’s post to mean that a Knap is an appy of any sort - to the masses though, it is - appy spots, they don’t know that they are not of the same breeding as the Nez Perce appys, or the QH-with-spots appies. To some, appy spots are appy spots, that’s all they know.
It’s one thing for someone to be breeding for a specific color/pattern AND aiming it at a specific discipline, and another to be breeding firstly for quality, with the color being a secondary consideration (as appears to be the issue of the OP) when it’s an amateur breeding their next horse.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;4115161]
mew, I’m not completely sure I understand your questions.
The Knabstrupper is NOT an Appaloosa/WB. It is a Danish warmblood breed that happens to have spots like the American Appaloosa. But they are bred with VERY stringent inspection and approval requirements and are not in ANY way mutts.
There are still very few Knabstruppers in North America, but most of them ARE, in fact, competing in the “A” shows both in dressage and show jumping and hunters.
In Florida, there are two - Frej, that competes in the big show jumper classes, and Ikaros, that competes in the hunters. In California, there is Colorado Skrodstrup (Fable) that competes in the A shows in show jumping AND in PSG in dressage. In Virginia and elsewhere on the east are Cita Normark and Xavoy Middlesom, both of which compete in the BIG dressage shows. Majco Thunders Hattrick is competing at 4th level dressage in the big shows on the East coast. Many others are younger and just now entering the show rings.
The judges and the crowds seem to love them.
Name me even ONE pintaloosa competing at those levels.[/QUOTE]
I in no way was trying to say Knapstrapers are mutts at all. They are very clearly a Wb to those in the know. My point was simply that they have the same spots as an appy which some people find offensive the same way that a pinto WB has the same spots a APHA horse does. (this is for general standing there looking a horse purposes not genetics or what have you).
I guess since there are a few out there I haven’t had the luck to run into one yet. I think my question is since they are not a new breed and have been around for ages and it would seem by the individuals you posted they are wonderful versatile horses do you think it is their spots that keep them from being as popular as say your “normal” wb (hano, dutch ect.?)
personally…i would always choose an appaloosa warmblood ahead of a knabstrupper… simply because knabs werent available in Australia till last year… and a few of us have been breeding app wbs for 20 or so years…and having quite a lot of success with them… For me its a case of 'better the devil I know!!
To get the whole picture…does somebody have a link to sales prices and RNAs?
Dee
Pintaloosa
I agree that producing offspring that is not able to be registered is not the best idea.
I must say, however, that there is an established registry for Pintaloosas. I know that the conversation here is mostly geared towards full sized horses but the American Miniature Horse has been safely bred in every color including pintaloosa. The miniature horse has two registries, the AMHA and the AMHR. The “A” association is for 34" and under and the “R” association has “a”, “b”, and “c” classifications for height. In both registries the pintaloosa color pattern is highly valued for its beauty and rarity. Though this only works because breeders can experiment with color inside of the registered horses available without the worry that their horses will be disqualified due to color. There is not a color disqualification on registered minis.
Update
I haven’t been on here in forever and I’m not sure anyone who posted on here will see this update. However, I wanted to follow up on my baby. Despite the many disgusted and snotty comments I received I want to clarify that I never bred for color. I bred for quality performance and temperament and I see nothing wrong with that. I am not a breeder, nor do I plan on producing a new “race” of horse. So with that said. My wonderful little mix has turned out far better than I could have imagined. She attended her first show a couple of weekends ago placing 2nd in a large Halter Conformation (western halter, although I ride her English) class against pure bred paints :winkgrin: and even some of her half brothers and sisters. Later in the day she placed 1st in a large class of 20 some horses and ponies, some very nice hunters I may add. I am especially proud of my little power pony, at the age of almost 4 she is 14.1hh. Although she has only jumped a few times many of my connections have made it very clear her calling is in the jumping ring. Everyone enjoys riding and being around her. She has such a powerful personality and is one of the nicest horses I’ve had a pleasure of owning. I may also add regarding those who stated she would be a disservice to the horse market I have had several offers on her all of which I have denied. I have a link to several pictures of her through the years and I may also add I don’t think she has turned out “mutty” or “ugly” at all. In fact, the judges can’t take their eye off her. 
Just born, on the ground
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/babybee.jpg
Trying to nurse Momma
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/littlelibb.jpg
A month of two
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/babye.jpg
A year and a half
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/halfayear.jpg
Halter Class
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/082ed.jpg
Halter Class 2
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/080ed.jpg
The Second Place
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/087ed.jpg
I love spots!! She is beautiful!
I’ve been buying Las Rocosa Aussies from the Hartnagles for decades. They are very careful and responsible breeders. Unlike a lot of the newer aussie breeders. The Hartnagles breed for performance and conformation, not just for looks. (And yes, I’ve bought the blue merles for decades because that is my favorite color. After breeding and conformation of course.)
I also have owned 3 pintos (all tobianos) in my lifetime. All were chosen first for their conformation. As Robert Robold says, you can’t ride color. But my Hessen WB (grandson of Samber and great-grandson of Inschallah) does have the breeding and the conformation first. In fact, his dapple grey and white color was not a plus when I was looking at him. His perfect bascule and his floating trot were pluses, however.
Don’t breed for color unless you own a horse with great performance and great conformation.
Hi gardencreek! I’m so glad you came back with this! What a lovely lovely filly you have! I dare anyone to disparage your girl
I think this more maximally expressed Tobi pattern is probably among the best situations for a pinto/appy mix. There is just about nothing different looking here than if this was a Roan pinto. You’ll see much more evidence of the appy characteristics in her face as she ages. She looks like she’ll varnish out and look more like a gray pinto than anything (except for her face, appy-knowledgeable folks will recognize that).
Congratulations on a nice girl 
I would love to see more pictures of her
I had to go back and re-read this thread, just for giggles, and wow… :no:
Now that it’s resurrected, expect for the arguments to continue
I think she is adorable. I have an Ap/Trak cross whom I adore. :). He has the spots.
We had one of those born last year in 2011…my 16H sabino Paint stallion (3/4 TB) jumped the gate and bred Mike’s 15.1H varnish Appy polo mare.
The filly:
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view¤t=90c59ca5.jpg#!oZZ143QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj276%2Fcamohn03%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D1ab388eb.jpg
she sold as a weanling and was 14H at 12 mos so looks like she will end up about 16H like her sire.Unfortunately Pintoloosas can also go hideously wrong for markings. The ugliest horses I ever saw color wise was a Leopard App/Tobi cross. The front half looked tobi and and back half looked leopard app. it quite literally looked like someone took 2 horses and put the front half of one and the back half of the other together.
Why is the chain run under the jaw…is that customary in halter classes for a young horse?
Not being critical (lovely horse BTW), but why the extra “control” with the chain…unless control is an issue. I’ve never run a chain under a youngsters jaw (or over the nose either, unless it was a young stallion).
Curious.
[QUOTE=sid;6318423]
Why is the chain run under the jaw…is that customary in halter classes for a young horse?
Not being critical (lovely horse BTW), but why the extra “control” with the chain…unless control is an issue. I’ve never run a chain under a youngsters jaw (or over the nose either, unless it was a young stallion).
Curious.[/QUOTE]
Customary in Stock type halter classes.
"I think this more maximally expressed Tobi pattern is probably among the best situations for a pinto/appy mix. There is just about nothing different looking here than if this was a Roan pinto. You’ll see much more evidence of the appy characteristics in her face as she ages. She looks like she’ll varnish out and look more like a gray pinto than anything (except for her face, appy-knowledgeable folks will recognize that). "
Yes I believe she will varnish out some more. About the Tobi, her father is Homozygous for the Tobiano pattern and just before she was born was tested again and also contains the creme gene. Certain times in the year, given I keep her out of the sun, she looks lighter and others darker. I have more pictures of her that I will post soon, she has the cutest spotted butt. Funny thing is some of her brothers and sisters
have similar coloring due to the paw print patterns and some even have roaning around their paint patterns which have made many people think she is just straight paint. Personally I think tobiano and tovero paints are much prettier, so I am glad I knew what kind of pattern I was getting. I have more pictures posted below. and… If anyone has anything else to say given the paintaloosa breeding topic, well, why beat a dead horse?
As for the chain, hackinaround’s answer was correct.
This is her father
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/157c.jpg
Her Grandfather
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/color_dynamics_4.jpg
Her Half Brother
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/carol_cvphc_2011.jpg
Trotting
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/trotting.jpg
Just starting to canter
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/canter.jpg
Indoor arena riding
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/libbindoor.jpg
Spotted Butt
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac231/gardencreekfarm/spotbutt.jpg
[QUOTE=Tango14;4365717]
Hmm, interesting. I find the black is more vibrant and visible. Oh well that puts paid to that theory;)
I am very happy to read that there are so many chestnut fans though. It does seem kind of silly to write a horse off simply because of its color…[/QUOTE]
Just wanted to LOL at Tango14’s past, his or her incessantly bashing rants on the oddly pattern mixture and “foreseeingly” doomed future of any horse which contains it. Yet … she/he states , “it does seem kind of silly to write a horse off simply becuase of its color…” on another forum…hmmm. Im glad he/she was finally able to come to this conclusion and see a horse for what it really should be based, Quality. BRAVOOOOO
What I failed to write in the reasons for breeding was the “added bonus”. COLOR was and never will be my FIRST reason of breeding, why would I spend time and money on a horse with crappy conformation just to get color. Seriously? What good is a no good horse to me? This stallion is proven performance, located near by, and produces champion offspring. That being said. Just because you think its a hideous irresponsible cross, and are so afraid of having one mutt that might possibly kick your purebred registered horses’ behinds does not make it wrong. Because quite honestly all you seemed to be trying to convince everyone is to believe what you believe and that you are RIGHT.
Kings Witchdoctor
I think your filly is adorable and congratulations on her success. Does anyone know what became of her sire? I can’t seem to find any current information on Kings Witchdoctor.
