Spina, if you took the time to read the most recent pages of this thread you will see some links to the information about two of his employees who were fined for being associated with Acres Wild Farm. So apparently the sanctions do include employees.
thanks for pointing that out. However, please be very careful while in the midst of your “kill the beast” frenzy that you take a moment to note the details, and to relay them and refer to them accurately.
PV’s students are not now, and have never been banned, sanctioned or fined. they are not “sent into places they’re not supposed to be” they go to horse shows that they are as entitled to be at as you or I. (and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here - I have no knowledge of your USEF standing). Same with his “employees”.
What his employees are NOT allowed to do is show,train and/or coach at a recognized (licensed) competition ON BEHALF of PV (or any other suspended individual). For that they would be (and apparently have been) fined. Not for “their associations with him”.
I’m sorry but what frenzy is it to which you are referring?
Ok I will stipulate as to the semantics in my earlier post that PV’s students are not under sanction, etc etc. I guess where i keep missing a turn is how can a trainer who can’t be anywhere near a horse show have students there? (purely a rhetorical question)
However, Acres Wild trainers, etc are not supposed to be there coaching his students via his instruction using cell phones and two wayradios and so on. And apparently the USEF has finally decided to enforce their own rules. It’s about time.
Call it what you will, but those of us who have been to the bigger shows that he frequents have seen it occurring and watched it going on while some folks snickered behind their hands, and those of us with a conscience wondered when the hell someone was going to do something about it or if PV would get to keep shooting everyone the bird.
Beggin the question
Can’t you find someone who is not a convicted felon or
an admitted horse killer (by conspiracy)to take lessons from?
Then you wouldn’t have to hide behind an alter.
The rules that USEF enforces has nothing to do with cellphones and radios, it has to do with being on “his behalf”.
Now please, take your anger and energy towards this individual that has nothing to do with you and direct it somewhere it can do some good. The starving masses in Darfur could use you.
[QUOTE=spina;3700728]
… The rules that USEF enforces has nothing to do with cellphones and radios, it has to do with being on "his behalf".
…[/QUOTE]
So, out of curiousity - what does “On his behalf” mean to you…
I think the angry one here is you, Spina. And you really don’t know if the situation has anything to do with me or not now do you?
Paul Valliere is not worth expending the energy it would take for me to be angry. He is a very sad pathetic little person. Actually I think he is more worthy of pity than anger. He could have been heir to the throne of GM and he chose to piss it all away. Very sad waste of a talented trainer (notice I did not use the term horseman to describe him).
I don’t think I said anything about having a problem per se with his students showing, just how can they be “his” students when he isn’t supposed to be there? Again rhetorical, although I’m sure you will want to shout at me about it again.
And if he is coaching via a proxy trainer with a cell phone or two way radio, then it is on his behalf. Hence the recent hearing results and fines, that are way overdue.
Anyway, again, it is high time that the USEF chose to enforce their own rules. Hopefully they will continue to do so. To put it into perspective, today’s current crop of top junior riders weren’t even alive when all of this occurred.
Well said - gave me a good chuckle… :lol:
I’m not angry, just kind of tired of dealing with the kind of self righteous spewing that revels in an audience.
And I know you have nothing to do with PV because you’d know that he actually isn’t a sad or pathetic person at all. He’s a very successful trainer and coach who made a horrible decision MANY years ago that he has regretted and repented ever since - and has risen up out of that horror to become a good, productive and very generous person. No waste of a valuable trainer here, he is still successful and sought after - and a better person.
his being there or not being there has nothing to do with them being his students.
Spina, like it or not – history can NOT be changed. PV did what he did. And, regardless of the “horrible” or “regrettable” nature of that decision – the consequences are going to be life-long. What PV (and others) did IS indefensible to most of us.
Seb
[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;3700757]
I don’t think I said anything about having a problem per se with his students showing, just how can they be “his” students when he isn’t supposed to be there? [/QUOTE]
I guess because “his” students are entitled to show with any other trainer they choose or none at all.
and I’m not angry, just kind of tired of dealing with the kind of self righteous spewing that revels in an audience.
And I know you have nothing to do with PV because you’d know that he actually isn’t a sad or pathetic person at all. He’s a very successful trainer and coach who made a horrible decision MANY years ago that he has regretted and repented ever since - and has risen up out of that horror to become a good, productive and very generous person. No waste of a valuable trainer here, he is still successful and sought after - and a better person.
Like I said, it was a rhetorical question, which means no response was necessary.
And you are correct in that I have not had anything to do with Paul Valliere for many years. That was by choice, because of some behavior I saw in some dealings with him shortly before the horse killings came to light (and actually I learned later it occurred while all of that was going on) and I made the choice to no longer be associated with him in any way nor to have any further dealings with him. The old dogs and fleas thing I stated before.
He doesn’t appear to me to have repented in the least, to the contrary, his continued nose thumbing and scoffing at the rules caused some of his employees to be fined and set down. That doesn’t appear to be opinion, that appears to be fact based on the link to the USEF.
So lets put the focus of this thread back where it belongs. It’s not about you and me and semantics and whatever you choose to see instead of what I wrote.
This thread is about Paul Valliere.
I completely agree. But it is history. We watched, and learned and paid attention to the good guys and the bad guys and the details.
USEF gets to decide if he gets to play in their sandbox. They’re saying no thanks, not yet, maybe never.
We each get to choose if we want him to in our sandbox, to be our trainer or mentor or friend or husband or whipping boy. Most of us are saying no thanks, not yet, maybe never.
But I don’t think it’s right for us to take a person - any person - who has already been punished for a crime and continue to seek vengeance or wish ill for them. This is an old story, and we are not doing anybody any good by continuing to dredge up old evils. It’s time to move on. Not forget, but to move on.
Well, I would like to say that no one is seeking vengance against PV, but I also am not that naive. I can only speak for myself, I don’t know what is in another’s heart and we all know there are some real winners out there. I know that I am not seeking any vengance or anything else for that matter against him, quite frankly he isn’t worth the effort that such activities would take. And i sure don’t wish him any ill will, I really don’t care that much. But I will say that he nor anyone who works for him or has worked for him will ever be anywhere near any of my horses.
I do think that most of us have moved on from this incident, at least i have. But I also think that this incident is to the horse world like many other horrible things in the past are in the world as a whole. History is one of those things that if we forget it we are doomed to repeat it. I do think that it needs to be discussed and people need to be reminded. Those who may not be aware of the situation should be told. People need to know about these things, and that they do happen. PV is not the first and he won’t be the last. He just got caught. Maybe the occasional discussion will be a deterrent to someone else considering stepping down the wrong path.
We are our horse’s voice and it is our duty to keep them safe.
This is where we disagree… Yes, the USEF does get to decide who plays in THEIR sandbox, BUT as a member of the Horse Community enlarge…??? I have every right to hold his actions against him for the rest of his life.
If I ruled the world – “moving on” would mean that this man never had contact with horses again. But, since I DON’T rule the world, and he DOES get to have contact with horses and young impressionable minds…I will continue what I consider the nobel effort of “dredging up the old evils.”
This should NEVER be “old” news, lest people be tempted to digress in this horrible fashion once again.
Those who forget history are destine to repeat it. And, consequences are everlasting.
Seb
But I don’t think it’s right for us to take a person - any person - who has already been punished for a crime and continue to seek vengeance or wish ill for them. This is an old story, and we are not doing anybody any good by continuing to dredge up old evils. It’s time to move on. Not forget, but to move on.
I think for many to most people it all depends on the crime.
Acts of torture, violence and/or death towards living beings is something some people can look beyond over time and others won’t.
Add in the fact that it was for money makes it cold premeditated crimes. Another factor that will affect many folks’ opinions.
And those who support and/or defend him now may see it more as an Insurance Fraud thing only. The “on paper” and “white collar” type crime…victimless in some ways because it’s defrauding a huge corporation.
Only…there were victims that were living and that had lives ended in most unpleasant ways. For no reason other than greed. That greed would cause suffering and death to an animal that isn’t mentally equipped to understand what’s going on and who’s care is in the hands of the person doing it is something that some people will never move on from. Time done and time in general may never remove the stigma for some people.
And let’s not forget…a human also lost their life because of this. If PV and friends were never involved in their “white collar” insurance fraud then Helen Brach would never have died.
But I guess we can all move on as long as we don’t forget. :no:
How in the world did you come to this conclusion?
The 30-some odd people convicted of insurance fraud, animal cruelty, frauding the wealthy by selling them low end horses for too much money and then killing them for insurance if they found out they were frauded…they were not exclusive of one another. They all knew what the others were doing and copying and expanding on each crime from each other.
Had none of them started their escalating crimes then Ms Brach would never have found out about it and threatened to report it. And never would have lost her life because of it.
Nobody is naive enough to think that all the parties were unaware of what each was doing.
I don’t believe that any of these horse killers (and the Brach murderers) were punished enough.
However, I do think the federal judge in these cases was great to give some people some jail time. Thankfully they defrauded the insurance companies and the insurance companies pushed the criminal cases and advocated jail time. Too many horse killers get probation. Or don’t get prosecuted at all.
No way Valliere even knew who Richard Bailey was. 15 years after Mrs Brach disappeared, Barney Ward introduced Valliere to someone who knew someone who had worked off + on with Bailey in the 1970’s.
