Just another question here for the two juniors taking lessons with Paul. When you say he is the best trainer you ever rode with, might i ask who you have ridden with to compare him to? Since he is in MA, i am assuming you are traveling somewhere in New England to take these lessons. Are you coming from a barn with a BNT? Or is this the first time you have ever taken a lesson from one, and then of course he would be the best you ever rode with. And how about shows? You are paying BNT money but when you get to the show you have a mediocre trainer who hasn’t earned his stripes yet taking you to the ring, but you are still paying the big bucks. Don’t you want your trainer to watch your round and then whatever needs improving you work on back at the barn? How does that get back to Paul? Hard for David to explain exactly what went on…I’d sure want my trainer there so that he could see what i was doing right or wrong. You’re paying the big bucks, you sould get the big buck treatment start to finish. The other point here is that reading the rulebook, do you ever worry that you and/or your horse will be set down? It’s not really all that grey, and I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet. But those here on the board know a lot better about that than I do. It just looks a little scarey to me. If they wanted to - it looks like they could set down anyone representing Paul in the ring. Advice from those here who know the rules?
[QUOTE=irishrider;2756029]
Just another question here for the two juniors taking lessons with Paul. When you say he is the best trainer you ever rode with, might i ask who you have ridden with to compare him to? Since he is in MA, i am assuming you are traveling somewhere in New England to take these lessons. Are you coming from a barn with a BNT? Or is this the first time you have ever taken a lesson from one, and then of course he would be the best you ever rode with. And how about shows? You are paying BNT money but when you get to the show you have a mediocre trainer who hasn’t earned his stripes yet taking you to the ring, but you are still paying the big bucks. Don’t you want your trainer to watch your round and then whatever needs improving you work on back at the barn? How does that get back to Paul? Hard for David to explain exactly what went on…I’d sure want my trainer there so that he could see what i was doing right or wrong. You’re paying the big bucks, you sould get the big buck treatment start to finish. The other point here is that reading the rulebook, do you ever worry that you and/or your horse will be set down? It’s not really all that grey, and I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet. But those here on the board know a lot better about that than I do. It just looks a little scarey to me. If they wanted to - it looks like they could set down anyone representing Paul in the ring. Advice from those here who know the rules?[/QUOTE]
The way I see it, they are a lot like the GM cultists. They pay a huge amount of money to someone who was a great rider (or decent depending on your point of view) and that person basically tells them how he thinks it should be done but they don’t get anything really useful out of it other than whatever ego boost or imaginary credibility they get from saying they trained with him. I think (and I know Janet will set the record straight being the keeper of the Pirate Code that she is;)) that they do not actually face any punishment because he is not in fact physically present as their trainer nor is he listed as their trainer in the show entries. The way it works (from what I have been told) is that he observes from a distance and communicates via an associate or simply trains them and lets them go off and do their competition under the supervision of someone else whom he works with under the table. The show entries are where a lot of the rule breaking and bending occur in matters like these but rarely do they ever get addressed because there is no real tracking or monitoring in place.
I think (and I know Janet will set the record straight being the keeper of the Pirate Code that she is;)) that they do not actually face any punishment because he is not in fact physically present as their trainer nor is he listed as their trainer in the show entries. The way it works (from what I have been told) is that he observes from a distance and communicates via an associate or simply trains them and lets them go off and do their competition under the supervision of someone else whom he works with under the table.
In principle, they could be suspended. 703.1.d
d. SUSPENSION for any period of any volunteer or any employed person who rides or exhibits for the benefit, credit, reputation or satisfaction of another suspended person.
However, that is kind of vague, and it would be difficult to prove, via a paper trail, that a particular rider was riding for his "benefit, credit, reputation or satisfaction".
The purpose of rule 704, however, is to
prevent the avoidance by suspended exhibitors, trainers, coaches and other persons of the terms and conditions of their suspensions
and focuses on trainers/coaches, and “pro” riders, rather than clients.
I am not going to post the whole of GR 704- you can go and look at it yourself- but it is aimed at the “someone else whom he works with under the table.”
If there is a paper trial, it is the “nominal” trainer/ coach who is mostly at risk.
It seems to me that there is a high probability that they DID find a paper trail to at least one “nominal” trainer/coach, in order to get the recent ruling against PV. But maybe the paper trail isn’t as strong at the other end.
How can you set down someone that isn’t even a member of the organization? I know of all the awful things he has done, but how do they propose to reprimand him when he hasn’t been a member in sooooo many years? I realize he was trying to be reinstated, but I thought that had been ruled on a while back. I guess the only way to enforce this is to punish the customers and helpers?
It appears that it has gone beyond “in principle they could suspend”…
Look at the latest hearing results, they HAVE punished someone (only a fine though) under GR702, 703, 704, for training/coaching on behalf of Acres Wild.
It took them a while though, as the violation took place from 1998 to 2003.
http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/Dec08Jan09.PDF
He is a Life member. It is pretty easy.
Janet,
Your memory of old threads is phenomenal! The last post in this was over a year ago.
The wheels of USEF justice are slow wheels based upon that.
SF
Well, I saw the hearing results and I searched for a thread that
a) was not locked
b) refered to GR 702, 703, 704
Rather than starting a brand new thread.
For a minute there I didn’t understand why we were beating this particular horse!
It probably took so long because “they” wanted to be sure when it was thrown against the wall it would stick. and but good, too.
Nice to see that it’s catching up to people. Idiots. Seriously, dude, just say no!
For me, just the fact that you are taking lessons from him says to me you don’t care about a horse’s welfare, Period.
Doesn’t look good for you… if you plan on continuing someday in horses, or maybe be professional one day yourself.
People will remember he horrors of PV for a very long time. Pond scum is too good a word IMO for him.
Does anybody think this thread is started by the now banned “Material Girl”?? Why else would she start such a hot button topic?
Trolls are like Herpes. You can never get rid of them. You can only treat them with medicine.
This thread was started well over a year ago. Janet brought it back up because of the additional news about someone being fined under one of the clauses she quoted a page back, albeit over 1 year ago.
Exactly.
I said, a year ago, that the people who trained “on his behalf” were violating USEF rules.
Several people said that the USEF would never enforce those rules against his surrogates.
But now the USEF HAS enforced the rule against one of his surrogates (Jeanine Cash Zuckerman).
I decided to report that fact in the context of this old thread, rather than starting a new thread.
I had no intention of restarting the discussion of how reprehensible he is (even though he is reprehensible). The POINT is the discussion about whether or not USEF would enforce their own rules. i.e the most recent (though still a year old) posts.
And they have, though not as stongly as some might like.
you all know this happened 20+/- years ago? And it was endemic in the industy-not just Paul Vallier?. And even some of our big GP riders who skated by from the net that went out are guilty?
When are those of you who post this thread every fall going to get on with your lives? Quit being a pawn of the few who have an personal business agenda.
[QUOTE=feather river;3695887]
you all know this happened 20+/- years ago? And it was endemic in the industy-not just Paul Vallier?. And even some of our big GP riders who skated by from the net that went out are guilty?
When are those of you who post this thread every fall going to get on with your lives? Quit being a pawn of the few who have an personal business agenda.[/QUOTE]
exactly.
thank you.
[QUOTE=La Gringa;3695614]
For me, just the fact that you are taking lessons from him says to me you don’t care about a horse’s welfare, Period.
Doesn’t look good for you… if you plan on continuing someday in horses, or maybe be professional one day yourself.
People will remember he horrors of PV for a very long time. Pond scum is too good a word IMO for him.[/QUOTE]
Well then don’t take lessons from him. This is still a free country, or so I thought. Shop where you want and don’t criticize others who don’t shop at your trainer’s store. Too many girls involved here…if-you-don’t-like-my-friend then-I-don’t-like-you attitudes going around on this thread.
[QUOTE=Seal Harbor;3695113]
He is a Life member. It is pretty easy.[/QUOTE]
that doesn’t matter. The USEF gestapo folks can even send you off to the camps if your membership expired 10 years ago. They will try you in abstentia–they are doing that to another person who once worked for Acres Wild when Paul did not even own the company–and that person no longer rides, own horses, or has been a member for over 10 years. But way back when she was a rider for Acres. So, since the USEF discipline committee can no longer touch Paul they are going after these little people so that they can get suspensions in the Equestrian mag in the fall of this year to affect his sales, clinics and lessons business. The USEF and the folks who control it from behind the scenes have long, spiteful memories. Beware of them. If they can hurt these little people they can hurt every one of us if they want to. Did you know that they now have USEF “secret police” at the horse shows now? They monitor the stewards, the show management, anyone who is on their list, etc. The show management doesn’t even know who they are. And they report only to Lori Nelson at the USEF–she is their big-time legal attack dog.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;3695693]
Does anybody think this thread is started by the now banned “Material Girl”?? Why else would she start such a hot button topic?[/QUOTE]
I’m sure lots of people think that. Especially the ones who can’t read.
You’re not only bad with grammar, but your offensive with your insults.
