Paul valliere

[shade]

[QUOTE=spina;3700856]
I guess because “his” students are entitled to show with any other trainer they choose or none at all.

and I’m not angry, just kind of tired of dealing with the kind of self righteous spewing that revels in an audience.

And I know you have nothing to do with PV because you’d know that he actually isn’t a sad or pathetic person at all. He’s a very successful trainer and coach who made a horrible decision MANY years ago that he has regretted and repented ever since - and has risen up out of that horror to become a good, productive and very generous person. No waste of a valuable trainer here, he is still successful and sought after - and a better person.[/QUOTE]

Ok this made me laugh…risen up out of the horror…too funny…

Been drinking a bit of the koolaid have we Spina?

PV barely lost a beat due to what he did…he kept right on going it was all just a little bump in the road for him…and his business was flourisihing when he did this and it never stopped…so how has he had to rise from the horror…tell me that…the only thing I see is that is different is that he cannot train at the ring at shows.

I don’t consder someone who had a horse killed for money a valuable trainer…in any other industry/business he would no longer be allowed to make a living at his profession…so he should consider himself VERY VERY lucky that he is able to still train at all.

[MistyBlue]

As I mentioned "PV and friends" I don’t think PV is directly related to the disappearance of HB. I do measure PV on the same scale as Bailey, Burns, Ward, Druck and the rest. If there weren’t people around with such low moral standards to be hiring the likes of Bailey and Burns et al…

But yet there are people who will continue to support people like PV because “well, he wasn’t doing that then” or “he used different killers” or “it was a while back” and “but he’s soooo popular and talented so I choose to ignore his moral shortcomings of yesteryear”

Does anyone honestly believe that if PV, Ward, whomever had the chance right now to collect on insurance fraud if it resulted in an equine death and they were guaranteed beyond any shadow of a doubt nobody would ever find out…that they wouldn’t do it? Or at least think about it? Does anyone believe they’ve “repented” and “mourned” the lost lives of the animals and the lost money of the people they defrauded or that they were caught? Because not a single one ever stopped until caught. And PV never thought to “help” the other horses by turning rat…he thought to save his own arse. IF he truly were regretting it…he’d have stopped without the help of authorities and a pretty darned sweet deal to keep him out of prison.

People can be and are perceived by the company they keep AND emulate.

[Big_Yellow_Taxi]

Not sure thinking about it constitutes a major infraction or moral lapse.

[MistyBlue]

Major infraction? No. Moral lapse…to me, yes. Probably to many others too.
Sorry but I don’t think seriously contemplating killing an animal for the purposes of defrauding a company while lining your own pockets show any moral fortitude at all. Even if you don’t do it, seriously considering it (especially after having already done it in the past) shows a massive lack of character.
People who have moral character do not seriously consider these types of things. Period.
In the horse business all you really have at the end of every day is your personal reputation.

[Big_Yellow_Taxi]

Or a handful of ribbons.

[nycrider2004]

I cannot believe I’m posting on this but, Misty, I think the above persons post was more to the point of something like this…

I seriously considered killing my mother over thanks giving - now, of course I didn’t :), but it definitely crossed my mind. Is having those thoughts really a moral lapse?

I’ve had similar thoughts about my dog too when she destroyed a particularly expensive and favorite pair of shoes. Again, I didn’t do it, but it was a thought. Obviously, I’d never do anything of the srt but it’s sort of your natural reaction to want to ring there little necks at times The moral lapse would be to actually act on that natural reaction.

Clearly these are frivilous responses and probably not what you meant to suggest either, but I think to most people, having the thought isn’t exactly the same as taking the action.

As for this whole Paul thing, I do think the degree to which horse’s welfare is a prided element of this sport and kept at the forefront of all decisions is definitely something that we, as a community, should keep pushing to have discussed as an issue, and working on strengthening as a guiding element for training decisions, etc.

However, I see verly little of what can be productive about constantly using him as the poster boy as a way to bring this conciousness about. In the fight against one you lose sight of the actions that might help the many.

[Jumpingfool]

[QUOTE=spina;3700856]
He’s a very successful trainer and coach who made a horrible decision MANY years ago that he has regretted and repented ever since - and has risen up out of that horror to become a good, productive and very generous person. No waste of a valuable trainer here, he is still successful and sought after - and a better person.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps if I thought that was the only time he ever did it I might be more inclined to agree with your assessment, but I am very old with a very long memory. His ‘generosity’ to various horse related charities is also tied to a ‘request’ for a letter to the USEF from said charity to express their opinion tht he be reinstated.

Granted who knows what the story is since his reinstatement has been denied.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=Jumpingfool;3701512]
Perhaps if I thought that was the only time he ever did it I might be more inclined to agree with your assessment, but I am very old with a very long memory. [/QUOTE]

I, too, have a long memory.

Over the years, I’ve voted with my pocketbook. I will not support those “professionals” in the industry that have participated in fraudulent transactions (insurance fraud, inflated commissions, etc.), abuse of horses due to “training” methods, or abuse of staff.

I think it is completely appropriate to expose someone who has systematically abused the industry to clients and potential clients who were not around when the abuses that were prosecuted were made public. As a client you have the right to choose who you support with your training $$. If you choose to support individuals with questionable morals, that is something you need to live with.

[Star_Creek]

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated.

~ Mahatma Gandhi

[Hopeful_Hunter]

[QUOTE=spina;3700910]
This is an old story, and we are not doing anybody any good by continuing to dredge up old evils. It’s time to move on. Not forget, but to move on.[/QUOTE]

ah, but it does need to be retold, so that it is not forgotton.

Part of the problem with the industry, IMO, is the number of things “everyone” knows but which NO ONE bothers to tell newcomers. So, unless someone happened to even know about suspension lists, or this board, etc, a person could unknowingly train with and support PV, even though they would be horrified to learn of this.

Keeping this public is a service to the industry. It says “we will not condone this kind of behavior” in a clear way. Saying “oh, it’s a long time ago” sends a VERY different message, one that tells the world “well, yeah, some horses died but it’s all long past so it’s ok.” I work in PR, the world where message and perception rule. We don’t want the perception that we as an industry condone horse killings to ever be out there – it will do nothing to attract new participants, let alone sponsors.

People choose situational ethics all the time - that’s their right, but I have little respect for it. I’m a believer in ethics, period. Ethics that don’t change because it’s more convenient, or lucrative, or easier. Ethics that you stick to regardless of difficulty. It’s a harder path, but one that allows for a much sounder sleep.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@spina;3700910

But I don’t think it’s right for us to take a person - any person - who has already been punished for a crime.

Actually he has not been punished. He just found a way around the punishment, so he didn’t have to “accept” it. That was, and is thumbing his nose at the rules, and anyone that cares about horses.

I agree with HH, it needs to be told again, and again, so newcomers learn, and the rest of us never forget. The USEF also needs to hear that we DO care, and WILL support a decision to go after anyone not in compliance with the intent of the punishment.

[findeight]

@Big Yellow Taxi;3701208

No way Valliere even knew who Richard Bailey was. 15 years after Mrs Brach disappeared, Barney Ward introduced Valliere to someone who knew someone who had worked off + on with Bailey in the 1970’s.

Well, if BW introduced them? This is a good defense?

[akhunterrider]

I don’t think it’s okay to just say he feels bad about what he did. My philosophy with just about anything is that if you commit and act and have time to think it through, you can’t just go back and say you’re sorry and it won’t happen again. Surely this was a well thought out process by Paul Valliere and while he probably will not do it again, I still don’t think he should be allowed to just walk back into the horse show scene, even after 15 years. While I do not know much abou Paul Valliere, I can’t consider someone who once killed a horse for insurance money a good horseman by any means. People do make mistakes and should be given second chances, but this is not just a mistake, nor should he ever expect a second chance. No matter how bad he feels about what happened 15 years ago.

[Twomanydawgs]

I have a question…if you are one of the naive and or just don’t care people who choose to train and keep horses with him how do they get insurance companies to insure their horses??? Does he still do business as Acres Wild or does he smoke screen the business thru another person for example David O. is supposidly working for him? Don’t understand why David would associate with that scumbag as by all accounts David is a good guy. Guess times are hard and he had to go where the money was.:no:

[ccoronios]

nycrider (on MistyBlue post)
“I seriously considered killing my mother over thanks giving - now, of course I didn’t , but it definitely crossed my mind. Is having those thoughts really a moral lapse?”

I think there’s a HUGE difference between the WORDS (which we probably have all used at some point about some living being in our lives) and actually CONSIDERING the action. The words are (usually/hopefully) an expression of momentary frustration - although I prefer “she’s gonna drive me to drink - A LOT!!!” since there’s more than one superstitious bone in my body. Blowing off steam - NOT downing a quart of Jack.

On the other hand, SERIOUS consideration about killing her (which to me would include the REAL desire to see her dead and thinking about how to accomplish that) would concern me enough to suggest seeking counseling.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@ccoronios;3704883

I think there’s a HUGE difference between the WORDS (which we probably have all used at some point about some living being in our lives) and actually CONSIDERING the action. The words are (usually/hopefully) an expression of momentary frustration - although I prefer “she’s gonna drive me to drink - A LOT!!!” since there’s more than one superstitious bone in my body. Blowing off steam - NOT downing a quart of Jack.

On the other hand, SERIOUS consideration about killing her (which to me would include the REAL desire to see her dead and thinking about how to accomplish that) would concern me enough to suggest seeking counseling.

I threaten to kill my son weekly, and he does the same to me. Usually it is about him eating the last of the Haagen Dazs, or me taking the rest of the Outback cheese fries with the topping. :winkgrin: Both of those being true hanging offences. :lol:

All joking aside, if you are willing to kill a horse for insurance money, it is not a mistake. It is about how the person feels about animals. To this person, a horse is a tool tp be used until he is done with it, and then disposed of in any way he wants. To those of us that love them, that attitude will never be something that is forgiven. That is not, and never will be a paid your dues kind of mistake. A tiger does not change its stripes.

The blatantly standing just outside of a “legal” showgrounds, coaching thru a flunky by walkie talkie, is also proof of just how PV feels about following rules too.

[Comfortably_Numb]

Does anyone else think it may have been a case where the parents said, Gee, my kid isn’t winning, and PV may have told them a new horse would fix that, then the parents said they didn’t have money for a new horse, and suddenly Dobbin was toes up, with fresh insurance money in the parent’s checkbook? Knowing how naive alot of horse parents are, I can bet that alot of them didn’t know about the series of unfortunate incidents that lead to their horses’ demise. There was a time when right after the eq finals there would be a slew of colics, I always thought the horses were being sold under new names to another side of the country, but stupid me never considered they might be offed for insurance money.

[Trevelyan96]

Alter… keep in mind you are judged by the company you keep. Do you want to be know as someone who’s ambition is greater than than moral fiber?

[Trevelyan96]

[QUOTE=Saddletramp 29;2660533]
I know of two different trainers that have beaten horses to death. I am not the only one who knows this information. These people are regulars at “AA”. Then there’s the whole Grand Sabor thing, not to mention the pipe. The girl who was the vet in all this insurance fraud got a little house arrest time and was rewarded with a national championship. I think that MaClain still trains with Barney, at least he doesn’t shun him, and the boy was close to the tree when all this happened. Horses are dieing from neglect and bad med programs at show venues all the time. And then there’s horse beaters. And fraud in sales. Years ago we had a trainer that sent someone to the hospital once a month, trying to get them to do something they couldn’t do. There are cheaters everywhere and they just keep on and on. And everyone lets them.[/QUOTE]

Not with me. Not as long as I know about it. And as much as I can admire McClain’s riding skills, have no respect for him and neither does DD because of the incident in Aachen.

[miss_girl]

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;3700958]
We are our horse’s voice and it is our duty to keep them safe.[/QUOTE]

Well said Jaegermonster!