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Paul valliere

Hunter/Jumper
#761

Wow! You guys really get nasty! The way I look at it is that Paul got in a really bad and pressured situation and did the worst thing possible in murdering that horse. Don’t think for a minute it didn’t upset him to do it. Have you looked at pictures of him before and after? He fell apart with guilt! His life went down the tubes and his marriage failed (probably a good thing in hindsight). When he got caught, he was honest about what he had done which is more than many of the others did! He got death threats, he was spat on. He paid!
I guess my question is, how long does he have to pay? Can he do anything to be forgiven? Horses are what he knows so that is his job. While I completely condemn what he did, I think he has done his time and deserves to be returned to society on probation. This is just my opinion.

He wasn’t in a pressured situation…he wasn’t poor and he wasn’t going hungry and nobody was holding a gun to his head. He wanted more money the easy way.
And please don’t you think for a minute that he fell apart over the guilt of what he did…he fell apart over getting caught. Because don’t believe for a moment that this was the only horse he did it to…it was the only horse they could prove he did it to. Dollars to donuts it wasn’t a single aberrant act…when motivated by greed these aren’t single acts.
Everyone is honest after they get caught…IF those who caught him are offering a deal to keep his arse out of jail. Do you think the first time he was questioned he blushed, hung his head and said, “yes, I did that. I was pressured into it and now I feel sooo bad I want everyone else doing it to stop!” Complete nonsense…not even Disney can make up feel-good fiction like that. He didn’t admit to crap until he thought they could prove it and he knew he was getting a deal…and otherwise he never would have 'fessed up nor would he have ratted out a single other person without a sentence hanging over his head. He’d have let many other horses die and more insurance fraid to continue if nobody had caught him and offered him a deal.
How long does he have to pay? I’d say forever considering his total complete and utter lack of regret since that single act he was caught for. His words mean nothing compared to his actions since that time. He’s thumbed his nose in a snide and smug way for AGES since that time…and he continues to do so. He didn’t act like a rueful guilty party since then and he’s been very smug about how he’s cheated the “no coaching on show grounds” rule also.
Those who still train with him and line his pockets to keep him in the horseworld obviously care more about a 50 cent cheap piece of ribbon than they do their own reputations or the fact that he’s a smug cold cheating person.
This country has no shortage of good trainers who haven’t done what he has and who aren’t smug and sanctimonious about it…howzabout supporting them instead? He’s not teaching rocket science or brain surgery…he’s teaching the well heeled socialites how to stay on a horse over a simple series of fences in a course. No need to flock to him for that as if he’s the only guru to figure out how to do that.
Horses being the only thing he knows? He seems to know enough about the insurance business too…could get a job there. Oh wait…they wouldn’t hire him.

#762

Yes, he can get far away from horses, and earn his living doing something not animal related. People that do horrible criminal acts against their profession lose their right to practice etc in that line of work.

#763

[QUOTE=Lessonlady;3727417
I guess my question is, how long does he have to pay? Can he do anything to be forgiven? Horses are what he knows so that is his job. While I completely condemn what he did, I think he has done his time and deserves to be returned to society on probation. This is just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

He’s paid his debt to society.

That does not mean he can resume his place in society. It’s not a clean slate. It’s not forgotten.

He’s free to move about the country, and to earn a living. He’s been banned from resuming the role he played prior to his conviction.

That’s pretty normal, actually. Pedophiles aren’t permitted to run day care facilities no matter how sorry they are. Animal abusers are forbidden from owning animals again. Embezzlers aren’t trusted to handle money or bookkeeping duties.

The industry doesn’t want the guy around. He’s the type of person that the horse industry is working to get RID of. The bad horsemen, the ones who abuse their animals, the ones who drug them, are reckless, and who set bad examples. We don’t want them in the ring, on the sidelines, or teaching the kids.

Instead of respecting that, he thumbs his nose and deals with people who are like-minded. Which means the horse world has more housecleaning to do.

#764

Yup I’m a nurse and should I do anything to intentionally or am grossly neglegant in taking care of a patient do you think they will hesitate to pull my licence to practice permanently?? They would do it in a heartbeat as they should.

He committed the crime he did the time, but there will be and should be long term reprocussions for his actions.

#765

And I’m sure he is perfectly capable of finding work in a profession not involving horses so just drop that part of your arguement. It’s not like he loves the horses or anything. I still feel he should be thanking his lucky stars that he’s even allowed to make a living with horses.

And isn’t it strange how seldom Barney Ward’s name shows up on COTH? And you know people are still doing business with him.

#766

[QUOTE=Lessonlady;3727417]
Wow! You guys really get nasty! The way I look at it is that Paul got in a really bad and pressured situation and did the worst thing possible in murdering that horse. Don’t think for a minute it didn’t upset him to do it. Have you looked at pictures of him before and after? He fell apart with guilt! His life went down the tubes and his marriage failed (probably a good thing in hindsight). When he got caught, he was honest about what he had done which is more than many of the others did! He got death threats, he was spat on. He paid!
I guess my question is, how long does he have to pay? Can he do anything to be forgiven? Horses are what he knows so that is his job. While I completely condemn what he did, I think he has done his time and deserves to be returned to society on probation. This is just my opinion.[/QUOTE] Yeh right!

So he employs cruelty to kill a horse and commits an illegal act and we’re nasty!

You have a VERY strange judgement set of moral standards.

If he were in the UK his trainers licence would be revoked and he’d be banned and subject to a fine each and every time he trained. Rightly to.

I’m sure he’s sorry he got caught and I’ve no doubt he might have served his legal sentence but it doesn’t stop me thinking he’s a scum bag that shouldn’t be around horses and knowing he’s no horseman or horse lover. It also doesn’t stop me from knowing that those who pay him are just supporting him.

Lie down with pigs and you get dirty!

If that makes me nasty, I really don’t care.

#767

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;3727508]
He wasn’t in a pressured situation…he wasn’t poor and he wasn’t going hungry and nobody was holding a gun to his head. He wanted more money the easy way.
And please don’t you think for a minute that he fell apart over the guilt of what he did…he fell apart over getting caught. Because don’t believe for a moment that this was the only horse he did it to…it was the only horse they could prove he did it to. Dollars to donuts it wasn’t a single aberrant act…when motivated by greed these aren’t single acts.
Everyone is honest after they get caught…IF those who caught him are offering a deal to keep his arse out of jail. Do you think the first time he was questioned he blushed, hung his head and said, “yes, I did that. I was pressured into it and now I feel sooo bad I want everyone else doing it to stop!” Complete nonsense…not even Disney can make up feel-good fiction like that. He didn’t admit to crap until he thought they could prove it and he knew he was getting a deal…and otherwise he never would have 'fessed up nor would he have ratted out a single other person without a sentence hanging over his head. He’d have let many other horses die and more insurance fraid to continue if nobody had caught him and offered him a deal.
How long does he have to pay? I’d say forever considering his total complete and utter lack of regret since that single act he was caught for. His words mean nothing compared to his actions since that time. He’s thumbed his nose in a snide and smug way for AGES since that time…and he continues to do so. He didn’t act like a rueful guilty party since then and he’s been very smug about how he’s cheated the “no coaching on show grounds” rule also.
Those who still train with him and line his pockets to keep him in the horseworld obviously care more about a 50 cent cheap piece of ribbon than they do their own reputations or the fact that he’s a smug cold cheating person.
This country has no shortage of good trainers who haven’t done what he has and who aren’t smug and sanctimonious about it…howzabout supporting them instead? He’s not teaching rocket science or brain surgery…he’s teaching the well heeled socialites how to stay on a horse over a simple series of fences in a course. No need to flock to him for that as if he’s the only guru to figure out how to do that.
Horses being the only thing he knows? He seems to know enough about the insurance business too…could get a job there. Oh wait…they wouldn’t hire him.[/QUOTE]

MB-Great post!

#768

[QUOTE=Lessonlady;3727417]
Wow! You guys really get nasty! The way I look at it is that Paul got in a really bad and pressured situation and did the worst thing possible in murdering that horse.

and so he should be

Don’t think for a minute it didn’t upset him to do it. Have you looked at pictures of him before and after?

why on earth would people want to look at a man that abuses ----- trust

He fell apart with guilt! His life went down the tubes and his marriage failed (probably a good thing in hindsight).
so what a lot of marriages fail but not becuase of someone that untrust worthy
if one can kill a horse then it makes you think are you SAFE

When he got caught, he was honest about what he had done which is more than many of the others did! He got death threats, he was spat on. He paid!

life is for life regardless of human or animal

unfortunately for the horse-------- he didnt have that choice as it was taken away
the horse PAID a high price for being loyal

I guess my question is, how long does he have to pay?

most people were brought up understanding right from wrong
most people when in work in any employement and espeically those that teach or trian
are in a position of trust

he abused that trust in all meanings of the word

Can he do anything to be forgiven?

no- it doesnt matter what you look at it or try to defend or help this person
he did what he did as pre - dicted , he knew what he was doing was wrong
and hes of reasonable sound mind in other words there is nothing he can say other than the truth in a court of law that he did what he did

a life is a life- and he has to pay for that life he stole
life long- period

Horses are what he knows so that is his job.

really------
he knows horses yeap he knows how to eletricute them
and watch and wait until they die

he a proven guilty man of his own actions of which was pre mediatated
he knew full well what he was doing being of sound mind

While I completely condemn what he did, I think he has done his time and deserves to be returned to society on probation. This is just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

he can return into society
but he shouldnt be anywhere near any animal or children

he has a crimnal record which should be checked via each and every employer
especially in trianing of any kind or in any employment where he is a position of trust

there no excuses he took a life

these sorts of people give the equine industry a bad taste as bad publicity
and the sentences that they get should be the same as a human
when one is killed, via pre meditation-- ie knows what he was doing and was of sound mind
without any question of doubt - he was found guilty
and should have a life long sentence for his actions

theres no forgiving and no excuses for what was a crimnal act on anothers life human or animal

#769

I think everyone knows what Paul did was terrible (including Paul). There were many other trainers and riders involved - many of whom you guys probably support now. In fact there weren’t many people in the industry at that time who weren’t involved in some way, either directly or by turning a blind eye. So if you supported the sport then or now you are supporting other people who were involved - Paul was just one of the very few who got caught!

People put animals to sleep for financial reasons all the time - yes the methods may be different and we can debate what is more humane or moral, but it still comes down to money. For example I couldn’t afford colic surgery for my last horse and so put her to sleep - yes if I’d sold some other things I could have paid for it but I didn’t.

I don’t condone Paul’s actions but I think we need to look at who else was involved and got away with it as well as learning to forgive and accept that people can do terrible things at one stage in their lives and later become a better person.

#770

OHBROTHERANDSISTER:

“heart of gold” Are you kidding me!!!

ONLINEJUMPER:

To compare euthansia to a cold blooded, inhumane killing of a horse is absolutly absurd.

MISTYBLUE: could not agree with you more.

#771

[QUOTE=onlinejumper;3727808]
I think everyone knows what Paul did was terrible (including Paul). There were many other trainers and riders involved - many of whom you guys probably support now. In fact there weren’t many people in the industry at that time who weren’t involved in some way, either directly or by turning a blind eye. So if you supported the sport then or now you are supporting other people who were involved - Paul was just one of the very few who got caught!

People put animals to sleep for financial reasons all the time - yes the methods may be different and we can debate what is more humane or moral, but it still comes down to money. For example I couldn’t afford colic surgery for my last horse and so put her to sleep - yes if I’d sold some other things I could have paid for it but I didn’t.

I don’t condone Paul’s actions but I think we need to look at who else was involved and got away with it as well as learning to forgive and accept that people can do terrible things at one stage in their lives and later become a better person.[/QUOTE]

Apparently not ‘everyone’ knows or understands what this guy did was beyond horrible/ terrible as they still do business with him and still rush off to defend him by stating it was a mistake, he was pressured into doing it etc. Though him being pressured into it is new to me.

Yes people put their animals down everyday. YOu chose to due to the inability to pay for colic surgery to give your mare more ‘quality’ of life. YOur mare had lessened quality of life as I assume she was prone to colic, was in some sort of pain on many days due to this etc. However ever the horse that PV put to death I do not recall reading it haveing a quality of life problem. but rather its ‘quality in the show ring’ was what he put into play. It was not winning in hte way he wanted it to. Huge diferance gee horsie cant jumpe well enough to win everytime at what ever level… vs My horse is in some sort of pain unless I can get this done. this is beyond my financial means. She will not get any 'better with out this surgery. I can not morally sell her to someone knowing she needs this surgery. It is better for the horsethat she be out down. HUGE Diffreance.

Now for his being pressured in to killing the horse. Who was standing there when he was making hte arrangements with a gun to his head? Who threatened his family if he didnt kill the horse? Was his propety threatened ( ie would have his farm burned down if he didnt)? I would like ot know what type of ‘pressure’ the guy was under to make him do this? Or waas he just pressured by HIS greed to have more $$$ in his bank account?

The word mistake has been tossed around… A mistake on his part would ahve been a laps in morals to where he may have thought about the easy way to get money then not following through. OR maybe even He made the arrangement had 2nd 3rd 4th feelings about it contacted the athorities prior to the horse being killed assisting the athorities in hte ‘sting’ and even then serve time for arrainging it. The mistake would have been making the arrangement BUT he attempted to make admends by contiactng the approate people to end it. He did none of these he took it as far as he could because he got caught. I imagine he would have continued if he ( and hte others involved) had not gotten caught.

forgive??? No dont think so. Forget… Never…

#772

[QUOTE=Lessonlady;3727417]
Wow! You guys really get nasty! The way I look at it is that Paul got in a really bad and pressured situation and did the worst thing possible in murdering that horse. Don’t think for a minute it didn’t upset him to do it. Have you looked at pictures of him before and after? He fell apart with guilt! [/QUOTE]

How touching! NOT!! :eek:

#773

No, I don’t support any of the folks who were involved but didn’t get “caught”.

How can you compare putting an ill horse to sleep with killing a healthy horse for profit?

Everyone in this industry votes with their check book. If you purchase services from those trainers who abuse horses, students or grooms, who cheat owners out of commissions, or who commit fraud, then you are condoning their actions. I don’t care when the crime was committed.

My own personal decision when it comes to trainers is as follows:

  • I work only with trainers who put the horse’s welfare first
  • I only work with trainers who enter into respectful relationships with their students

Sure there are honest, kind and talented trainers out there. You just need to look. And yes, there are people who “got away” with many things . . . most of the time, you just need to listen to them and watch what happens at their barns.

Now, I’m not someone the industry cares about: I no longer compete and I don’t take nearly the number of lessons that I did in the past. However, I have always voted with my check book and refused to support the people who I knew were behaving poorly or who had committed crimes in the past.

#774

[QUOTE=onlinejumper;3727808]
I think everyone knows what Paul did was terrible (including Paul). There were many other trainers and riders involved - many of whom you guys probably support now. In fact there weren’t many people in the industry at that time who weren’t involved in some way, either directly or by turning a blind eye. So if you supported the sport then or now you are supporting other people who were involved - Paul was just one of the very few who got caught!

People put animals to sleep for financial reasons all the time - yes the methods may be different and we can debate what is more humane or moral, but it still comes down to money. For example I couldn’t afford colic surgery for my last horse and so put her to sleep - yes if I’d sold some other things I could have paid for it but I didn’t.

I don’t condone Paul’s actions but I think we need to look at who else was involved and got away with it as well as learning to forgive and accept that people can do terrible things at one stage in their lives and later become a better person.[/QUOTE]

You know, I never understood the whole, ‘other people did it and didn’t get caught.’ as some sort of rationalization to forgive and forget. And to somehow lump everyone who was around at the time in the same boat is certainly disingenuous. We can’t know everything about every person. We have to base our decisions on what we know. I do know other people who were doing the same thing and were never caught mainly because they handled it ‘in house’. I do not support them, either. I certainly can’t post who they are on a public bulletin board.

And how can you not possibly understand the difference between these insurance killings and euthanasia??? Even for ‘financial reasons’, Paul had that horse offed to commit insurance fraud, something that cost all of us who insure horses. And he left the job to a loser with a couple alligator clips and an extension cord. Just think, you could have saved yourself the cost of euthanasia and done the deed yourself. Why didn’t you?

#775

You really compare euthanasia to electrocuting a horse? At least with euthanasia, the horse was happy until the very last minute, was never tortured to death, felt peaceful and surrounded by the people he/she loved at the end, instead of feeling enormous amounts of pain and probably being scared to death. I promised myself I wouldn’t comment on this thread because everything I felt had pretty much been covered by the majority of the posters on here, but that comment really hit me hard.

#776

Me too. It never would have crossed my mind when my short stirrup pony was failing from old age years back to hook her up to a light socket vs. calling the vet to humanely euthanize her, which is what we chose. It’s not even close to the same.

#777

[QUOTE=onlinejumper;3727808]
I think everyone knows what Paul did was terrible (including Paul). There were many other trainers and riders involved - many of whom you guys probably support now. <snip>
I don’t condone Paul’s actions but I think we need to look at who else was involved and got away with it .[/QUOTE]

Grand idea! Let’s DO “out” the individuals who behave this way – in the past and present – so that, those of who care about such niceties anyway, CAN choose not to support them!

See, people don’t know about “who did/does what” unless they have access to that information. And, if you’re not part of that barn, or that set, you may not know. Especially if you’re not an A show circuit type, it could be very easy to clinic with or otherwise support someone whose actions would appall you.

So out them all! Let me and others be truly informed about the kind of people our money is supporting. I choose to support companies whose business ethics I agree with all the time, and certainly want to do so within the horse world, too.

And, if you’re wondering, that does have a corrollary – I don’t want to support PV or anyone else whose ethics and behavior I find antithetical to my ethics. Regardless of how long ago they did what they did, if it’s something I cannot accept, then the consequences exist…a concept some PV supporters don’t agree with, I know…

#778

:dead:

#779

That would clearly violate the COTH rules against unsubstantiated allegations.

#780

To the person who didn’t understand why Barney Ward is rarely discussed, it might be because he was pretty much just the agent involved. He was certainly as “famous” as PV, and other than when he got caught spectating at shows, he has kept low profile since then.

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