People Attempting to Undermine Safe Sport

[smoofox]

@Atlas Shrugged

I have lasted 45 years in the profession and I don’t tell lawyer jokes to other lawyers the same way I don’t tell blonde jokes to other blondes - it just isn’t that funny- hey at least I can spell “favorite” - And I am laughing pretty hard at the level of maturity on here

I am laughing at the level of maturity in your posts but not “pretty hard”… just in a sad sort of way. I am blonde. I tell blonde jokes to my blonde friends. We all laugh. It is funny.

FAVOURITE is as correct as FAVORITE on a forum like this with posters from assorted countries and backgrounds. One would think that any well educated lawyer type with 45 years of experience would realize that. I still tend to spell neighbOUR… colOUR… etc. as that was how I learned it - and being here 20 years has not changed that.

But if that is the hill you choose to stand on in order to sneer and find fault… have at it.

A bit of advice though - approach the bench… counselor - when you post a drama queen flouncing exit, continuing to post after that is just a bit… lame.

[poltroon]

@Atlas Shrugged

Seriously? That’s your take-away from my suggestion that we educate our children about what abuse looks like? You think that a congressional designation in the form of SS as it affects Olympic sports is going to prevent sexual perversions of those in power? Rather than making ridiculous criticisms of earnest suggestions, perhaps you can offer something worthwhile, as you claim is sorely lacking? Let’s here some good ideas- besides keeping kids in the dark and hoping SS will save them

Well, for one thing, the suggestion suggests to me that you know very little about the topic of child sexual abuse, if for no other reason than such programs, educating kids about appropriate boundaries and encouraging them to talk to a trusted adult, are common in public schools and other venues for a decade or two at the very least. The beginnings of such programs started in the 1970s.

As one educator puts it though, we spend a lot of time teaching kids how not to be raped, and probably not enough time teaching kids how not to rape. That has been the main change in the past 5 years or so. Comedian Sarah Silverman turned around the common tips we give to women and children to make her “Rape Prevention Tips” and it’s pretty sobering to see them written that way.

So my answer is, yes, I think programs like that are good and appropriate; good news, they’re already in place; bad news, they haven’t stopped abuse of power or sexual abuse in sports.

If you want just one example of why not, look at some of the accusers of Larry Nasser. This story has been extensively reported with a lot of detail that may help create some clarity about why this hasn’t been sufficient. The problem there wasn’t always that the girls didn’t know to speak out, but rather that all the systems dismissed every girl who came forward as confused and every complaint as invalid. The systems might have worked better if each time there was a complaint there was one entity that knew about them all.

[poltroon]

This podcast series, “Believed,” has been posted earlier in these various discussions, but I’m reposting for anyone who might have missed it. I think if you want to talk intelligently about SafeSport on either side of the argument, it’s essential to listen or read the transcript of the series in its entirety. This case is not the only reason for the Safe Sport Act but it is probably the event to get it on to the agenda as pretty much the only substantive bipartisan federal legislation to be passed since 2016.

Larry Nassar was incredibly respected and trusted, a big name, an athlete advocate, and a lot of well-meaning adults were fooled by him. He abused not only athletes but the daughter of a family friend and people who came to him for medical treatment as a sports medicine doctor outside of his direct work for USA Gymnastics. He was interviewed and exonerated by not only Team officials, but by police officers and university staff. But most of the people who had the power to stop him either only knew about one accusation, or had a lot of personal investment in trusting him, or both.

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510326/believed

This incident is from 2004, 12 years before charges finally stuck. In Episode 3, the incident is described in detail, which I have not included here. The girl described in this case is not a gymnast, but a person seeking care for scoliosis.

SMITH: Brianne is so disoriented, she wants to just run out of there.

WELLS: But Larry is trying to schedule weekly appointments with this teenage girl. They’re talking about dates and times. And when she’s finally able to leave that exam room, Larry gives her a big hug.

SMITH: At home later that night, Brianne and Ellen sit down. She tells her mom everything.

RANDALL-GAY: I think I hadn’t fully realized that it was wrong. I felt like it was weird. And I was like - oh, wow, my mom’s taking this really seriously.

SPECKMAN-RANDALL: And I said - well, what do you want to do? What do you think we should do? And she said, I want to go to the police. I said, OK. We’re going.

WELLS: They went to police that very night, then to the hospital for the rape exam that we told you about earlier. The next step is for the police to question Dr. Larry Nassar.

One of the things I think would help significantly in having a better conversation about SafeSport is for people to take the time to really educate themselves about sexual abuse, sexual harassment, abuse of power, and the like outside of the context of COTH and even equestrian. So often these threads are filled with people upset about rules like that adults shouldn’t be individually texting minors - as if that was an essential tenet of horsemanship since Xenophon! - and they present it as some sort of new idea just from USEF, when in fact rules like this are long-fought and tried and true in youth organizations of all types. This rule protects athletes, yes, but more to the point it protects adults, to teach them what is appropriate behavior so that the adults don’t get close to any lines, and to give adults protection in cases of misunderstandings.

All the rules and guidelines that have come forth from the Safe Sport Act and SafeSport are old, established, normal in other situations, generally learned the hard way. Equestrian has been insulated and isolated from those norms, so they feel new and scary. I encourage people upset and frustrated with SafeSport to take some time and get really familiar with the other side of the argument, why these rules were created, the awful awful cases that made them important, and then, from that knowledge, from seeing the situation in other venues at arms length where you don’t know the people involved, then you’ll be equipped to have good discussions about how to make it better.

I’m here for better.

[SolarFlare]

Today’s email:

Athletes for Equity in Sport continues to search for the truth between the information published by The Center for SafeSport and US Equestrian vs. the experiences of attorneys and athletes navigating the SafeSport process. To that end of searching for truth, AES has filed a FOIA ( Freedom Of Information Act) request with the FBI for records and training sessions as claimed by US Equestrian in its May magazine. AES continues to request data from The Center of SafeSport, however to date, there has not been a response in over 10 months (as they do not respond to FOIA requests). AES is seeking information on behalf of reporters/claimants who have shared their disappointment with the SafeSport process. Contact us.

Attached in this AES Newsletter 005 is the AES letter to the FBI and supporting US Equestrian material which AES would like documentation for.

May 27, 2020

Special Agent in Charge- Michael Schneider
Federal Bureau of Investigations- Denver
8000 East 36[SUP]th[/SUP] Avenue
Denver, CO 80238

Dear Agent Schneider:

My name is Kelly K. Cormaci, RHU, MFSc. I am the Vice President of Athletes for Equity in Sport Inc., a non-profit organization advocating on behalf of athletes, coaches, trainers and others impacted by the U.S. Center for SafeSport (the “Center”). As stated on their website:

“The Center opened its doors in Denver, Colorado, in March 2017, and soon after became federally authorized under the Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse and Safe Sport Authorization Act of 2017 (which became Public Law No: 115-126 on February 14, 2018). Under this law, we develop resources and policies to safeguard athletes from bullying, harassment, hazing, physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and sexual misconduct. The law entrusts the Center as the exclusive authority to respond to reports of allegations of sexual abuse and sexual misconduct within the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee and their recognized National Governing Bodies (NGBs).”

U.S. Center for SafeSport, in their marketing material provided to the public, has represented that all the investigators employed by SafeSport, “…receive training developed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on how to conduct forensic interviews, as well as other investigatory training. Training is conducted annually to ensure investigators are well equipped and resourced to conduct thorough investigations”.

What we have found in our research to date is that there is no evidence supporting the claim that the FBI is conducting training of the SafeSport investigators. Like most other entities, the policies and procedures attendant to training are made available to the public to verify the veracity of their statement, but SafeSport has not made this information transparent.

I have a Masters in Forensic Behavioral Science and did an internship at the Miami Federal Bureau of Investigation in July of 2014. I am familiar with the methods, models and testing utilized in interviewing victims, perpetrators and children as victims and witnesses. The methods and models in use by the Center’s investigators as reported by those involved in the SafeSport process do not appear to conform to the FBI’s high standards.

I would like to utilize my right through the Freedom of Information Act, to request from the FBI the following information: [LIST=1]

Any and all correspondence between U.S. Center for SafeSport or its representatives in any way related to the procurement of training of the Center’s investigators by the Center.

Any and all records, documents, correspondence, handwritten or typed notes or other information or data, in either written, typed or electronic form, related in any way to any investigative training you have provided to the U.S. Center for SafeSport investigators, past or present if any. [/LIST] We have requested this disclosure from the U.S. Center for SafeSport via letter multiple times under FOIA and they have yet to provide us with a reply.

I look forward to receiving this information at the address above.

Sincerely,

Kelly

Kelly K. Cormaci, MFSc
Vice President, Athletes for Equity in Sport Inc.

US Equestrian Magazine May 2020 statement:

Thank you to our members who have joined AES in this important and necessary work by donating to Athletes for Equity in Sport. Designated donations for lobbyist effort are increasing as sportsmen and women, owners and stakeholders from gymnastics, skating, wrestling, boxing, cycling, equestrian, and fencing are joining in support of AES. The Sheridan Group in Washington DC is AES’s registered Lobbyist.

The Packy McGaughan GoFundMe campaign is also available. This campaign is in honor of Packy who was committed to AES and the changes that must be achieved in SafeSport procedure. Packy’s leadership and connections in Washington DC, prior to suddenly passing away in early March of 2020, have been invaluable. Donations go directly to the legislative effort in DC for changes into the SafeSport procedures.

Note: I edited out the links so the post would be approved.

Also, as I’m not in the US so I’m not as familiar with your privacy laws: is SS subject to FOIA? I know here we have exceptions on what is included in requests. I’m wondering if the reason they’re not responding to FOIA is because they aren’t supposed to, and AES is using that to make them look bad?

ETA - also #2: they are twisting words. The SS statement says they are using training “developed by” the FBI, and AES is saying their research hasn’t found that the FBI is “conducting” training for SS. It’s literally right there in their own letter.

[poltroon]

SafeSport is an independent 501©(3) nonprofit organization and though IANAL, I’m pretty sure they’re not subject to FOIA requests, which only apply to the federal government.

This handy form gives you a list of all the contact information for the agencies that are subject to FOIA requests: https://www.foia.gov

[Midge]

They say Safe Sport does not respond to FOIA requests, as if they have filed one. No, they haven’t. They cannot. I also noticed that about the training being ‘developed by’ not ‘given by’.

So, are they just so casual, that they aren’t paying attention, or do they think their customers are so stupid, they won’t know the difference?

[Midge]

They say Safe Sport does not respond to FOIA requests, as if they have filed one. No, they haven’t. They cannot. I also noticed that about the training being ‘developed by’ not ‘given by’.

So, are they just so casual, that they aren’t paying attention, or do they think their customers are so stupid, they won’t know the difference?

[ladyj79]

@Midge

So, are they just so casual, that they aren’t paying attention, or do they think their customers are so stupid, they won’t know the difference?

Their target market is themselves…

[neigh]

[QUOTE=poltroon;n10664211]
SafeSport is an independent 501©(3) nonprofit organization and though IANAL, I’m pretty sure they’re not subject to FOIA requests, which only apply to the federal government.

This handy form gives you a list of all the contact information for the agencies that are subject to FOIA requests: https://www.foia.gov[/QUOTE

It appears to me that neither the Center for Safe Sport nor The FBI is subject to the FOIA. Maybe someone should clue in Kelly Cormaci.

I find it appalling that this group has chosen to use Packy McGaughan’s name for fundraising without asking the permission of his family.

[neigh]

It appears to me that neither the Center for Safe Sport nor The FBI is subject to the FOIA. Maybe someone should clue in Kelly Cormaci.

I find it appalling that this group has chosen to use Packy McGaughan’s name for fundraising without asking the permission of his family.

[ghst13]

[quote="“neigh,post:845,topic:463807”]

@poltroon

SafeSport is an independent 501©(3) nonprofit organization and though IANAL, I’m pretty sure they’re not subject to FOIA requests, which only apply to the federal government.

This handy form gives you a list of all the contact information for the agencies that are subject to FOIA requests: https://www.foia.gov[/QUOTE

It appears to me that neither the Center for Safe Sport nor The FBI is subject to the FOIA. Maybe someone should clue in Kelly Cormaci.

I find it appalling that this group has chosen to use Packy McGaughan’s name for fundraising without asking the permission of his family.

The FBI is subject to FOIA, they are included under the Department of Justice. However there are a number of categories of information that are excluded from such requests (national security, investigations, personal information, etc). I don’t think whether they communicated with Safesport on training would be excluded, but have no idea what the timeline for responses is.

[ladyj79]

[quote="“neigh,post:845,topic:463807”]

@poltroon

SafeSport is an independent 501©(3) nonprofit organization and though IANAL, I’m pretty sure they’re not subject to FOIA requests, which only apply to the federal government.

This handy form gives you a list of all the contact information for the agencies that are subject to FOIA requests: https://www.foia.gov[/QUOTE

It appears to me that neither the Center for Safe Sport nor The FBI is subject to the FOIA. Maybe someone should clue in Kelly Cormaci.

I find it appalling that this group has chosen to use Packy McGaughan’s name for fundraising without asking the permission of his family.

Do we know they didn’t ask Judy? That said, Packy was a middle aged guy who was a member and supporter of the pedo support group, I’m not sure that they really needed to ask permission.

[Laurierace]

God help them if they ever do get a transcript of the hearing’s proceedings. I think they will be in for a very rude awakening that they will somehow still manage to dismiss.

[SolarFlare]

@poltroon

SafeSport is an independent 501©(3) nonprofit organization and though IANAL, I’m pretty sure they’re not subject to FOIA requests, which only apply to the federal government.

This handy form gives you a list of all the contact information for the agencies that are subject to FOIA requests: https://www.foia.gov

Thank you - I went to the link, and I also don’t see that SafeSport is on their list to select. If I go to “Start a Request”, it makes you choose an agency, and SS is not on the list so it would appear they are not subject to FOIA.

[Midge]

@ladyj79

Their target market is themselves…

Well, they also “fundraise” and this type of fake information is exactly what these groups do to get supporters up in arms. “They are ignoring FOIA requests!!1” “They lied about being trained by the FBI!!1!!!”

[skydy]

@Midge

They say Safe Sport does not respond to FOIA requests, as if they have filed one. No, they haven’t. They cannot. I also noticed that about the training being ‘developed by’ not ‘given by’.

So, are they just so casual, that they aren’t paying attention, or do they think their customers are so stupid, they won’t know the difference?

I noticed that right off the bat. The training was “developed by the FBI”, not given by them.
Not surprising that AES are making fools of themselves. Again.

[LexInVA]

@SolarFlare

The Sheridan Group in Washington DC is AES’s registered Lobbyist.

For those of you who don’t know anything about TSG, that firm is focused on LGBTQ matters and pushing legislative actions to benefit those individuals. News articles indicate that the firm apparently did many great things in the time when AIDS and discrimination were rampant. Without reading what I’ve put below or thinking about it for longer than fifteen seconds, you’d probably be wondering why they would be involved with AES, as sports matters and SafeSport really aren’t in their wheelhouse, if you look at their CV and whatnot.

Well, the obvious and foremost reason is AES’s LGBTQ members/supporters/allies and because a growing number of LGBTQ individuals are now on the banned list, due to abuse investigation findings or existing criminal dispositions and records of bad personal conduct that disqualify them from participating. Some of these individuals, like GM, had been the focus of conclusive investigations that covered many years of professional conduct within respective sports and uncovered an extensive history of abusing children or young adults and many others were caught abusing or attempting to abuse with the assistance/involvement of other LGBTQ within or around the sports or were rounded up and charged in online child protection sting operations and charged with a variety of things or simply got into trouble because of the substance abuse issues that have long been a cornerstone of the culture, so the optics that come with taking up the cause of AES are really not good at all for this firm and the “Equal Rights” cause they claim to have championed for decades. Especially with more LGBTQ victims - as in individuals who are LGBTQ - now coming forward to SafeSport with claims of being abused as children or young adults by older LGBTQ individuals working in the sports, who recognized them as potential prey and deliberately approached and groomed them with promises of “a safe and inclusive” environment that led to abuse and exploitation, as GM and his cohorts had done for decades.

[ladyj79]

Thanks lex, and there’s the intersectional crisis I said was coming when Robert dover started his GoFundMe for Morris

You arent supporting gay people being oppressed, you’re supporting sexual predators who had gender preferences for their victims, many of whom were children.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@Atlas Shrugged

Um, I guess you are the judge and jury. And ya, I know a lot of incidents where kids were sent off to FL for the winter armed with a credit card and a horse or two who became addicted to drugs (often via grooms) or pregnant, etc. And yes, I am lucky that my kids are happy and healthy. And I am glad that they know they can come to their parents when they think someting is NQR. There have been plenty of ups and downs, but they know they have parents who will listen.

When is someone going to do something about those ne’er-do-well grooms that keep corrupting innocent rich kids, and force them and their horses into drug addiction?

:rolleyes:

[ladyj79]

@FlaxenChestnut

When is someone going to do something about those ne’er-do-well grooms that keep corrupting innocent rich kids, and force them and their horses into drug addiction?

:rolleyes:

The post you quoted by @Atlas Shrugged was one of the most offensive comments I have read, which is cool cause we are talking about multiple threads with pedophile defenders.