That rearing thread dealt with horses that had injured and/or killed somebody and what to do with them…not disposing of one with bad manners. I am one that advocated euthing them because, in 40 years, I have seen one that killed one and ruined the life of a wannabe rehabber and a second that was on that track. That’s a long way from considering them disposable and casually doing away with them.
I actually signed last years petition against reinstatement too.
Seventeen people stated they could make the decision to kill. Others decided on different solutions.
Not all horses can be ‘fixed’, and IMO there’s a world of difference between making the painful decision to have a horse put down because it’s dangerous and having a horse electrocuted because it’s not performing quite as well as you’d hoped (and then making a fraudulent insurance claim so that the whole sorry mess is actually a profit making exercise).
HoundsRus, very well said.
Saddletramp with all due respect in order to debate you must compare apples to apples.
[QUOTE=elite;2659454]
I don’t approve of what he did at all…but he is an absolutely fabulous trainer. It’s a matter of tipping the scale, which probably will tip in the latter direction because he has helped me improve so much in the few lessons I’ve done with him (just for clarification, I don’t train with him, I just go up there about once a month for a lesson).[/QUOTE]
You know, someone who is willing to commit insurance fraud and kill a perfectly nice horse because he’s run into financial trouble is someone who could run into financial trouble again. What might he do then? What if he’s training you for a Medal final and he’s been offered a huge bonus if one of his other students wins? Do you trust him? Do you really trust him with your preparation, with your horse’s soundness, with all the little details that can make the difference between a good trip and the winning trip?
And I have no problem saying I was one of the 17 who would have one killed if it killed or maimed somebody with repeated displays of a dangerous habit and total disregard for it’s own safety. Don’t need to lie about that and would just hire the vet as “hit man”.
That has NOTHING to do with this thread and NOTHING to do with disposing of any animal for profit.
And it would have been eighteen had I seen that thread. As many have said, making a decision to euthanize a horse that has proved itself to be dangerous and deceptively killing a horse for the insurance money are simply Two. Different. Things.
Killing a horse because it won’t do what you want is killing a horse. Not that I agree with any of these decisions, the horse killed for insurance wasn’t a perfectly nice horse, or anyone’s beloved pet, or it wouldn’t have been killed. Vice-versa a horse that rears because it doesn’t want to jump or frame-up for dressage doesn’t mean it should die. Or maybe it just doesn’t want to be ridden, ergo, if I can’t ride you, you have to die.
As I have stated before there are people walking around horse shows that have beaten horses to death.
:rolleyes: I give up.
Did anyone suggest that the horse be killed in a particularly gruesome manner in order to fool the insurance company about the cause of death and collect on a large policy?
Saddletramp, I think you are just stirring and trying to keep this going in order to argue, which you seem to enjoy. But the thread is dying a natural death and you are really reaching hard to find things to argue about.
Just thought I would point that out in case you were under the mistaken impression that the rest of us don’t get you.
that said…carry on at will. 
I don’t like this thread, it is pointless, nothing good has come out of it or ever will. I do think that people should think more before they spit their vitriol.
I also really hate the sliding scale that evryone uses. Breaking a horse’s leg with a crowbar is particularly gruesome. Sending it to the killers is fairly barbaric as well.
I have not been a major character on this thread, not like the Jerry thread.
[QUOTE=Lessonlady;2662832]
Even murderers of people who go to jail get out sometimes. How long does he need to pay his debt? How can he prove he’s a changed man? He is and was a talented horseman who made a huge error in judgement and regrets it big time. What should he do for a living now? Flip burgers?[/QUOTE]
Engineers can permanently lose their professional license for any felony, even if it is not specifically related to their engineering practice.
[QUOTE=Purely4Pleasure;2667731]
And it would have been eighteen had I seen that thread. As many have said, making a decision to euthanize a horse that has proved itself to be dangerous and deceptively killing a horse for the insurance money are simply Two. Different. Things.[/QUOTE]
Nineteen…
TOTALLY different issues
[QUOTE=ccoronios;2668058]
Nineteen…
TOTALLY different issues[/QUOTE]
Twenty.
I’ve been following this thread and I’ve read every post. And for the love of everything holy, if you think PV is the spawn of satan (and I’m not saying that he is or isn’t), then don’t ride with him. I have no idea whether or not he’s truly a changed man, if he’s actually sorry or if he’s only sorry that he got caught, or if he’s a drunk, a womanizer, or just a plain old fashioned @$$bag, and honestly I don’t really care because there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that he’ll ever have my business. There are many, many great trainers out there whose ethics I don’t have to question, so why would I bother with PV?
That said, if his current students like him and swear that he’s a changed man, then good for them. If they’re wrong and he’s exactly the same, it’s only a matter of time before they find out firsthand. Oh, and even though God may (or may not) forgive him, I definitely don’t think the USEF should. If he really cared about having a career with horses, he should have thought about the consequences of his actions BEFORE killing an innocent animal.
Hot Blood should be required reading for every horse owner.
I hope he’s never reinstated.
RIGHT ON!!! BRAVO!!!
different ‘client’ (not PV’s horse) – but that is exactly the case with iirc Streetwise that was hit with crowbar due to colic exclusion in policy
saddletramp 29, I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the horse business, but if you are in it long enough, you may have the misfortune to come across a truly dangerous horse, and then you will understand the difference between a naughty horse and one that truly poses a danger to both horses and handlers. They do exist, and to pass them along as giveaways or to auction is just putting another innocent person or horse in harm’s way, and that is wrong. Count me as number 19, voting that euthanasia is the only answer for horses of that nature if they do not respond to meds/training/efforts to help them.
I know because I had one for 13 years of trying everything to help her overcome her uber-aggressive, brain-holiday behavior…trainers, turnout, herbs,diet, hormone implants… When she killed her beloved pasture mate, and started striking out at humans, that was it. She is 12 feet under in our back pasture and she is finally at peace.
If you have dealt with a horse like this, you will know that there is absolutely No comparison to humanely euthanizing a horse with extrememly aggressive/dangerous behaviors and a man brutally maiming and killing a horse just for money. None.
I’m a junior rider (17) and by 16 the OP has had plenty of time to establish a set of morals, if her “ethics” at this point include it being perfectly okay to accept, forget, and forgive a man who killed an innocent animal for a quick payout then there’s no helping her :no: Of course I think we all know that the statistics prove a man willing to hurt animals is well on his way to abusing/assaulting/killing a human being.
I believe Ghandi said “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” … it doesn’t speak very highly of America, IMHO, that men like PV, Michael Vick, etc. can get away with killing an innocent animal for profit, entertainment, and “fun” without punishment (oh wait I guess Vick did have to serve a 24 hour jail sentence…:rolleyes:) Even if the animal needed to die for whatever reason PV should have given it the last bit of pride of an honorable, painless death and certainly not made money off of the animal’s early end to life and torture.
I’m not going to attack anyone that chooses to ride or do business with PV, but I definitely think it is putting your and your horse’s safety in the hands of a ticking time bomb. People can do what they want and train with who they wish, but my horse is for sale right now and if PV (or any client of his) offered me what we are asking - or heck even twice what we were asking - there is no way in hell she would go to anyone that would put her at the mercy of that man.
According to past posts, for many, many years and produced many Medal Finals contestants and countless Champion Hunters and Jumpers. Knows everybody.
If I’m not on the list of the original 17 people who suggested *humanely euthanizing" a dangerous horse…then add me to the new list.
I agree with doing everything in your power first to try fixing the problem before resorting to euthing an otherwise healthy horse…but if the horse is truly dangerous then yes, I do agree with euthanizing it. There’s no safe way to keep a dangerous horse…you have to come in contact with it unless you have a few hundred acres and friends it can be turned out with and never handled. I would never subject a farrier, vet, vet tech, delivery person, friend, family or myself to a possible attack by a half ton or larger animal.
However…never would I work with or even associate with anyone killing a non-dangerous horse just because it was worth more dead than alive…and then made a fraudulent claim on insurance for it. Never. And yes, I check out people who I work with also. I check police records on top of many opinions of those who know them well. (both from people who know and like them and people whi know and hate them)
I consider it part of my moral make-up. I don’t project my morals on others…however I do notice a dismal lack of them in more and more people lately.
But then, maybe I’m over the top with that. I stop friendly contact and business with anyone doing anything immoral or illegal, whether they’ve been caught doing it or not. If it’s illegal…I’m more than willing to be the whistle blower. Heck, I’ve stopped contact with people for screwing workman’s comp, I just don’t consider that a trustworthy behavior and would rather not have friends I cannot trust.
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