Paul valliere

[zannebar]

I don’t buy products from companies that test on animals because I feel that it’s morally wrong. I don’t shop at Walmart because I feel that their business practices are morally wrong. I cancelled my subscription to a certain overpriced, glossy horse mag – and wrote them a letter explaining why – because I felt that their acceptance of a certain “trainer” was morally wrong. My money speaks for me.

I hope that the customers who continue to enable Valliere and his ilk to have careers in this industry sincerely believe in “forgive and forget” and aren’t merely justifying their choice of trainer for the sake of some blue silk.

[fiona]

“In 1994, Valliere admitted that he hired Tommy “The Sandman” Burns to electrocute his show horse, Roseau Platiere. Valliere wrote a check to pay Burns, who attached alligator clips to the horse’s nose and anus, and then plugged the wire into an outlet.” From the Providence Journal…

Because this story bears repeating.

[magnolia73]

This topic has been hashed out about a million times…

It sounds like PV provides quality service to his clients, clearly in good times. But I think you take a risk with anyone you put your horses with- God knows what people do that we don’t know about. The thing about PV is that he got caught breaking the law. You know the saying-- fool you once, shame on me, fool you twice, shame on you? You are working with someone with a past history of deplorable behavior. Obviously, he is comfortable with committing fraud and obviously comfortable with cruelty to animals. He may well be “reformed” and well… how many women assumed their husbands wouldn’t cheat again?

Maybe you will get lucky and only benefit from this person, or maybe you will get burned. Me, I’d find someone with a past that did not include fraud and animal cruelty to train my horses.

As to why people hate him- he knowingly killed an innocent horse to collect money in a fraudulent manner from an insurance company. There are an awful lot of people who would be homeless before their horse suffered any quality of life issue. There are many people who spend many dollars supporting unrideable horses out of duty. People just don’t relate to kill horse to get money in a positive way. I have a lot of trouble forgiving people who cause pain and suffering for animals… and then when the animals are your livelihood… that is just horrible.

What would he have to do? I don’t know- spend a couple of years shoveling poop at a horse rescue, rebuilding their fences and barns. He what, took out some ad talking about a donation he made??? Big deal. Kind of reminds me of the local politician who took bribes is headed to jail and wants to exchange his jail time for opening a free eye care clinic. Please, put some significant effort into helping animals and I might begin to forgive.

And I think one deterrant of crime is that it can and should in many cases ruin a life. My friend gets caught with drugs and she will NEVER be able to practice as a chiropracter again. 23 years of people shunning you is part of the punishment for a pretty weak system of justice. He should have thought about his reputation when he thought it was a great idea to kill horses for easy cash. In this business he’d have been better off robbing a bank or dealing drugs.

[RockinHorse]

And I thought the BB would be quiet on a holiday weekend:winkgrin:

I am in the ‘won’t forgive’ camp. I would not train with the man, buy a horse from him or in any other way support him. What he did disgusts me. It may be unfair but that feeling carries over to the people that DO support his as clients. I don’t knowingly associate with anyone who associates with him.

Geez, are ribbons THAT important? :rolleyes:

[Saddletramp_29]

I know of two different trainers that have beaten horses to death. I am not the only one who knows this information. These people are regulars at “AA”. Then there’s the whole Grand Sabor thing, not to mention the pipe. The girl who was the vet in all this insurance fraud got a little house arrest time and was rewarded with a national championship. I think that MaClain still trains with Barney, at least he doesn’t shun him, and the boy was close to the tree when all this happened. Horses are dieing from neglect and bad med programs at show venues all the time. And then there’s horse beaters. And fraud in sales. Years ago we had a trainer that sent someone to the hospital once a month, trying to get them to do something they couldn’t do. There are cheaters everywhere and they just keep on and on. And everyone lets them.

[Donkaloosa]

He’s a jackass. He killed one horse that we know of. How many does it take before you decide he’s an idiot? I wouldn’t trust that man as far as I could throw him. If he did it before, for money, he’s a greedy SOB who’d do it again, and quite likely has.

Donk (who really, truly hates that man)

[platinm]

[QUOTE=Saddletramp 29;2660533]
Then there’s the whole Grand Sabor thing, not to mention the pipe. The girl who was the vet in all this insurance fraud got a little house arrest time and was rewarded with a national championship. I think that MaClain still trains with Barney, at least he doesn’t shun him, and the boy was close to the tree when all this happened. Horses are dieing from neglect and bad med programs at show venues all the time. And then there’s horse beaters. And fraud in sales. Years ago we had a trainer that sent someone to the hospital once a month, trying to get them to do something they couldn’t do. [/QUOTE]

what?

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Saddletramp 29;2660533]
I know of two different trainers that have beaten horses to death. I am not the only one who knows this information. These people are regulars at “AA”. Then there’s the whole Grand Sabor thing, not to mention the pipe. The girl who was the vet in all this insurance fraud got a little house arrest time and was rewarded with a national championship. I think that MaClain still trains with Barney, at least he doesn’t shun him, and the boy was close to the tree when all this happened. Horses are dieing from neglect and bad med programs at show venues all the time. And then there’s horse beaters. And fraud in sales. Years ago we had a trainer that sent someone to the hospital once a month, trying to get them to do something they couldn’t do. There are cheaters everywhere and they just keep on and on. And everyone lets them.[/QUOTE]

And that is the primary thing that is wrong with our sport. People have knowlege of these things but no one speaks up because they don’t want to “make a scene”. Whatever. Right is right and wrong is wrong. We have a duty to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, be they for the horses against scum like PV and McClain Ward and all the others involved in this whole thing, or the small children against the child molesters that we know are among us. If we don’t clean up our own house, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the chickens come home to roost.

[lelevic]

[QUOTE=magnolia73;2660450]
This topic has been hashed out about a million times…

You know the saying-- fool you once, shame on me, fool you twice, shame on you? You are working with someone with a past history of deplorable behavior…[/QUOTE]

Actually, the saying goes “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

:winkgrin:

[horsekpr]

I am not in the forgive and forget camp on this one.Mistakes ,like AT,yes ,but horrendous acts of murder for profit,not so much. I am more of an eye for an eye kind of person. I would gladly place alligator clips in his nostrils and anus,and plug him in. After that ,I might think about forgiving him,maybe.
Earning a living with horses is a priviledge.If you are blessed to be truley talented ,and able to get to the top,then you have an obligation to care for your bread and butter as best you can. Brutally murdering the very creature who makes you earning your living possible,should result in you losing the priviledge to continue in that career.
Sure,PV is not the only scumbag,but it is sickening that people condone these acts and continue to ride with them. I would not give ,him,or anyone else that I knew to be guilty of murdering,or brutalizing horses,one cent of my money,I don’t care if riding with them would make me an Olympic champion. Barney Ward made Mclain an Olympian,but that is his father so I can’t really see him walking away from that situation,but I sure wouldn’t train with him. It has left me with a bad feeling about Mclain,however,and I will never cheer him on ,even though I have no proof that Mclain has ever done anything wrong. In my mind he is guilty by association ,as would be anyone who chooses to associate with a cold blooded murderer. If you lay down with dogs ,you get up with fleas.
Saying that many BNT are terribly brutal ,and criminal doesn’t justify the behavior. Maybe if more people were less tolerant ,then more trainers would behave better.

[xegeba]

The Code of Silence…

exists in every sport… at every level. Would you find it shocking to know the level of verbal and physical abuse that exists at the High School level for say… football? How many kids are too afraid to speak to even their parents about it? And if they do… how many parents are willing to keep their mouth shut… for fear of retribution to their child? Whistleblowers… while taking the high moral ground… pay an enormous price for being moral.

[dutchmike]

I know of two different trainers that have beaten horses to death. I am not the only one who knows this information. These people are regulars at “AA”. Then there’s the whole Grand Sabor thing, not to mention the pipe. The girl who was the vet in all this insurance fraud got a little house arrest time and was rewarded with a national championship. I think that MaClain still trains with Barney, at least he doesn’t shun him, and the boy was close to the tree when all this happened. Horses are dieing from neglect and bad med programs at show venues all the time. And then there’s horse beaters. And fraud in sales. Years ago we had a trainer that sent someone to the hospital once a month, trying to get them to do something they couldn’t do. There are cheaters everywhere and they just keep on and on. And everyone lets them.

If they only knew. Not even 10% of these @ssholes get caught. Any trainer that needs closed doors is a red flag and there are plenty of those

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=xegeba;2660631]
exists in every sport… at every level. Would you find it shocking to know the level of verbal and physical abuse that exists at the High School level for say… football? How many kids are too afraid to speak to even their parents about it? And if they do… how many parents are willing to keep their mouth shut… for fear of retribution to their child? Whistleblowers… while taking the high moral ground… pay an enormous price for being moral.[/QUOTE]

Just because it exists doesn’t make it right, and it has to stop somewhere. And no, believe me when I say that not much of anything shocks me anymore, not what we do to each other, our kids, or our animals.
I have blown plenty of whistles on various things, and have paid for it on many occasions, but the bottom line is I have to sleep with what I have done every night and look at myself in the mirror. And I can do both and know that I have done the right thing.

[MistyBlue]

The grooms LOVE the horses, the owners are highly involved, his wife has his back through EVERYTHING and ANYTHING

Yes…and Squeaky Frome stuck by Charles Manson.

The reason many people are not willing to ever forgive or forget is that we as equestrians need to speak up and stand up to this type of abuse in our own sport. I never buy into the “other sports have dirty secrets too” type of deal…I’m not in other sports so I can’t do anything about it because I neither support those sports nor work in them.
But…we ARE in the equine sport/business. When we allow past deeds such as this become less over time…we are shooting our own sport in the foot.
The actual powers that are in place to prevent these types of people to eventually come back into success and income in this sport are pathetically soft on crimes like this. Always have been…always will be. The good ol’ boys and girls standing up for one another. It’s up to the smaller us to bring in the noisy protests and clean up our own sport.
This type of criminal behavior should not be tolerated ever. I, personally, do not wish for my passion, my sport and my chosen career to allow this and condone it. When we give up morality for 5 cent ribbons because they make us feel special…well, it’s pathetic.

[shmeg_33]

[QUOTE=Kinsella;2660209]
I suppose they should release Charles Manson too, huh? And, really those child molesters in the business, hey, it was a mistake - we should forgive them and forget their crimes too! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[xegeba]

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;2660640]
Just because it exists doesn’t make it right, and it has to stop somewhere. And no, believe me when I say that not much of anything shocks me anymore, not what we do to each other, our kids, or our animals.
I have blown plenty of whistles on various things, and have paid for it on many occasions, but the bottom line is I have to sleep with what I have done every night and look at myself in the mirror. And I can do both and know that I have done the right thing.[/QUOTE] Jaeger… it exists because people are afraid. They know it is wrong… but they are not willing to suffer the consequences that they KNOW they will suffer… to out a wrongdoing. The poster donkeyman posted about what he/she experienced as a teenager… and is getting slammed for not blowing the whistle. When ADULTS are too chicken to blow that whistle… how in the world does someone expect a child to have the balls to do it?

[magnolia73]

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

Oh GOD, I’m like GWB misquoting that saying. How embarassing.
Don’t get fooled again!

[BarbB]

@horsekpr;2660629

Maybe if more people were less tolerant ,then more trainers would behave better.

And THAT is where the power really lies.

[xegeba]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;2660660]
Yes…and Squeaky Frome stuck by Charles Manson.

The reason many people are not willing to ever forgive or forget is that we as equestrians need to speak up and stand up to this type of abuse in our own sport. I never buy into the “other sports have dirty secrets too” type of deal…I’m not in other sports so I can’t do anything about it because I neither support those sports nor work in them.
[/QUOTE] Misty… this is not a notion that you need to buy into. The “theory” that it happens in other sports is not mentioned to somehow lessen the offense or make it okay. Rather… it is a reality …THE Whistleblowers pay a price… and that is why the abuse happens to horses and human beings. It may be sick and twisted… and it is… but it is REALITY. And don’t discount the fact that ugly things are happening to children… in the name of sport… that countless adults and children know about… but they are AFRAID to talk about it.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=xegeba;2660692]
Jaeger… it exists because people are afraid. They know it is wrong… but they are not willing to suffer the consequences that they KNOW they will suffer… to out a wrongdoing. The poster donkeyman posted about what he/she experienced as a teenager… and is getting slammed for not blowing the whistle. When ADULTS are too chicken to blow that whistle… how in the world does someone expect a child to have the balls to do it?[/QUOTE]

Believe me, I understand that. I have been a cop for 17 years and have worked in the ghetto of ghettos for most of that, so believe me when I say I get it. But that still doesn’t mean that we should just accept it as the status quo. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Nobody slammed donkeyman, but I can’t imagine as a 16 year old being manhandled like that and not at least telling my parents. As long as people tolerate this behavior and live in fear of these types of people, nothing will ever change and they will make the rules. People need to vote with their feet and their pocketbooks. Silence to me is support by omission.
If no one ever had the nads to speak up for change, blacks would still be picking cotton and women would not have the vote.

One voice might be a squeak, many squeaks can make a roar.