MISTAKE???
[QUOTE=RNB;5617033]
I’m not sure which is more frightening …the end of the world or the fact that some people still think PV made “a very poor business decision”.[/QUOTE]
Well, the defense of PV is one way to know that end of the world is coming, or that we are overdue for a big ol’ “we need to sort out the good from the bad.”
I think that part of the disgust that gives the PV discussion legs is that the sanctions weren’t hard enough initially. We can be just as disappointed in the USEF (it was still the AHSA?) as PV.
Character is who you are when no one is looking. I don’t associate with criminals, character can be contagious and nothing shows PV is leaning in the positive direction.
[QUOTE=alterbecauseimacoward;2659246]
So I’ve been searching online for stuff about Paul Valliere, because I’ve been taking a few lessons with him and wanted to know more about this whole horse-killing thing. Of course the Chronicle forums came up in my search, and y’all clearly really hate him. My question for you is: why? I mean, yes, it’s terrible that he had a horse electrocuted for the insurance money. But it was a mistake made like 10 years ago. So what exactly is the problem with him?[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding???
I guess if PV made a '‘bad decission’ and can still play in the horses I can make the bad decission of burning down my house ( for the insurance)I can just say I made a bad decission and still be able to walk around free and still be able to buy houses huh…
I have to wonder what type of role modle the guy is to those who appear to worship him and train with him knownig what he did…
Who was responsible for Henry The Hawk? He was one of the insurance deaths.
I remember that John Edward’s (politician) mistress and mother of his child had some connection to Henry The Hawk, and it was brought up in an old thread here.
OMG. I just looked it up and found this Wiki article"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_murders
I don’t know who wrote it, but both the article and the story are scandalous, in many different ways, especially if everything in the article is true.
It’s not so much that horses were killed; they could just as easily have been sent to slaughter through many different routes or sold at a loss. What makes it so evil is that they were deliberately killed to defraud the insurance companies, which means that the people who were doing it had to be treating them as money trees, not living beings. Is that viewpoint passed on from generation to generation?
Article says that Barney Ward was convicted for involvement in 4 deaths, but alleged to have been involved in more than 15. I wonder who insures Ward horses today?
A close friend of mine trained with him, and his belief was that you shouldn’t waste talent…he felt “we” (as a community) needed to forgive him for his sins. I told him we would have to politely agree to disagree. 
Because the man is a ciminal and obviously puts his own financial status above the welfare of the horses entrusted to his care. Aside for commiting insurance fraud by arranging to have a horse elctrocuated for insurance money, what about the fraud he committed by selling inappropriate horses to his clients for inflated prices? Is it true that USEF hasn’t sanctioned him for life? If so, that’s a crime IMO.
[QUOTE=Prime Time Rider;5618022]
Because the man is a ciminal and obviously puts his own financial status above the welfare of the horses entrusted to his care. Aside for commiting insurance fraud by arranging to have a horse elctrocuated for insurance money, what about the fraud he committed by selling inappropriate horses to his clients for inflated prices? Is it true that USEF hasn’t sanctioned him for life? If so, that’s a crime IMO.[/QUOTE]
Pretty good way to make a living. :no: Buy cheap horses, sell them to a confederate at an inflated price, insure them at the inflated price, and then kill them for the insurance.
My take on the man? He should be forced to pee on an electric fence.
[QUOTE=Eye in the Sky;5617986]
… his belief was that you shouldn’t waste talent…he felt “we” (as a community) needed to forgive him for his sins…[/QUOTE]
As a consumer of horse training and horses, I simply can’t afford the point of view PV (and to an extent, the USEF) advances.
To say that talent outranks the most basic ethics in importance means we should have many more like PV in the group of professionals we can pay. That puts your average joe in a tough spot. Most of our horses are “garbage” by the standards PV employed when killing the insured ones. Reading all the threads here that start “I can only afford this one… or, I can only afford one at a time” means we ought to be first in line to kill the ones that don’t work for us. It also means that our innate talent is unknown. It takes that plus opportunity, usually in the form of nice horses.
That’s the part that’s offensive to me. While PV is making a living and arguing that he should on the basis of “talent,” I’m enjoying limited success in the horse world because I pay for my mistakes in buying, training and managing horses.
In other words, PV makes a utilitarian argument for choosing one set of criteria over another-- talent vs. ethics. I’ll harden my heart and join him, if these are the rules of the game. But the same “end justifies the means” logic doesn’t actually for for anyone but PV.
Can anyone post a basic of list of those high profile people that were involved, that you would not want to do business with? (also where they are, and what they are doing) Also, if any of them have been reinstated. Thanks.
[QUOTE=my opinion matters;5616690]
They are both amazing trainers. PV has paid his dues. He made a very poor business decision 24 years ago and has paid dearly. In my opinion he has done his time. It is time to let it go and let the industry benefit from his talent.[/QUOTE]
Are you serious? I’m sorry, no crime is a “poor business decision”.
Buying the wrong horse for a client or for oneself is a poor decison. Killing a horse for the insurance money is not; it is a crime. And a cowardly one at that.
You are really missing something HUGE!
[QUOTE=worldclass777;4534519]
Someone would ride with him because they have forgiven him. Forgiveness IS an aspect of spirituality and to forgive is divine. What Michael Vick did was HORRIBLE but I forgive Michael Vick in spite of the fact that he killed canines. It does not make my blood boil to see Michael Vick playing football in the NFL just because I believe in a God of second chances.
I am sorry to make this post as I know there are people out there who are offended by my words. I rode with PV and still have a deep respect for him in spite of the fact that he fell under the influence of a super aggressive certain client who I will not name here.
If you don’t like PV then don’t take lessons from him or buy horses from him. But you should not get enraged just because there are clients and trainers out there who practice forgiveness and truly believe PV is deeply sorry about the poor choices he made some 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Everyone who was involved in the show circuit and knowledgeable about the cast of characters knew that PV and others were killing horses for insurance money and brokering the killings. What they eventually got prosecuted for was just the tip of the iceberg. This was more a lifestyle choice or a way of doing business for these people. Disposing of a horse that was worth more on the insurance papers than it could be sold for. I remember someone saying that Touch The Sun would be dead within 6 months of his last showing at indoors, and he was. Having an ounce of caring for horses (and very good ones at that) had nothing to do with it. Forgiveness has nothing to do with this either. You can’t forgive someone for who they ARE. PV and all of the rest are the very same people that they were then, nothing has changed.
As for Michael Vick, the NFL should simply take away the priveledge of playing for them from convicted felons. It’s a no brainer for me.
My mother has an age-old saying that I find to be true:
“When you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.”
I don’t think Frontline is approved for human use.
no words describe my thoughts on this man and his conspirators.
And for those of you that think he has talent, you really don’t get it.:no:
[QUOTE=Summit Springs Farm;5618266]
no words describe my thoughts on this man and his conspirators.
And for those of you that think he has talent, you really don’t get it.:no:[/QUOTE]
John Wayne Gacy was a pretty good painter…
[QUOTE=MrWinston;5618135]
I remember someone saying that Touch The Sun would be dead within 6 months of his last showing at indoors, and he was.[/QUOTE]
That’s horrendous, too. To me, it means a whole lot of people were looking the other way while horses and insurance companies were being used.
“Bad business decision” here means PV took a calculated risk. Morality with respect to horses aside, it’s illegal to defraud insurance companies this way. I don’t see how PV and his clients could not have known they were doing that. He was also cheating others in the same risk pool whose premiums would increase.
You can, of course, argue that there is no morality when it comes to doing business. You can (and should?) do whatever you can to maximize profits within legal limits.
Sorry for the rant. Post 2008-crash and bail out, I’m a bit sore about any argument that looks like “too big (too talented?) to fail” or “Hey, it was business. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you always exploit an opportunity that’s ahead of legal regulation that has real teeth.” The USEF and courts just didn’t have teeth enough for PV.
I think it would be much easier to extend forgiveness if the man showed even an ounce of remorse. Being a sly trainer is not showing remorse.
Slimy is the best word I can use to describe my views on PV.
I can’t remember the first name but Lindemann would be one, Cellular Farms IIRC. I actually had a supervisor at work in the early 90s who had dated him for several years shortly thereafter when he was into Dressage horses…and she said he said he didn’t know what the big deal was, always admitted it and wanted to plea bargain but got talked out of it by his pricey legal team. Small world.
These people are why you pay so much for insurance on a good horse and frequently have to wait for permission to put one down with a catastrophic injury. Basically, you can be treated like you are trying to kill it for money.
Thanks to one and all for that one. Oh, I do forgive him…and Mr Vick as well…but I do not do business with anybody with a criminal history and certainly would not send my horse or dog to either of them. At least Vick has gone to “rehab” and does not flaunt it by opening a dog training operation.
This thread gets bumped up about every 6 months or so just to keep all informed. For those responding to the OP…remember this is actually from 2007.
