As I’ve posted lately…we’re looking for a pinto stallion prospect to breed to our painted (DW) TB mares and pinto ISH cross mares. I came across a lovely looking Trakehner/APHA cross colt. Any opinions??? I want “some blood”, but looking more toward a bit laid back attitude in the stallion. Our mares are all super sane!! Thanks. (Not giving specifics to cause owner of colt any grief!!)
We have bred several Trakehner/APHA crosses (and some Appy crosses) over the years and have had very good luck with them. They have all been perfect Ammy horses but still with plenty of talent to be competitive. But we have not bred the crosses for any 2nd generation, so can’t really give an opinion as to that. You will get a lot of opinions, I’m sure, most probably won’t be encouraging, but I honestly believe the “right” QH, Appy and Paints can be used very successfully in a program producing competitive mounts for the majority of riders. If you go here: http://rivervalefarm.com/sold%20horses.htm and scroll down you will see pics of the APHA crosses.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8011730]
We have bred several Trakehner/APHA crosses (and some Appy crosses) over the years and have had very good luck with them. They have all been perfect Ammy horses but still with plenty of talent to be competitive. But we have not bred the crosses for any 2nd generation, so can’t really give an opinion as to that. You will get a lot of opinions, I’m sure, most probably won’t be encouraging, but I honestly believe the “right” QH, Appy and Paints can be used very successfully in a program producing competitive mounts for the majority of riders. If you go here: http://rivervalefarm.com/sold%20horses.htm and scroll down you will see pics of the APHA crosses.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that information. Trakehners don’t seem to be mentioned much in the sport horse chats.
My half tb Paint Mare had a colt ( gelding) by Special Memories who went on to be a good A circuit hunter. The thing is with the Paint crosses is that the WB registries will not take a colt from a lower book ( and unless the paint is all or almost all tb then it will be in a lower book ) as a stallion prospect.I don’t know the rules with Trak… Have dealt with Old/ ISR and RPSI.
I think the Trak blood is going to be a bigger issues than the Paint blood.
And before anyone jumps down my throat–I’ve known and ridden some SUPER Traks. Love the breed. But many riders and trainers I know grimace when I mention Traks and immediately come back with “too hot/crazy.”
It’s an unfortunate negative stereotype, but it’s also pervasive. You’d have to deal with that somehow, unfair as it is.
I think the multitude of successful Sport Horses who are Trakehner or part Trakehner has went a long way towards dispelling this “hot/crazy” old wives tale. Sure, there will be those types of folks out there but those aren’t the people you want riding your horses anyway.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8012430]
I think the multitude of successful Sport Horses who are Trakehner or part Trakehner has went a long way towards dispelling this “hot/crazy” old wives tale. Sure, there will be those types of folks out there but those aren’t the people you want riding your horses anyway.[/QUOTE]
Right. Every breed has some bad bloodlines (even quarter horses!) but there are too many very nice Trakehners or part-Trakehners out there for that garbage.
I don’t mind color when it comes along with talent, conformation and good breeding - I actuall really appreciate it - but I would be looking for warmblood pintos and keep the horses registered, rather than crossing in APHA.
I say that as a HUGE fan of paints and stock type horses - but I see plenty of nicely built, athletic paints around here that I would just keep them purebred and registered if I wanted to go that direction, too. Heck, I would love if there were more people breeding them for sport purposes and keeping that athleticism and soundness going because of how much negligent breeding is happening for the sake of futurities.
The Trak/APHA colt is already in existence…I would be breeding to TB and 1/2, 3/4 TB, Irish Sport Horse mares. The colt is very TBy looking/moving. I’m wanting the pinto markings while trying to avoid the typical westerny APHA stereotype. I would think the APHA would tone down the Trak “blood”. Colt is already registered ATA.
My point is to investigate if he would be accepted as a stallion prospect with them first. Is he main book ATA, do they have a lower book and if so can lower book foals be accepted as a stallion prospect? Just because I know with other registries they cannot. Last I worked with Old/ISR the colt had to be " more than 75% acceptable pedigree". My Paint stallion is mostly TB and was only allowed to be presented at RPSI because his sire was a TB and previously inspected as well. He isn’t your average Paint. Although he is not main book, I went to the inspection route because he had a couple WB cross foals I wanted to at least get COP papers on. His main home registry remains APHA. Now a WB cross foal…that would be his ONLY registry option, so make sure it is with the main registry. And do Trak. prospects have to do the stallion testing for approval? I don’t know… But things to inquire about in the world of warmbloods. Do Trak foals need to be presented for inspection? I ask since in another post you made a comment about a remote location. Things to look into. with APHA you need to deal with none of that. Mares foals and stallion do not need to be inspected. Things to ponder…
The ATA wil not inspect a horse that is part APHA (mare or stallion). The blood must either be TK, TB, Arab or Anglo Arab only. There is a “D” book for “part bred” TK - by an approved stallion - but they are not elig for approvals, moving up in the stud book etc (and the offspring cannot be moved up/inspected).
I’m pretty sure the registry options for offspring of a Trak/APHA crossed on TB and TB/ISH mares is going to be PHR and if colored PtHA. But the reality is that if you are breeding performance horses, the majority of your buyers are going to be interested in “riding” horses, not what papers they have.
If you get this colt, I would get him registered with the PtHA (Pinto Horse Registry) and go that route with his offspring. It sounds to me like you are trying to breed a nice, pretty horse for the “average” American rider. Not a bad idea, IMO :).
While the horse you end up with may indeed be a good horse, with this cross you have a few things " against you" in terms of selling at a good price before the horse is old enough to be evaluated under saddle.
-
both Trakheners and stock horses face some prejudice by many in the Sporthorse world. Combining the two gives you a double dose of reasons to lose potential buyers. I’m not saying that this is deserved, I just think it’s a reality you’d have to contend with. You potentially have to invest much more time and money into the offspring before being able to sell them at a good price.
-
The registry options for the cross would be very limited. Again, this would potentially reduce your potential buyer pool.
-
that’s a pretty disparate gene pool there…it does make the possible outcomes of such a mating less predictable. Isn’t there a (proven) pinto stud available who is closer to the type of mare you already have?
Just my thoughts
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8014150]
I’m pretty sure the registry options for offspring of a Trak/APHA crossed on TB and TB/ISH mares is going to be PHR and if colored PtHA. But the reality is that if you are breeding performance horses, the majority of your buyers are going to be interested in “riding” horses, not what papers they have.
If you get this colt, I would get him registered with the PtHA (Pinto Horse Registry) and go that route with his offspring. It sounds to me like you are trying to breed a nice, pretty horse for the “average” American rider. Not a bad idea, IMO :).[/QUOTE]
Thank you!! These are exactly my thoughts!! Our Irish Sport Horses are not registered because 1. Our “best” Irish mare died before we could get her to the closest inspection 20 hours away and 2. Having only three foals by Seattle Blues before we gelded him, it was not worth the $1000 cost plus travel to have him inspected/approved 20 hours away. Our youngsters sell for very good prices on pedigree and quality. We specialize on “Sport Horses”…hopefully with color…not WB’s. Good advice. IMO.
[QUOTE=camohn;8013678]
My point is to investigate if he would be accepted as a stallion prospect with them first. Is he main book ATA, do they have a lower book and if so can lower book foals be accepted as a stallion prospect? Just because I know with other registries they cannot. Last I worked with Old/ISR the colt had to be " more than 75% acceptable pedigree". My Paint stallion is mostly TB and was only allowed to be presented at RPSI because his sire was a TB and previously inspected as well. He isn’t your average Paint. Although he is not main book, I went to the inspection route because he had a couple WB cross foals I wanted to at least get COP papers on. His main home registry remains APHA. Now a WB cross foal…that would be his ONLY registry option, so make sure it is with the main registry. And do Trak. prospects have to do the stallion testing for approval? I don’t know… But things to inquire about in the world of warmbloods. Do Trak foals need to be presented for inspection? I ask since in another post you made a comment about a remote location. Things to look into. with APHA you need to deal with none of that. Mares foals and stallion do not need to be inspected. Things to ponder…[/QUOTE]
At the beginning of our sport horse breeding (we previously bred racing TB’s) we had Puchi’s Rambo, painted TB and a gorgeous 16.1+ hand homozygous, APHA stud. I have nothing against that breed if it is the right type, but I have been searching the sale sites for months and not found a single, quality paint stud over 16 hands…and that wasn’t a guaranteed measurement. One older stallion was advertised as 16.2, which the owner said was accurate…she sold the horse and the new owner advertises him at stud at “almost” 15.2!!! “That” is my only problem with APHA…they think a horse is “HUGE” if he is 15 hands!! I’d love to find a nice, BIG, huntery, tobiano paint!!
Am I wrong in thinking that if the Trakehner adds a little “heat” to the breeding…a Trakehner x Paint cross should be more in line with a TB x Paint cross than a WB x TB cross??? Just asking. I haven’t dealt with WB’s and there are SO MANY options and variations of WB’s.
On the other hand…do you think I should stay with the TB/Pinto/ISH line?? Not add any Trk or WB to the pot. I have two very nice ISH mares bred to Challenged, due in May this year. Foals will be 5/8 TB - 1/8 Irish - 1/4 Paint (16.2 Huntery paint) Of course…I’ll get two fillies!!!
We have found the Trak/Paint crosses to be pretty quiet, but not deadheads. Sensitive enough to be easy to ride, but not over reactive. In our experience they have been easier and calmer than TB crosses. I think adding Trak to the pot adds movement and jump.
[QUOTE=camohn;8013678]
My point is to investigate if he would be accepted as a stallion prospect with them first…[/QUOTE]
There is a breeder in our area who has utilized Paint blood in her program because she wants the OVERO pattern and that does not exist in WBs (only tobiano).
She stood stallions for years, each generation getting closer to the accepted % of outside blood allowed by the registry (RPSI). Meanwhile, her stallions were recorded (not approved).
This lovely filly could produce a fully approved stallion (assuming my math is correct) if she was bred to an approved WB. That would put the Paint (Luxy Te) back in the 6th generation.
http://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=38532&UserID=6491
If I was interested in unusual color(s), I would utilize this mare and/or others like her.
But if I was happy with the tobiano pattern, I think I would stay with 100% WBs at this point and not mix in Paint. I say this as a breeder AND a buyer.
There are plenty of quality WBs from both the Dutch & Trak lines to choose from these days to give you that color/pattern.
The breeder of Real Prada has produced ALOT of horses to produce this one, because you cannot have a homozygous overo. But if I was looking at a stallion to produce color, I would definitely pick one who is homozygous for the pattern.
Luckily for me the only color breeding I was ever involved with was with Kinor (a cremello) and that was pretty simple stuff.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8014721]
There is a breeder in our area who has utilized Paint blood in her program because she wants the OVERO pattern and that does not exist in WBs (only tobiano).
She stood stallions for years, each generation getting closer to the accepted % of outside blood allowed by the registry (RPSI). Meanwhile, her stallions were recorded (not approved).
This lovely filly could produce a fully approved stallion (assuming my math is correct) if she was bred to an approved WB. That would put the Paint (Luxy Te) back in the 6th generation.
http://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=38532&UserID=6491
If I was interested in unusual color(s), I would utilize this mare and/or others like her.
But if I was happy with the tobiano pattern, I think I would stay with 100% WBs at this point and not mix in Paint. I say this as a breeder AND a buyer.
There are plenty of quality WBs from both the Dutch & Trak lines to choose from these days to give you that color/pattern.
The breeder of Real Prada has produced ALOT of horses to produce this one, because you cannot have a homozygous overo. But if I was looking at a stallion to produce color, I would definitely pick one who is homozygous for the pattern.
Luckily for me the only color breeding I was ever involved with was with Kinor (a cremello) and that was pretty simple stuff.[/QUOTE]
Using Puchi’s Rambo (Puchilingui) as our foundation stallion to produce “painted pure TB’s” all we were breeding for/getting was the overo…which thanks to color/genetics experts here on COTH…I now know that they are titled Dominant White…which people still refer to as overos/sabinos…whatever. I love the various overo/DW patterns, but you can’t believe how many people think they are Appaloosas!! People just don’t seem to favor/understand the lacey overo markings. Most of our potential buyers over the years were ONLY interested in OUR horses to fill THEIR breeding ranks. Most didn’t want to ride them at all!! I was leaning toward the tobiano as a more popularly accepted pattern. We added the Irsh blood to make the lovely, QUIET/rider friendly TB’s that we breed suit today’s riders. I do aim our breedings toward refining the ISH horses toward a bit easier to deal with TB. All of our broodmares are homebreds…3 of them are full TB’s, one is 3/4 TB, and two are tobiano, part TB, ISH mares. Having three HUGE, stunning foals this year by our loudly sabino, TB stallion Challenged and getting wild chrome, but no DW/sabino spotting got me to rethinking our direction. Plus as I age…AI is looking a lot safer/saner than live cover!!
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions!! I especially apppreciate the comments from NoDQhere!!
[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;8011512]
As I’ve posted lately…we’re looking for a pinto stallion prospect to breed to our painted (DW) TB mares and pinto ISH cross mares. I came across a lovely looking Trakehner/APHA cross colt. Any opinions??? I want “some blood”, but looking more toward a bit laid back attitude in the stallion. Our mares are all super sane!! Thanks. (Not giving specifics to cause owner of colt any grief!!)[/QUOTE]
This is just my thoughts as a buyer–thinking about the horse I would buy for myself to ride perhaps. With it being an “outside registry” or F1 type cross, I would be more focused on the individual horse in front of me than bloodlines (although those would be important if you already had the same cross a few years older under saddle, for example). So it really would likely need to be under saddle, so I could see temperament on top of talent.
I would also want to see what it looked like “grown up.” I’ve seen some super nice, but also some wonky-looking appendix horses, for example. So I would be cautious about buying a foal for that reason. I wonder if a stock type to a Trak could have similar outcomes… Once the program is established it may not be an issue?
Just my two cents. I don’t know if this will really be a concern for others or not…or maybe you plan to sell riding horses vs. foals?
I have been breeding pinto warmbloods for almost 20 years! My foundation stallion, Claim to Fame is 3/4 TB, but registered Oldenburg. He STILL holds the record of being the ONLY Tobiano Pinto Horse to EVER win a blue ribbon in Hunter Breeding at Devon. He had to be extra typey to win that. He then went on to compete successfully in the professional hunter divisions, then with me, his 50+adult amateur. I collect him myself and he’s had many nice foals here and all over the country. They were recently featured in Sidelines Magazine’s stallion issue.
I also have his homozygous 16.2h black pinto son, who is also here and very sweet. His foals were also featured. His three year son from a TB dam was recently sold and is moving to PA near Devon…with hopes of being in the youngsters class this spring.
I applaud those who want to add color to quality…Of course, you can never control where the color lies. Optical illusions occur often in pintos. I also have hunted quite a few I’ve bred, and I’m amazed how many pintos I saw out hunting all over the country…
