Paul valliere

[mvp]

With respect to this thread’s legs.

Would it never have appeared or lived like Methusalah (sp?) had

a) the AHSA done “enough” in people’s eyes in the way of sanctions?

Are we unhappy because sufficient punishment was not meted out, or because no amount will suffice? If we are unhappy with our governing body, that’s a decent reason to keep the memory of all this fresh for the USEF’s benefit. They ought to know what their membership thinks. If, on the other hand, Dante didn’t name a circle bad enough for these guys, then this thread is a waste of time. We don’t control room assignments in the afterlife.

b) P V, B W and the Lindemans quietly (or with great fanfare) left the sport?

If that’s what fuels interest 20 years later, THEN STOP PATRONIZING THEM! It is true that the USEF (however toothless, wussy, biased or great you think it is) only regulates shows. People with bank accounts govern the rest.

I’m bummed with all the peeps who show up, pay up and have some reason to do that. Wide-eyed “I didn’t know” is chief among them. That’s both the AHSA’s, USEF’s and community’s fault. It says to me that the horse show world is giving itself carte blanche to be surprised and outraged all over again when history repeats itself.

[OneGrayPony]

I agree mvp (I think this is what you are saying).

Had the AHSA/USEF done enough with regard to sanctions, and had Paul honorably bowed out of the sport, then perhaps this thread, and many like it would have died a long time ago.

Though his actions are not illegal, they are not ethical.

[worldclass777]

Someone would ride with him because they have forgiven him. Forgiveness IS an aspect of spirituality and to forgive is divine. What Michael Vick did was HORRIBLE but I forgive Michael Vick in spite of the fact that he killed canines. It does not make my blood boil to see Michael Vick playing football in the NFL just because I believe in a God of second chances.

I am sorry to make this post as I know there are people out there who are offended by my words. I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.

If you don’t like PV then don’t take lessons from him or buy horses from him. But you should not get enraged just because there are clients and trainers out there who practice forgiveness and truly believe PV is deeply sorry about the poor choices he made some 20 years ago.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=worldclass777;4534519]
I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.

If you don’t like PV then don’t take lessons from him or buy horses from him.

But you should not get enraged just because there are clients and trainers out there who practice forgiveness and truly believe PV is deeply sorry about the poor choices he made some 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Just like Michael Vick, Paul Valliere was responsible for his own actions and decisions and blaming it on the influence of others is bs. Pure as that. He was a grown man, well versed in the world in which he travells and he knew exactly what time it was. But nice try anyway.

And he has a funny way of showing how sorry he is when he thumbs his nose at the USEF, it’s rules, and all of us when he does all he can to circumvent them, and teach his clients via cell phones, assistant trainers, and two way radios at horse shows.
Sorry, not buying it.

[Acertainsmile]

Oh my, it’s alive again…

[OneGrayPony]

Someone would ride with him because they have forgiven him. Forgiveness IS an aspect of spirituality and to forgive is divine. What Michael Vick did was HORRIBLE but I forgive Michael Vick in spite of the fact that he killed canines. It does not make my blood boil to see Michael Vick playing football in the NFL just because I believe in a God of second chances.

Forgiveness is truly divine. I don’t disagree with you.

Michael Vick’s continued playing football in the NFL does not bother me because his crime was unrelated to football. If Michael Vick continued to own and breed dogs, then that would continue to bother me because ethically he should realize that he should never own another animal again.

Nor should pv.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=worldclass777;4534519]
Someone would ride with him because they have forgiven him. Forgiveness IS an aspect of spirituality and to forgive is divine. What Michael Vick did was HORRIBLE but I forgive Michael Vick in spite of the fact that he killed canines. It does not make my blood boil to see Michael Vick playing football in the NFL just because I believe in a God of second chances.

I am sorry to make this post as I know there are people out there who are offended by my words. I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.

If you don’t like PV then don’t take lessons from him or buy horses from him. But you should not get enraged just because there are clients and trainers out there who practice forgiveness and truly believe PV is deeply sorry about the poor choices he made some 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]

I think many of us consider electrocuting horses more than a poor choice. I guess that’s marginally better than “mistake” though.

By the way, are you inferring that a client threatened him with kill the horses or I will kill you? Or was it kill the horses or I’ll pull my business?

That’s sweet that you forgive Vick, too. Do you think he should go back to owning and making money off of pit bulls, like PV does with horses? I’d like to extend you an open invite to come meet some of the dogs that survived his kennels, who I now work with every day. But if you rode with him, perhaps you petted and worked around the now dead horses and just don’t care.

Forgiveness is one thing. Forgetfulness is another.

[mvp]

Point well taken but…

Worldclass77’s point about forgiveness is well taken. I also agree that people do (and ought to) their own criteria that lets them decide when and what they can forgive.

But forgiveness is fine when it comes with “ownership” of the bad decision. The “forgive me, I was just following orders” seems dangerous to me.

In this case, it hands responsibility to an owner-- the person who is most interested (financially) in trashing a horse worth more dead than alive, and who is least connected with the animal’s day-to-day well-being. Are these the people you want calling the shots?

I bring this up because horse ownership is going in this direction. More people now write checks and don’t stay super involved in their horse’s care than ever before.

I’m someone who has her horse’s joints injected, for example. Done to extremes (or without sufficient knowledge), I’m agreeing to shorten the comfortable phase of his life so that I can have soundness for my own purposes in the short term. I’m there for every vet appointment and part of every decision. But how much to I really know? I know that high levels of steroids in the blood can cause founder. I know there are injectable steroids of differing strengths and durations.

But if you left it up to me to decide what, when and how much of that juice was injected into which joints, it would be a bad thing.

It’s important that those with more knowledge than I take responsibility for their part in my horse’s care. My orders should not been squat when they compromise my horse’s well-being. If we forgive those who comply with bad orders, we ignorant owners aren’t even protecting ourselves from piss-poor consequences.

[RockinHorse]

@worldclass777;4534519

I I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.

Didn’t Paul have one of his own horses killed? How on earth did a client make him do that?

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;4534590]
Forgiveness is truly divine. I don’t disagree with you.

Michael Vick’s continued playing football in the NFL does not bother me because his crime was unrelated to football. If Michael Vick continued to own and breed dogs, then that would continue to bother me because ethically he should realize that he should never own another animal again.

Nor should pv.[/QUOTE]

Now I TOTALLY disagree with you about Michael Vick. I think he should HAVE to own a dog, and do it under the microscope of the press and the public. How else will he ever learn what wonderful creatures they are, and HOW FORGIVING, if he doesn’t REALLY take one into his personal life? Giving lip service to rescue work and anti-dog fighting is all well and good, but he will never learn to appreciate and love a dog until he has one sleeping on his bed.

[AW]

Totally disagree about Michael Vick. If he never knows how wonderful dogs are, that’s his great loss. And playing a game that he at least presumably loves for a living is such a privilege, not a right. To play said game for any money at all, much less millions of dollars, is a privilege that should have been taken from him by the NFL.

[OneGrayPony]

Now I TOTALLY disagree with you about Michael Vick. I think he should HAVE to own a dog, and do it under the microscope of the press and the public. How else will he ever learn what wonderful creatures they are, and HOW FORGIVING, if he doesn’t REALLY take one into his personal life? Giving lip service to rescue work and anti-dog fighting is all well and good, but he will never learn to appreciate and love a dog until he has one sleeping on his bed.

This is going to sound terrible but I am not sure that he is capable. Some people aren’t capable of seeing animals as anything but beasts of burden. You would have to follow MV around with a videocamera 24/7 in order to ensure that he wasn’t mistreating the dog. I just don’t find that to be practical.

I also don’t believe that you should put a child in the custody of a convicted child abuser “so that they can learn to love children”.

So sorry, too late, I’d rather err on the “let’s not endanger another creature” side.

[Silk]

[QUOTE=worldclass777;4526185]
So who has gone on record to say that he should serve his time and be forgiven? Any well known hunter jumper figures? Has the great GM offered any opinion on the life time ban?

(Sorry as I know that a lot of you really do want this thread to just go away…)[/QUOTE]

Didnt the “great GM” pay off a certain now-BNT to take a drugging fall for him years ago and set him/her up in a business on the west coast?

[findeight]

[edit]

BTW, said months ago (or was it years?) on this thread I forgive the guy, wish him no harm.

But I would not chose him to care for a horse and that is just my opinion and choice…really don’t mind if others do, their choice. Would those making an example of Vick for comparison put a beloved puppy in his care for training? Actually, IMO, MV did not know any better and probably still doesn’t get it given his background and life experience. Think PV did know better.

There are lots of trainers out there that are good. If anybody prefers PV for their own reasons, fine…but don’t go saying he is the best or there is nobody else on his level.

[Moesha]

[QUOTE=worldclass777;4534519]
I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.[/QUOTE]

I am so glad you brought this up. And not to even give any ounce of understanding, because I don’t .I just feel that he made his bed has to lay in it, but I hate how the owners are never mentioned, never got in trouble, and are sometimes made out to be victims, they called the shots.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=worldclass777;4534519]

I am sorry to make this post as I know there are people out there who are offended by my words. I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.
.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree the client got the whole ball rolling, but since unsaid client got that whole ball rolling now more like 30 years ago, Paul had lots of time to consider his actions before doing in his own horse.

[Moesha]

[QUOTE=Midge;4535492]
Oh, I agree the client got the whole ball rolling, but since unsaid client got that whole ball rolling now more like 30 years ago, Paul had lots of time to consider his actions before doing in his own horse.[/QUOTE]

Perfect!! I wish I could have gotten to that as articulatly!

[mvp]

I don’t want to by MV’s practice dog.

Undermining someone’s ability to make a (grand) living as a football player because of his sins in other aspects of life is hard to defend.

We don’t even require that presidents be squeaky-clean in their personal lives.

But allowing a horse trainer (or owner for that matter) to continue to benefit from having horses under their care seems entirely different to me.

With respect to the GM rumor. Talk about pressure! Who wouldn’t accept a USEF slap on the wrist in exchange for GM’s good word?

[Moesha]

[QUOTE=mvp;4535531]
I don’t want to by MV’s practice dog.

Undermining someone’s ability to make a (grand) living as a football player because of his sins in other aspects of life is hard to defend.

We don’t even require that presidents be squeaky-clean in their personal lives.

But allowing a horse trainer (or owner for that matter) to continue to benefit from having horses under their care seems entirely different to me.

With respect to the GM rumor. Talk about pressure! Who wouldn’t accept a USEF slap on the wrist in exchange for GM’s good word?[/QUOTE]

But you can see how many find that view double standard? People are convicted of things all the time that have nothing to do with their professional life and yet loose their jobs, licenses, ability to practice etc.

[War_Admiral]

[QUOTE=Midge;4535492]
Oh, I agree the client got the whole ball rolling, but since unsaid client got that whole ball rolling now more like 30 years ago, Paul had lots of time to consider his actions before doing in his own horse.[/QUOTE]

He also has had DECADES to consider whether it is prudent, ethical, moral, or in the best interest of the sport to flaunt the rules of USEF by continuing to coach via walkie-talkie, act as a judge on a non-rated day, and so on.

This type of conduct doesn’t exactly reek of genuine repentance, which is what forgiveness generally requires…in my opinion.