Paul valliere

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=anthem35;2663625]

I can continue to stone the man, or let him try to do the world some good. I think giving someone a chance to make amends is a much better option.[/QUOTE]

A man who continues to push the rules and disrespect the system by which he supposedly agreed to be governed is not doing the “world some good.” I don’t know the man nor do I even ride in the h/j world but his actions post suspension as described on this and other threads indicate this man has no compunction to ignore what is right and will always focus on only what is right for him.

As shown by Janet, it is obvious he and his barn are in violation of USEF bylaws even now. If he had ethics or was a person of integrity he would not be doing such things. No, he has not learned from his previous actions. He is just more careful about covering things up.

Reed

[Ghazzu]

@xegeba;2663460

Do I need to tell you how I felt the first time I heard a trainer refer to a clients horse as “excellent ALPO”? …

Oh, for pity’s sake.

I used to know a girl who had a horse she adored who would regularly threaten him with a can of Alpo (literally–she had one in her tack trunk, and would pull it out and wave it in his general direction.)

In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn, “It was a joke, son.”

[Midge]

[QUOTE=Lessonlady;2662832]
Even murderers of people who go to jail get out sometimes. How long does he need to pay his debt? How can he prove he’s a changed man? He is and was a talented horseman who made a huge error in judgement and regrets it big time. What should he do for a living now? Flip burgers?[/QUOTE]

Oh, no. As he has so ably proven, Paul is allowed to continue to make a very comfortable living in the horse business. He can train, buy sell, etc. I just don’t think ‘forgiveness’ is equal to memebershi[ in an organization whose mission statement is all about the horse.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=LovesIt;2660162]
no he didnt, he actually cared, and left one of his lessons the next day to come and personally talk to the vet about the horse to make sure he was ok
forgive and forget people, please[/QUOTE]

Ok so he had nothing to gain by the death of the horse except the loss of lesson income. Well I guess that answers that.

[Janet]

@Jaegermonster;2663925

His students are allowed to show he just can’t be on the grounds. Even though he is doing it by cell phone, guess who has the burden of proof? Not PV.

On the contrary, according to GR702.1 h and i

h. Exhibiting any horse while in the care, training or custody of a suspended trainer.
i. Riding, exhibiting, coaching or training for the benefit, credit, reputation or satisfaction of a suspended person.

both the rider/student, and whoever is coaching them/ signing their entry form at the show would appear to be in violation of the rules.

Proving it is something else.

[Midge]

@anthem35;2662968

.

But at this point, I just see a man who F@#$^ed up…BIG…and who actually IS SORRY…and HAS been paying the price for his crime, and will be until the end of time, who has asked for the chance to make amends.

I am glad he is sorry and I am glad he is making amends. He has a thriving business, so as far as I am concerned, he should accept the fact that he’s lucky the judge didn’t ban him from ever being around horses. Many, many professional organizations ban members for life for not playing by the rules. Realtors, Accountants, Doctors, Lawyers can all be banned for life for screwing up They can never practice their chosen profession again. PV can continue to work in his chosen profession.

Just don’t make me watch him stand at the ingate and send a kid into the ring to compete in the ASPCA McClay class.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=Janet;2663009]
Um, I don’t think there were convictions (or even allegations) of horses being killed against the owner’s wishes.[/QUOTE]

Maybe not the daddy’s wishes, but certainly the child’s wishes, should they ever find out their horse that died was helped on his way.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=slainte!;2662499]
Something I always find very interesting about this is that over the internet, everyone hates him. But if his banner is set up a horse show, a bunch of people swing by the aisle and ask “when’s he getting reinstated? how is he? it’s about time he comes back to the show”.

I’m not making this up. I just feel that if you’re all so against his business, I would expect more out-rage AT the horse shows themselves. The scrims and coolers are layed over the horses that say “AWF” on them… Why don’t more people announce their unhappiness at the sight of it?

Because when I don’t like someone - I’m not friendly towards them or their followers…[/QUOTE]

Ok I would most likely just not go in that area unless there was something over there that I absolutely needed (like the bathroom or the show secretary’s office). So I don’t think the “welcoming committee” you are describing is an accurate representation of the showing community.

And I have to ask, can someone explain to me what are he and his banner doing at horse shows? Why is this an issue? Aren’t Acres Wild Farm, PV and it’s horses banned?

[anthem35]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2663869]
All I can say is WOW… I have looked at these rules before… wonder what the PV crowd will say now, after they are done wiggling in their chairs…[/QUOTE]

Why would I be wiggling in my chair?

I am coached by a team of extremely competent trainers who have the full accreditation of USEF, as well as a well respected presence at the in gate.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Janet;2663943]
On the contrary, according to GR702.1 h and i

both the rider/student, and whoever is coaching them/ signing their entry form at the show would appear to be in violation of the rules.

Proving it is something else.[/QUOTE]

that was kind of my point. They can always show with another trainer. I have done that before, gone to a show with a different trainer because my regular trainer was busy or whatever, and the other trainer just signs the entry. I don’t believe he would be that blatant as to be signing entry forms, but maybe he would. If he is, I really have lost all hope for the USEF.

[shmeg_33]

Janet…

…I like how you think…

…this just opened up a WHOLE new door in this already very amusing thread. :winkgrin:

And am I the only one still itching to know what that poster was talking about when he/she posted about the trailer going off the cliff earlier on in the thread???

[Hopeful_Hunter]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;2662496]
Interesting read…

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/cases/cruel/ward.htm[/QUOTE]

Very! Especially this part:

"Plaintiff has the right to keep unsavory people away from the horse shows that it oversees, even if only to prevent the appearance of impropriety (see, Matter of Tappis v New York State Racing and Wagering Bd., Harness Racing Div., 36 N.Y.2d 862, 864 [1975] ). Defendant pled guilty to most reprehensible actions. Plaintiff is certainly justified in avoiding actual or potential harm to its events, members, and reputation, not to mention the horses, by having Defendant barred from those events.

The equities balance in Plaintiff’s favor. Although Defendant would like to see his son at equestrian competitions, unfortunately for Defendant’s son Defendant is not permitted to do so. Defendant should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself in the position in which he is now. The equities balance in favor of Plaintiff who wants to keep Defendant, with his past, away from horse shows and competitions."

May we just restate one bit here? “DEFENDANT SHOULD HAVE CONSIDERED THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS BEFORE HE PUT HIMSELF IN THE POSITION IN WHICH HE IS NOW.”

Kinda sums it up for me…

As to “respecting differences” regarding those who choose to train with PV…or with any of those involved in this, or anyone whom the client KNOWS to have behaved in an unethical manner…Nope, I don’t respect that decision. To me, it is issuing a clear statement of support for the individual. I do not knowingly do business with people or with companies whose ethics I find disgusting. Should I do so unknowingly and learn of my mistake, I terminate the relationship, even if it’s inconvenient.

But then, I like to be able to look in the mirror with the lights on and not cringe…

[LexInVA]

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;2663963]
that was kind of my point. They can always show with another trainer. I have done that before, gone to a show with a different trainer because my regular trainer was busy or whatever, and the other trainer just signs the entry. I don’t believe he would be that blatant as to be signing entry forms, but maybe he would. If he is, I really have lost all hope for the USEF.[/QUOTE]

I believe that the USEF considers PV not to be part of AWF as PV is not listed as the owner of any of the 17 banned horses that are listed with AWF. It could be that he has exploited a loophole by not having himself listed as the farm owner or some other technicality but I can only speculate as to what is going on with that.

[PineTreeFarm]

@anthem35;2663961

I am coached by a team of extremely competent trainers who have the full accreditation of USEF, as well as a well respected presence at the in gate.

This is an odd statement. Your village of trainers are not accredited by USEF full or otherwise. You and your trainers are USEF members or non members or banned. No trainer credentials are issued by USEF. What were you trying to convey?

[2_tbs]

@Midge;2663946

I am glad he is sorry and I am glad he is making amends. He has a thriving business, so as far as I am concerned, he should accept the fact that he’s lucky the judge didn’t ban him from ever being around horses. Many, many professional organizations ban members for life for not playing by the rules. Realtors, Accountants, Doctors, Lawyers can all be banned for life for screwing up They can never practice their chosen profession again. PV can continue to work in his chosen profession.

Didn’t read through the thread, don’t know any more than what I’ve read here, don’t care to read about the past of PV as I’m sure it would upset me but I have to agree with the above.

I’m going to believe no mistakes were made because pre-meditated murder can get a human life in prison or the death sentence in some states. If that person held a job such as those listed above they would have their license revoked. There are ways around it-moving to another state or even country but with pre-meditated murder as the charge? I’m pretty sure the loop holes would be closed on that one.

I bring up Dr. Jack Kevorkian. Why? He helped people die. People who came to him and asked him to. The people made a conscious decision but he was punished as being wrong (not saying right or wrong-just the fact that he went to prison for it). What finally got him was giving the injection himself instead of having the patient give it. That gave the powers that be the means to make it out like murder-even though a release was signed. From what I know of the PV situation - he did not get the horses permission therefore it is murder without question.

Should we forgive? Yes, there are some things that can be forgiven over time but not all - PV’s still working in the horse industry and doing well it seems so I think enough forgiving has been done. Should we forget? Never. Not in a case like PV’s. Forgetting allows someone else to do it and possibly get away with it.

[LexInVA]

[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;2664058]
This is an odd statement. Your village of trainers are not accredited by USEF full or otherwise. You and your trainers are USEF members or non members or banned. No trainer credentials are issued by USEF. What were you trying to convey?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps she meant “recognition” or “award-winning”? I guess that’s not much better but it sounds a little more sensible.

[BarbB]

@PineTreeFarm;2664058

This is an odd statement. Your village of trainers are not accredited by USEF full or otherwise. You and your trainers are USEF members or non members or banned. No trainer credentials are issued by USEF. What were you trying to convey?

There ya go, muddying the waters with facts.

[RugBug]

It’s statements like this that just make me wonder…

@2 tbs;2664061

I bring up Dr. Jack Kevorkian. Why? He helped people die. People who came to him and asked him to. The people made a conscious decision but he was punished as being wrong (not saying right or wrong-just the fact that he went to prison for it). What finally got him was giving the injection himself instead of having the patient give it. That gave the powers that be the means to make it out like murder-even though a release was signed. From what I know of the PV situation - he did not get the horses permission therefore it is murder without question.

ANY horse owner can destroy their ‘property’ without permission. In fact, it’s wasn’t that PV had the horse electrocuted…it was that he tried to commit insurance fraud using the USPS.

[zannebar]

[QUOTE=Janet;2663896]
Well, if you are a USEF member on the show grounds, you can file a protest. It will cost you $100 though.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that’s seriously effed up.

[LexInVA]

[QUOTE=zannebar;2664093]
Wow, that’s seriously effed up.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is…I wonder if you get a $99.00 dollar discount for printing the forms yourself…