PETA panties are wadded *originally re: docked tails on horses, train sidetracked & is now discussing dogs 😎

[AltersAreUs]

@endlessclimb

They don’t know the command if they didn’t listen

You must have PERFECT animals then who never blow you off once they know a command … what a load of horse pucky!

I guarantee you, my belgians, with all their titles front & back, know what “sit” means and yet when guests are pulling into the house, I can also guarantee for you that “sit” is not in the set of “commands they will obey right at this instance”. So I don’t ask it of them - I ask them to do something “active” with that energy that also allow my guests to get in the house without 150lbs of excited shepherd greeting them.

There are innumerable reasons why an animal won’t obey a command they know (distraction, excitement threshold, pain, what have you) and it’s up to you as a trainer to figure out why you’re getting ignored and what to do about it. A poke on the shoulder, either with your finger or an e-collar, can totally be enough to break through an attention or excitement threshold.

[endlessclimb]

We will never see eye to eye on this stuff, folks. Continue training your way, and we will continue proving you do NOT need a shock collar to train a hunting dog.

[endlessclimb]

@AltersAreUs

A poke on the shoulder, either with your finger or an e-collar, can totally be enough to break through an attention or excitement threshold.

E-collars. Do. Not. Poke.

They SHOCK the dog. That is their explicit purpose. Quit candy coating it to make yourself feel better.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

You mentioned how we train horses versus dogs - I don’t understand the disconnect between training dogs and horses. A horse biffs a transition, for example, you just repeat it until it improves. A dog biffs a command and they get shocked. A horse gets a little squirrely, you get it back under control and move on. A dog gets shocked for a similar mistake.

I don’t think you understand R- or horse training.

A horse falls into the center and you use inside leg to push it out - that’s R-
If they square up and stay straight, you take your leg off.
It has nothing to do with “repeat until it improves.” How will it know WHAT to do unless you’re giving some command? Most commands in horse training are using legs or hands to apply pressure and then releasing when the response is acceptable.

A dog is called to recall and it doesn’t respond, you apply pressure (tone, vibrate, stim) until it turns toward you and you take it off. R-

You can use an e-collar for P+ but it’s not shocking a dog for biffs a command. You use P+ with a collar for something like fence fighting or barking. A bark collar is P+ Bark = shock.

[AltersAreUs]

@endlessclimb

E-collars. Do. Not. Poke.

They SHOCK the dog. That is their explicit purpose. Quit candy coating it to make yourself feel better.

And TENS machines SHOCK horses (and people)! Doesn’t mean you’re causing your horse pain by using one on them, even though you totally can if you don’t know what you’re doing (sensing a theme here).

You seem to want people to be appalled by the fact that some folk use electricity to train their animals but levels are totally a thing most normal people understand.

If my dog responds to an e-collar, through their ruff, at a level I can’t feel on my bare skin, then yeah, it might be a “shock” but I’m betting it’s less pain-inducing than my finger poking them in the shoulder.

[AltersAreUs]

@endlessclimb

You mentioned how we train horses versus dogs - I don’t understand the disconnect between training dogs and horses. A horse biffs a transition, for example, you just repeat it until it improves. A dog biffs a command and they get shocked. A horse gets a little squirrely, you get it back under control and move on. A dog gets shocked for a similar mistake.

Goodness, that’s some over simplification (or, like S1969 said, you don’t understand training).

Horse or dog messes up a command - trainer’s first response is to ask why.

Is it a command the animal is expected to know? Is it still learning said command?

Was it set up for success (for the horse, well balanced to make the transition, for the dog, under it’s excitement/distraction threshold?)

If you’re pushing boundaries (most dogs get a solid down stay at home long before they can pull one off a the dog park), have you pushed too fast?

Is doing the command uncomfortable for the animal?

After you run through the mental checklist (which really, you should know the answers to all of these before you give the command), then you get to decide what the next step is, correction, “easier” command, reduce/retreat from stressful environment, what have you.

Are there bad “trainers” who go “sit, ZAAAAPPP!” Probably. Just like there are “trainers” that beat their horses around a course. Doesn’t mean e-collars are inherently evil just like a crop isn’t inherently evil.

[endlessclimb]

Man, now I don’t know how to train horses.

You train your way. We will train our way. And we will see who is more reliable when it’s just the dog and the handler, no remotes and no collars. We have results to back our methods up. Do they take longer? Absolutely. But in the end, it makes for a dog who wants to do the work, and is happy. Our dogs don’t know what human inflicted pain is.

They never will. Period.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

Man, now I don’t know how to train horses.

You train your way. We will train our way. And we will see who is more reliable when it’s just the dog and the handler, no remotes and no collars. We have results to back our methods up. Do they take longer? Absolutely. But in the end, it makes for a dog who wants to do the work, and is happy. Our dogs don’t know what human inflicted pain is.

They never will. Period.

No because you still keep responding in ways that suggest you don’t undestand what R- means.

There is nothing wrong with R-

It can be used to teach a dog to heel, a dog to fetch, it can be used to teach a horse to drive, or to ride.

You can use R+ to teach a horse many things, just like dogs.

But anytime you use pressure/release, it’s R-

Period.

And just editing to say that there is no need to physically apply pressure for R- to exist either. Clucking at a horse can be R-
You can use your voice to apply R- to a dog and you can also punish a dog with a verbal response.
It has nothing to do with human inflicted pain.

[Jenerationx]

@endlessclimb

Again - it would not work if it didn’t hurt. These dogs are VERY driven. If a shout doesn’t work, then a “tap on the shoulder” won’t either. Calling it “stimulation” or a “tap” is easy when the dog can’t talk, or tell you to take the thing off.

The good e-collars have about 100 or so levels and they do not cause pain until you get up into those levels. I have a friend with a deaf dog… that collar has been a gift for them to communicate. The dog works on a 4-5 level… the collar goes up to 127. I can’t personally feel anything below a 9 on my bare skin, and then it’s just a tingling.

@endlessclimb

Vibrate or beep is not a problem with me.

Shocking a dog is. If it were just a “tap on the shoulder” why wouldn’t they make these things with only the vibrate feature? Why put the shock feature in at all? Hmmm…

Interestingly enough, my friend felt the same way and bought the specific collar because it has a vibrate function. The dog reacts way more to vibrate than he does to the low level stim. He much prefers the stim. If you touch the vibrate, he yelps and tucks tail. So your thoughts that vibrate is less evasive than stim is not correct, at least not for that dog.

[Equibrit]

Good reading; https://thegundogclub.co.uk/books/

Does training method matter? Evidence for the negative impact of...

Tax;

[S1969]

Ehh… not really surprising given the actual study methods. Not really comparable to owners handling their own dogs in highly stimulating environments.

As always, method should be tailored to the dog and the task. It’s easy to teach a dog to do something with positive reinforcement. It’s harder to teach a dog to not do something with positive reinforcement. The same is true for horses. Easy to teach them to lower their head for bridling with a clicker. Not as easy to teach them to not drift laterally into the center or the wall with positive reinforcement.

Just editing - so this morning I used R- to stall my horses for their breakfast. I have dutch doors and they were all snoozing in the paddock rather than standing in stalls. I applied “pressure” to them by walking behind them until they chose to move to a stall and then I locked them in. I could see expressions of “stress” by this - one was yawning, for example. I could have used R+ by calling them into each stall and rewarding them. But I didn’t.

Was the R- more stressful – 100% yes – that’s WHY it works. Is it wrong, inappropriate, or abusive? Absolutely not.

[Jenerationx]

Yep… study methods are flawed as they are not following up for several years to see the success or failures of the dogs.

@S1969

Was the R- more stressful – 100% yes – that’s WHY it works. Is it wrong, inappropriate, or abusive? Absolutely not.

Exactly.