PETA panties are wadded *originally re: docked tails on horses, train sidetracked & is now discussing dogs 😎

[endlessclimb]

I never said I was R+ only. I said that we physically pick the dogs up and move them back to where they were whoaed at. They get stern talkings to if they get greedy and bust birds. etc etc.

What I’m saying is you can’t use a tool designed for pain in inexperienced or hot-headed hands, and not call it abuse. You can’t use 3 shock collars on one dog, and not call that abuse. You can’t put a shock collar on a belly, and not call that abuse. You can’t not do the pre-work, and then put a shock collar on, and not call that abuse.

Shock collars are now on nearly every hunting dog. How many of those handlers have the timing to use it correctly/appropriately? Probably <2%.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

never said I was R+ only

I am the one that said COTH is against R-

You keep making this about your experience.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

The obedience instructor did it as a challenge to herself - especially the part about not speaking a word at all so deliberately not using R+. And since she makes a living doing this, yes I think she has the skillset. It inspired a great discussion about how dog owners don’t think you should use anything other than R+ even when R- is equally effective.

Again, you’re talking about the 2% here. That’s fine! But how about Suzie Q with her first dog? Should she try this? Or how about Billy Bob who has a bad temper?

[S1969]

Yawn

[endlessclimb]

You quoted me, what was I supposed to think?

[S1969]

Because you keep responding.

We could talk for hours about stupid dog owners who click and treat too often and their dogs are fat and still untrained.

The fact that people suck at R+ doesn’t make it a bad method. You’re fixated on R- means inflicting pain, which by definition it does not.

[endlessclimb]

I mean, shock collars aren’t really used as R-. They’re used as P+, no? Especially if using them to train, and not reinforce an existing behavior. Having a shock collar on a dog who isn’t proofed in a behavior is using it as P+.

And yes, shock collars cause pain. They would not work if they didn’t. Just because the dog doesn’t yipe doesn’t mean it isn’t causing pain. I can’t believe this is even in question. “You adjust the collar until you get a response” is how you pick your setting. What would make the dog respond to one setting and not another if it wasn’t pain/discomfort?

I’m sure you’re skilled enough to use it, so I don’t know why you’re taking such a personal offense to me not wanting them used widely by people who don’t have a clue. The person with the fat and untrained dog won’t magically learn timing by giving them a shock collar or teaching them other R- techniques.

[endlessclimb]

Shall we talk about how force retrieve “isn’t painful”, too?

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

I never said I was R+ only. I said that we physically pick the dogs up and move them back to where they were whoaed at. They get stern talkings to if they get greedy and bust birds. etc etc.

What I’m saying is you can’t use a tool designed for pain in inexperienced or hot-headed hands, and not call it abuse. You can’t use 3 shock collars on one dog, and not call that abuse. You can’t put a shock collar on a belly, and not call that abuse. You can’t not do the pre-work, and then put a shock collar on, and not call that abuse.

Shock collars are now on nearly every hunting dog. How many of those handlers have the timing to use it correctly/appropriately? Probably <2%.

That is changing the discussion goal posts, not fair!

I seem to think initially you were against e-collars wholesale, in your opinion a horrible invention, didn’t seem to know the nuances of what they are and how they are used, just going by some misuse you seem to have experienced or think was happening?

I will repeat, e-collars are just one more tool to converse and teach, a more refined tool than others, it does require a more educated user than others, but are not inherently abusive, most tools can be that.

Glad that now you are understanding that if any abuse happens, it is the one using the tool, not the tool itself, as some of us have been trying to explain for those not directly familiar with e-collars.

[endlessclimb]

There are common uses of shock collars that are whole-sale abuse.

Using them to “train” a dog is abuse.

Using them on a flank/belly is abuse.

I don’t care who is doing it or what setting it’s on. It’s abuse.

If there are 1000 trainers, there are maybe 5 that have the skills to use it. So when I see it, unless that person has proven to me that they have done the pre-work to justify the progression, and they’ve shown me they are skilled enough to handle it, I assume abuse.

And - our dogs have proven that it is NOT NECESSARY in creating finished hunting dogs. So anyone using one on a dog <2 years old is interested in one thing - speed. The horse world (generally) knows how long training takes. The dog world is racing to see who can nab “youngest master hunter title”, and zapping dogs for making mistakes on birds.

[Bluey]

I tell you my direct experience with e-collars for training, not aversion, like in rattler proofing.
We had a top herding trainer, he had won the first cattle dog futurity, his dogs were top bred and extremely well trained.
He trained for years without e-collars, then when those were introduced, he started using them at times.
We had been training under him, I had done some puppy raising for him, he bred a few dogs a year and his working dogs were kennel dogs with house privileges.
Still, you can only raise so many puppies in a house, so I took the occasional one to get it started in household manners and basic obedience.
Serious herding training itself would not start until one turns on to herding and most do that between 6 months and a year.

I lost my bc I was using on our cattle and in herding trials.
I didn’t want another dog and one day he gave me one of his puppies.
I was training her in obedience and that new agility training stuff that was just starting then and she was a star at it.
She was herding well, attentive to the whistle for long distance work.
At that time he started using e-collars and wanted me to try for long distance work.
His idea was, if in training a dog is where it is not hearing the whistle, an e-collar could help.
I was hardheaded and didn’t want to, just no, set against it, not knowing better, but that has never stopped anyone from having an opinion, right?
He insisted his dogs were trained better when they didn’t get to not hear him and make mistakes.

So, I never did learn that one more way of training, to use that one tool, but now decades later realize it would have been fine, my dog would have been fine, used properly, as his dogs were.
I will still caution about e-collar use, as with any other tool, you need to know what you are doing or any can become abusive.

[endlessclimb]

@Bluey

His idea was, if in training a dog is where it is not hearing the whistle, an e-collar could help

I assume you don’t mean this literally, as in “the dog is so far out he can’t hear us, so we’re going to shock him.” It’s a figurative “not hear,” as in “ignore”?

[endlessclimb]

Even the collar manufacturers know what’s up.

Calling it “stimulation” instead of what it is - an electric shock.

I don’t think anyone would mix those words up anywhere else… eh.

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

I assume you don’t mean this literally, as in “the dog is so far out he can’t hear us, so we’re going to shock him.” It’s a figurative “not hear,” as in “ignore”?

You may have missed at the start of this discussion where we consider e-collar use for training to be a kind of light tap on the shoulder, as in pay attention.
Seems you think trainers just shock the heck out of a dog, out of the blue and then expect the dog to do … what, think oh, maybe I better think this thru?
Dogs don’t think like that.

[endlessclimb]

An electric shock is not, and never will be, a “tap on the shoulder”. That’s so disingenuous, and entirely untrue. If it were a “tap on the shoulder” these high drive hunting dogs would blow right through it.

It may hurt less at level 5 rather than level 10, but it still hurts.

Look at the dog dancing around in the video I posted with it on the flank. He’s not dancing because it tickles.

Edit: Please tell me you aren’t shocking a dog who is so far out they can’t even hear the command/whistle…

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

An electric shock is not, and never will be, a “tap on the shoulder”. That’s so disingenuous, and entirely untrue. If it were a “tap on the shoulder” these high drive hunting dogs would blow right through it.

It may hurt less at level 5 rather than level 10, but it still hurts.

Look at the dog dancing around in the video I posted with it on the flank. He’s not dancing because it tickles.

Really, you think a harsh shock is how all trainers use those collars for training and assume a dog will get trained, not scared out of its wits and running for the hills?

I saw one trainer’s dogs in herding trails that at times would run off and not want to come back, before e-collars and wondered how he was training to have the occasional dog do that?

Your experience is with sporting dogs, you say, they probably are as intense on birds as herding dogs are when herding.
A small shock is for them when herding barely as a tap on the shoulder, they don’t even act like they noticed it as any discomfort, for what I have seen when herding and would think is similar when on birds?

If you see dogs not trained right, maybe think is the trainer, not what he uses, that another trainer may use e-collars properly and dogs be fine?
There are training ways I don’t care for, e-collars one because I never learned how to use one, but I know others do fine for their dogs with them.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

I assume you don’t mean this literally, as in “the dog is so far out he can’t hear us, so we’re going to shock him.” It’s a figurative “not hear,” as in “ignore”?

Some have a two mile range, you know. Not everyone is handling a close-working hunting dog.

That’s where the beep command is used. But for people who also use GPS on the dogs, they can see whether the dog is turning to recall or not.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

Not everyone is handling a close-working hunting dog.

I wish you could come hunt with us sometime. GPS for the girls is non-negotiable, and I get sick of power walking to one of them on point a mile+ away. EDIT: Have you ever been to a NSTRA event? Close hunting? Not if you want to win.

YOU said beep. That’s not what Bluey said. Please tell me we aren’t shocking dogs that are miles ahead of us, unable to hear commands.

And @Bluey yes, the shock has to hurt or it would not be effective. Just because the dog is accustomed to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt.

[tabula_rashah]

Is everyone ignoring the giant big hulking elephant in the barn that training a horse is not the same as training a dog??? You can argue for days that using a dressage whip or spurs as intended (aka not for beating but for clarifying of a signal) is the same as an electric shock but you’ll still be coming apples to gravy boats. Not anywhere near the same.
And for the record, I don’t care if chopping off part of your dog or horse or kid is breed standard. Change the #)&$)#* standard. If someone told me I couldn’t participate in endurance unless I docked my horse’s tail, I’d throw a holy fit and then not participate until they fixed their issue. Participating in sports, breed shows etc with animals is not a right. It’s not a necessity. It is a privilege. Do better for your animal.

[endlessclimb]

Let’s also mention how many dogs are collar-smart. (nearly all of them, after awhile…)

So… what did we actually accomplish with the collar, when the dog reverts to garbage behavior the second you take it off?