@Virginia Horse Mom I have less empathy than you because my friend and mentor is sitting in prison. Safe sport doesn’t send people to prison. They just say you can’t participate in the luxury sport pet club. (Credit for that term goes to another cother)
When he was arrested, not yet convicted, we all ditched him. You don’t get tracked by the feds because someone had a problem with you.
“The only known case that got dropped”?!
According to the Pulitzer Center report cited above, since 2017 there have been 5,000 reports to SafeSport, of which only 627 have resulted in sanctions. Granted some of those cases may still be unresolved, but it nonetheless seems clear that a majority of reports to SafeSport are found to be not worthy of sanctions (which could be for a variety of reasons).
Yep, you are most definitely one of the people all over these threads with a highly vociferous but yet dismally Uneducated , or perhaps not more than tangentially uninformed, opinion. ”only known case”… only known to YOU. And yet you and a few others run your mouth like you know what you are talking about.
the recent comments on someone who passed away and NEVER shows up on SS- disgusting. You all actually lower your own credibility with this kind of stuff. I’ve stayed in and out with these threads and TBh you and VHM and others have posted quite a few thoughtful posts- but your blindness to consider anything other than SS has it EXACTLY RIGHT RIGHT NOW makes you a non consequential voice in any meaningful discussion
it would be really a great exercise if someone with more time, and frankly more of a GAF, spent some time figuring out who you are, and what transgressions you have committed in your life that are public record and shared theml all here for all of us fandoms to pick through and judge. And before you doth protest too much, they are there and they are out there (see how fun that feels to be on the opposite end of a false accusation?) perhaps LEXInva can help with this one.
Yes and we are talking about people who supposedly made the temporary sanction list in the horse world so we can toss the total numbers out the window right now. Safe Sport deals with a lot of sports not just ours.
I haven’t seen many changes to the list and lord knows if a BNT was put on it erroneously we would have heard about it. So yes I think that poster is talking about TS.
I don’t think the system is perfect by all means. Mostly because it’s underfunded. I actually suggested to my step mom to look into getting hired as a former detective and the person they would call if they had a jumper to talk them down.
I see all sides and I have sure as heck seen why it’s needed.
You want me to believe another BNT was accused and there wasn’t a whisper about it? Okay then.
How exactly do I lower my credibility? Is it by speaking of my experiences talking to victims of rape and sexual assault? Is it by having a former friend in prison? Is it my training in programs put in place that resemble Safe Sport? Or is it by working in the real world and having to abide by a standard of conduct which if I violate results in at best really crappy job prospects and at worst jail time?
Please explain with specifics. Your vagueness damages any argument you wish to make.
And please don’t threaten to stalk me that is just weird. I can assure you though, I have nothing in my background that warrants a second look. I have a security clearance courtesy of the Feds.
I am going to try and ignore some personally sharp jabs, and actually engage.
Number 1… I am NOT aware of 6 people going on and off the list in equestrian sport over the course of the last year. I am aware of one individual who experienced that in 2018. Like most others… I read what was shared about his experience. It sounded awful. I can understand that person, and his family and friends having a very negative opinion on Safe Sport.
I’ve checked the Safe Spoet list periodically since Junw of last year. The only name I remember in the last 19 months going on it, then getting removed, was that of a Jonathan Soresi. His case was overturned on appeal. Safe Sport actually wanted him ON the list. I’m pretty sure Athletes for Equity, and everyone following this topic is aware of why he went on the list. There are different opinions regarding the decision by the arbitrator. But I doubt he is one of the folks in equestrian sport who you are referring to.
So a question for you. Is it possible that you know of 6 people who were accused of something by Safe Sport within the last year, and underwent an investigation process, who experienced a lot of stress (I’m sure), and have complaints about the investigators? But who were not actually publicly named and put up on the USEF and Safe Sport lists while they were CB undergoing the investigation? That seems like it could totally be a possibility. But if their name wasn’t actually publicly put forward… other than the stress of this experience… how were they harmed?
I do not know about figure skating and gymnastics other than what I have read in national publications. I do actually follow some significant people on Twitter who actually are very much ANTI Safe Sport though. Including an attorney named John Manley. The issues in gymnastics are AWFUL. And different than in equestrian sport. The NGB in gymnastics, and some of its leaders were bluntly… corrupt. Actively covered up allegations because of lawsuit risk that threatened to bankrupt the NGB and destroy one of the most lucrative Olympic disciplines. That whole situation is still unfolding.
So as far as drinking kool aid… that’s not exactly on point for myself. I’m following some specific anti Safe Sport stories pretty closely. The difference between the folks on that side of multiple gymnastics scandals, and the folks in the equestrian community, is that the gymnastic people are very much victim advocates. They are very angry at defensive maneuvers and coverups by the NGB because of lawsuit risk. I don’t blame them. They seem to believe Safe Sport was actually initially almost PART of a lawsuit mitigation strategy in the beginning. I can see the pony they are making. Their anger extends well beyond Safe Sport, and rightfully includes the USOPC. Equestrian objections to Safe Sport are VERY different in nature. And AFE formed in the wake of the George Morris decision. There has been an incredible amount of very public and very ugly victim blaming within equestrian sport. The pushback against Safe Sport is almost entirely focused on protecting professionals businesses. What proposals has Athletez for Equity actually put forward that speak to protecting CHILDREN from predatory coaches? I can’t actually think of any. Please correct me and point one out though if I am overlooking something.
If you feel strongly that no name should be published on any list until an investigation is completed… I can understand that opinion. Others might argue against it, but if that “reform” helped different sides come together on this topic, I could support that.
But I think these folks will not come together over that one issue. The objections are bigger than that, and very focused on defending specific people who did almost certainly engage in sexual relationships with minor students. Do you disagree?
Packy came up because he is vociferously anti-safe sport, on these boards, so much so that the athletes for child molesters, er, equity are raising money for their cause in his name, and yet some friends are agitating for usea to create an award in his name. Which is clearly a horrible and tone deaf plan.
No one brought packy into this, he brought himself in, and he was --again-- so personally invested against safe sport that the anti safe sport lobby are trying to profit from his death.
It’s insane.
He posted on this thread.
Not every report results in an investigation, yet alone putting someone on the list. So clearly the hysteria over unfounded allegations is a bit overdone.
I think we are all talking over one another, and getting confused.
None of us knows if the 5000 reports made to Safe Sport, how many of those reports resulted in an ACCUSED individual actually having their name PUBLICLY PUT OUT on a list while they were being investigated.
I’m not trying to shout at you… I just want to be really specific and clear.
In all fairness, we do absolutely know of one person, who is involved in equestrian sport and did go through this EXACT experience. TS. The new poster said there were 6 within the last year. I am not aware of 6 names going on and off the PUBLIC USEF list in the same way TS experiences in the last year.
For the record… if you, or the new poster, or someone else says that this DID happen, as the person who started this thread… seriously… please do share that. That is alarming.
If instead, it’s a matter of 6 people getting accused of something in the last year, but not actually getting sanctioned… That makes sense to me and seems entirely possible. I’m sure it is a horribly stressful thing for an innocent person to experience.
I also am willing to pause right now and co spider these numbers… 5000 reports that resulted in 627 individuals eventually being Sam ruined. Frankly… I think those numbers are a good argument in terms of Safe Sport waiting until their own investigation is complete and they have ruled, before putting a name up on any list.
My guess is they are indeed slow with investigations, and imperfect. Frankly… and this might surprise many folks following this topic… but I’m actually almost always a “less is more” type of person philosophically when it comes to many types of government organizations with power and regulations of all sorts of different activities. Because incompetence is FREQUENTLY a serious concern, sooner or later. So I am quite open to hearing from voices on the other side about totally incompetent, unfair, and unjust processes and experiences and thinking about them.
And even though I do indeed personally know victims of abuse, and have personal experiences, I also am absolutely willing to consider that people who are unjustly accused are ALSO victims. Victims of an imperfect process. Imperfection in many areas of life happens. The world is not a just or fair place. Our criminal justice system is indeed imperfect. And prejudices of all sorts exist, against any number of people. Even against old white men actually these days. Just my opinion, but I personally know of someone who got railroaded by an employer on a non Safe Sport related topic rather recently precisely because of the optics of the accusation and the accuser and it was an awful experience, and makes me sad.
I wish life was more fair all around. But fairness is a tricky thing and I’m a believer in the same rules for everyone, and evenhandness when it comes to the here and now.
So I hope the folks who automatically assume that I am blind to any critique of Safe Sport might pause for a second… and think about this comment. And for the record, I am quite open to supporting a very specific argument to NOT publish the names of accused people on any list until AFTER an investigation is complete and a ruling has been made.
I know some victims who will argue against that, and I understand why. But I think TS case, and others, should be considered as well. It’s all INCREDIBLY tough.
I think we all know safe sport isn’t perfect. The thing for me is, the people apart of and who support AFE make vague claims. If you want to change my mind show me data. Don’t just throw out random numbers and claim “it’s too hard to talk about” or say many law makers are working with us and not say who, or as Packy did, say many attorneys, and then not answer who. I’m all about hearing the other side. I won’t really care if it’s consistently “OMG all these people have hardships over this! OMG you don’t know but so many lawyers agree with me!” And leave it at that. Show me numbers, tell me who, or vent and realize I will not take you seriously.
Also, for the love of god don’t act like a ban from the USEF will ruin someone’s career. Quit lying to yourself.
It’s a bit overdone from your point if you have not been involved in it. I’ve seen many posts from people saying that No ONE would EVER use SS to advance a vindictive agenda. The numbers quoted above speak otherwise. And sure, maybe some of those 5000 didn’t end up on “the list” but quite a few did… and it took all that time and money to work through that and in the end SS dropped them but they still spent all that time and money investigating to the detriment of REAL cases.
VHM, I have for the most part found your posts (albeit long and wordy) to be thoughtful. Denali is mostly a loudmouth write off. And if that person thinks I’m going to waste time stalking them- not even worth my time.
your last two paragraphs are exactly what a lot of people have been saying- and be clear, a lot of people who have issues w SS are NOT GM apologists. Take the time to complete a prelim investigation. If that had happened the people I PERSONALLY am aware of would never have come in the list- and some of the “up in arms” right now would be a lot more muted. I’m actually also personally aware of someone who had a similar accusation lodged against them and SS gave them the courtesy of a call to explain their side due to personal relationships within the org- so their deal was resolved completely privately and no public shame. Do you think that is fair??? Just because YOU have only been “keeping track” of the list for less than a year doesn’t mean this wasn’t happening for longer than that.
But again, re Tommy Serio, or everyone’s only example, safe sport electing to not move forward or not finding enough evidence for sanctions doesn’t necessarily mean that the report or claims were false. Just like actual criminal cases, and the overwhelming majority of sexual harassment or assault claims, only a miniscule fraction move forward from the complaint. That does not mean they are fake.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post from someone saying No One would EVER use SS to advance a vindictive agenda. Can you point me to one?
I love dismissive people who refuse to show proof of their arguments because “it’s too hard.” All I’m asking for is clarification on these vague statements. Yet no one can. Funny how that works. If you want people like myself to take your arguments seriously answer the damn questions. If you can’t out of respect for the person say so. Don’t claim emotional distress because your friend acted like an asshat or tolerates crappy clients because they have money.
As far as the threat, no I don’t think you’d waste your time doing it. As you said you wish someone would. Getting a lackey to do your work for you seems to be par for course at times. You can blame them. Don’t bring things up unless you can stand by them on your own two feet.
But they are my friend and it was emotionally devastating for me to see this happen to them. I can’t do anything more than lash out at people on the internet with vague arguments!!!
Seriously though, you think they have the capability to consider all sides?
@Analternateperspective this link below is about my former friend and mentor. I walked away the second I heard about his arrest. This maybe our disconnect. I don’t stand by people who find themselves in these kinds of situations. If a person behaves in a manner or takes clients who would falsely accuse them of such things, I will not have a relationship with them. Friendship, business or otherwise.
https://www.thefallonpost.org/news/609,sexual-assault-conviction-for-richard-alexander
Obviously. There are a multitude of reasons why a complaint might not result in a SS sanction:
There may be other reasons I’m not thinking of.
Since so few complaints ultimately result in a proven violation, it becomes a real question whether or when the names of accused individuals should be published. I think it’s very fair-minded of VHM to consider that maybe names shouldn’t be published until a violation is proven. Based on the presentations by Michael Henry, I actually think SS might be inclined to agree with that, EXCEPT in the circumstance where they are concerned about an ongoing, present danger. The latter is a difficult situation where there is no solution that will get it 100% right all the time.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe just because a complaint is made someone ends up on the interim suspension list. From what I gather a complaint is investigated and either found to not have sufficient evidence or it does to continue further. I also am under the understanding that if people are placed on the interim suspension list it’s shown that they present an immediate danger to the reporting party or others. So just because someone is reported to have done something doesn’t mean they end up on the list.
Because of this I find the fact that six people were placed on Anderson off the sanction list so quick no one noticed to be an exaggeration. Especially since 1.25 cases end up resulting in a sanction in the entirety of the sports world.
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