You would pronounce it “HORSE MURDERER”. What part of “that man should never be allowed around an animal again as long as he lives” don’t you understand. This isn’t a train wreck thread, it’s an atomic bomb.
RUN AWAY FROM THIS SICK MAN. I smell liberal heart bleeding all over the stalls.
I was trying to hold back the obscenities on this. I’ll stop typing now before it gets an X rating.
[QUOTE=CuriosoJorge;2661940]
Saddletramp, I know the other person you mentioned who is still in business. I wouldn’t do business with Paul, and I wouldn’t do business with her, either. Plenty of people remember those who got caught. Those of us who have been in the business for awhile have heard plenty of rumor and innuendo about people who should have been caught, too. For newbies, threads like this serve a valuable service to educate them.[/QUOTE]
Well said, CJ. If we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it.
[QUOTE=Hopeful Hunter;2660222]
NO.
There are some actions which cannot be forgiven. And there are many things which should never, ever be forgotten.
There is a quote, I believe it was originally stated about the Holocaust, that says something along the lines of “all that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.” I’d amend that a bit, to “for good people to forget and do nothing.”
THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR EVERY DECISION YOU MAKE IN LIFE… Kill a horse for money? Don’t be shocked if people won’t accept you back in the business with open arms.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this post. Forgive, yes (in some situations…well, actually not in this situation) Forget… NEVER.
I just wished that the governing bodies would take their job a bit more seriously. If proven abuse like this would include a lifetime ban on being around horses it would be a better place. If their excuse is that there are not enough funds for investigations I happily would pay an extra $50 per year and am sure plenty of others would be prepared to do that to.
Oh, I forgive him. Don’t actually have anything against him personally. Wish him a decent life.
BUT NO WAY should our national regulating body allow him to serve as a teaching professional when the first thing they are supposed to stand for is, above all, the welfare of the horse. Not no way. Not no how. I don’t think we should forget that.
You know…I started riding Hunters in New England just about the time this was going down. There were rumors he was…well…let’s just say not the poster boy some claim.
A MAN SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE COMPANY HE KEEPS.
Is PV offering you serious discounts to compensate for his reputation? Is this (financilally) the only chioce you have for a trainer…? Is this the only choice you have for quality training?IF I HAD A CHOICE, I wouldn’t even consider this as an option. Do YOU (who train with him) understand the consequenses? No one who is a true horseman/woman will EVER respect him/you. It has been 23 years since he did this and we’re still talking about it. Do you think that “Yeah, I can learn from him a while, and then move on”?.. Who will want you???
As an adult (with a full sense of morality and a knowledge of consequenses), I wouldn't touch this with a longe whip.You know what? I probably fall under the category of “bleeding heart liberal,” and I still think that anyone who does horse-related business with Valliere is making a grave mistake.
Not because I think what he did was wrong (even though I do think that), but because of what it means to associate yourself with a “professional” like that.
We should go to trainers to make us better horsemen, not just to make us better riders. Not matter how successful an eq coach PV has been, the fact remains that anyone who would take such a cavalier attitude towards the life of any horse forfeits his right to call himself a horseman. I don’t even think it’s a matter of who did the actual killing, what method was used, how much money was gained, or how many times it happened – it’s the idea that underlies those facts, the idea that horseflesh is expendable and that prestige and commercial success are more important than the horses themselves.
No, I am not hopelessly naive and yes, I do understand that there’s a lot of corruption out there and that PV was certainly not the only offender. But given the enormous talent pool out there, why on earth would you patronize someone like this? Why would you support it implicitly? It boggles my mind. Not providing financial support to someone like this is a small step one can take towards trying to improve the sport, but people seem to find it easier to look the other way, much like those people who look the other way, rather than alerting the steward, when they see abuse at a show.
I don’t care whether you’re a top-flight trainer, a working cowboy, or a backyard rider – caring for and respecting horses is what makes you a horseman. Anyone who argues otherwise is seriosuly deluded, in my opinion.
And for those of you write about how much PV has taught you – is it all just about the riding, or is it about the horsemanship?
[QUOTE=IveGotRhythm;2661976]
A MAN SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE COMPANY HE KEEPS.
Is PV offering you serious discounts to compensate for his reputation? Is this (financilally) the only chioce you have for a trainer…? Is this the only choice you have for quality training?IF I HAD A CHOICE, I wouldn’t even consider this as an option. Do YOU (who train with him) understand the consequenses? No one who is a true horseman/woman will EVER respect him/you. It has been 23 years since he did this and we’re still talking about it. Do you think that “Yeah, I can learn from him a while, and then move on”?.. Who will want you???
As an adult (with a full sense of morality and a knowledge of consequenses), I wouldn't touch this with a longe whip.[/QUOTE]
Actually - since I worked there, I have had nothing but positive experiences in finding new places to work and ride. I worked for a Grand Prix rider when I left Acres and they were happy to hire me knowing I came from there. I’m now working at a local barn helping a friend manage her new facility…
They knew I would be a great groom - he and his staff taught me well.
I know this bugs a lot of you, but it’s no secret that his staff are hard workers and perfectionists. We’re excellent horse people, and we make great staff.
[QUOTE=slainte!;2661992]
Actually - since I worked there, I have had nothing but positive experiences in finding new places to work and ride. I worked for a Grand Prix rider when I left Acres and they were happy to hire me knowing I came from there. I’m now working at a local barn helping a friend manage her new facility…
They knew I would be a great groom - he and his staff taught me well.
I know this bugs a lot of you, but it’s no secret that his staff are hard workers and perfectionists. We’re excellent horse people, and we make great staff.[/QUOTE]
I have no doubt if you're working as a groom, you love and know horses. The point is that you are working with some one whose ethics are , well, questionable doesn't even cut it does it, what does it say for your character? Quite frankly, this scares the HELL out of me. I wouldn't want anyone who had worked for him handling my horse.
Then again, I’d never put my horse in that position
Just a difference in morals, I guess.Here’s the part of the whole thing that always gives me a little chuckle: For PV, there wasn’t even “honor among thieves.” He’s the one who wore a wire and ratted out his “friends” to save his own @$$. He couldn’t even exhibit a little integrity towards his horse-killing buddies. That’s really rich.
On a more serious note, I don’t understand the lack of a lifetime ban for this PV character. Other professional organizations/governing bodies/government bodies kick out their bad apples (at least the ones who get caught, anyway). For example, Mike Milken (junk bond king) will never be able to get a license to deal in securities again, and Dennis Nifong (runaway DA in the Duke lacrosse fabricated rape case) is now disbarred and will never be able to practice law again.
Why is the name of the woman professional who was involved being kept a secret?
[QUOTE=alterbecauseimacoward;2659246]
So I’ve been searching online for stuff about Paul Valliere, because I’ve been taking a few lessons with him and wanted to know more about this whole horse-killing thing. Of course the Chronicle forums came up in my search, and y’all clearly really hate him. My question for you is: why? I mean, yes, it’s terrible that he had a horse electrocuted for the insurance money. But it was a mistake made like 10 years ago. So what exactly is the problem with him?[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding!!!
Who the hell cares??? You are either going to associate with criminals or you are not. VERY clear dividing line here…
[QUOTE=To the MAX;2662041]
Why is the name of the woman professional who was involved being kept a secret?[/QUOTE]
Several names were mentioned/involved: Donna and Buddy Brown, a Cheska, Barney Ward, of course PV, and the Lindemanns, (edited to remove name because I’m not 100% sure he was in it too). There were several others but the book Hot Blood has a great timeline in the back of it along with a list of the cast of idiots.
I have the book at home, I’ll check it and post the list tomorrow.
I was actually referring to Dana Tripp Waters.
I think Dana competes as an amateur.
Yes, but she got in trouble for her professional activities - forging Coggins and health certificate paperwork.
<Saddletramp wrote:
Please come to some kind of order here. Paul Valiere did not come up with this, he was not the ring leader. He subscribed to a “service” being offered by others. The problem here was certainly greed, but not for insurance money, not at first. He and SEVERAL many others sold horses to clients at inflated prices on their reputations, that these were fine show horse prospects. Horses turned out to have problems: no lead change, to hot, hard to ride, ect. As more and more of these situations arose a “service” was created. No way to get the money out of these horses so insure them, you know the rest. >
No one said he was smart enough to come up with the idea. but that he decided to “suscribe to the service” offered is the problem. I can not believe that he couldnt have sold the ‘problem children’ horses to perhaps a more experianced riders. Or maybe put more miles on them before trying to sell them at all. but If I suscribed to Pv’s thoughts and had the offer to suscribe to the service offered to him for my problem child horse and trust me no leads, a bit hot, and hard to ride would be a dream compaired to what my first mare was like I would have had the morals and ethics to say NO to the offer even if I was down to eating air 3x’s a day.
PV only reason behind what he suscribed to is greed nothing else Im sure he could have found a sutiable rider for the problem child horse(s) Im sure he did not necessarly have to have the insurance coverage ranges he had on it/them Im sure it could have been reduced some to spare expenses if money was that tight. ther are other ways to save/ earn/ make/ ect money over kiling a horse and committing fraud.
Now I couldnt pick the guy out of a crowd of 1 but it would be a cold day in H#$& before I would send him one ounce of business or support him being allowed anywhere near horses or horse shows. there is no logical reason for anyone with functioning grey matter between their ears to support this man because I can not believe there is noone else in their area who is not as good if not better than he is that you can actualy trust your horse with. You don’t live in East Podunk Ohio where 4h reigns and the closest thing to a trainer is what wanders into the ring during the county fair…
While Donna Brown was clearly involved, I don’t believe Buddy was ever associated with any of it.
[QUOTE=Janet;2662161]
While Donna Brown was clearly involved, I don’t believe Buddy was ever associated with any of it.[/QUOTE]
Aren’t/weren’t they married at the time? That’s a pretty close association in my book.
