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Placing a lien on a horse

Around The Farm
#21

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;7973223]

Also, I am confused. You say you own the horse (was given to you) but you also want to say you do not own the horse (owed for board etc?) Which is it you do, or do not, own the horse.[/QUOTE]
I understand what the OP is trying to do.

Since the OP does not have anything from the original owner saying the OP owns the horse and the OP wants that, the lien process is a way of saying - ok since I did not own the horse all this time (since the original owner will not hand over papers), you must have owned it and you owe me board and expenses for paying for your horse all this time and if you do not pay I will file a lien.

#22

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7973257]
I understand what the OP is trying to do.

Since the OP does not have anything from the original owner saying the OP owns the horse and the OP wants that, the lien process is a way of saying - ok since I did not own the horse all this time (since the original owner will not hand over papers), you must have owned it and you owe me board and expenses for paying for your horse all this time and if you do not pay I will file a lien.[/QUOTE]

But if there is no agreement for prior owner to pay board and vet, what are the grounds? Why couldn’t prior owner then say it was a free lease and take the horse back?

#23

Have you at least contacted your breed association to discuss this with them? Maybe they will give you ideas of different options you may have?

#24

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;7973321]
But if there is no agreement for prior owner to pay board and vet, what are the grounds? Why couldn’t prior owner then say it was a free lease and take the horse back?[/QUOTE]
I was not saying it would work, I was just explaining the thought behind the plan.

#25

[QUOTE=HorseShwBrat;7973074]
I do not run a boarding barn - the situation is that I was verbally promised papers on this horse two years ago when it was given to me for free, and the owner of record has never followed through.
…[/QUOTE]

“verbal” ???

As in, “she said / he said” ???
(or switching out the he’s and she’s as appropriate … )

I am watching with great interest to see if anyone with a legal background thinks there is anything to stand on in any sort of legal action. I am not at all sure what there is to file a lien on - but dunno about a situation like this.

[QUOTE=HorseShwBrat;7973074]…
Any person who feeds or boards an animal under contract with the owner shall have a lien on such animal to secure payment for food and board furnished.
…[/QUOTE]

But there is no contract.

And the old owner apparently thinks you are the owner.

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7973257]I understand what the OP is trying to do.

Since the OP does not have anything from the original owner saying the OP owns the horse and the OP wants that, the lien process is a way of saying - ok since I did not own the horse all this time (since the original owner will not hand over papers), you must have owned it and you owe me board and expenses for paying for your horse all this time and if you do not pay I will file a lien.[/QUOTE]

That’s a very interesting approach … is that what you are describing, OP?

How much is this horse worth? Sounds like there could be quite a few hoops to jump through.

[QUOTE=HorseShwBrat;7973074]I do not run a boarding barn - the situation is that I was verbally promised papers on this horse two years ago when it was given to me for free, and the owner of record has never followed through.

… Someone advised me that at this point the only way I can force the issue is to place a lien, and take the horse on back board and vet bills.
…[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, if something about starting this process serves to pressure the former owner (or is it still the current owner?) to cough up the papers and transfer ownership, would that be satisfactory, OP?

Generally speaking … Legal action tends to be expensive and has an uncertain outcome. And sometimes some bad surprises. In many cases almost any other solution is better, even if it isn’t perfect.

#26

  1. You don’t have to sell the horse under the code section you quoted. It says you may sell after you follow the procedures.

  2. You don’t actually have any sort of boarding/feeding contract with the owner/former owner. What you have is a verbal sales contract. I don’t think the lien process is necessarily available to you to resolve your issue unless there is another section of the code that is more applicable to your particular issue.

Moral of the story: Always, always, always get a bill of sale even for a “free” horse.

#27

Does the old owner now dispute the ownership of this horse? Or can they just not be bothered to send you the papers?

If not - and I guess that is an open question - most breed associations have a process for reissuing “lost” papers.

I understand that you may not have any paperwork in hand today that can prove you are the owner, and that that may be the problem you are trying to solve.

I don’t think a lien is the way to go though. You place a lien on someone ELSE’S property to recover costs. If you place a lien on the horse, it seems to me you are essentially creating documentation that you are not the owner.

I think I would be more likely to pursue a breach of contract type approach. You had a (verbal) contract that you would take this horse on the condition the old owner handed over the papers, and they have not done so.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and don’t even play one on TV. You should consult an actual attorney before proceeding.

Good luck.

#28

I think you are SOL. When my parents and I bought my mare, we were told she was a registered quarter horse. She was picked up at an auction in Missouri and trucked back here with the rest of the horses the seller purchased there to resell here in PA. We were promised that they were getting the papers from the auction house and would pass them on to us when they arrived.

15 years later and we are still waiting on the papers. :stuck_out_tongue: I really didn’t care as I hate QH breed stuff and had zero interest outside of just seeing what her name was and what her lineage was. In the long run, I’m just happy I have her and registered her as a Quarter Pony (who will register any horse that has a stock-horse appearance and not gaited) just for the heck of it.

Stepping into the former owner’s shoes…I have nothing to loose. You take “my” horse (the one I gave you because I don’t want it anymore)? Ok, go ahead. There is ZERO incentive for me to give you anything. I have nothing to loose.

But like other have said above, check with a lawyer.

#29

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7973257]
I understand what the OP is trying to do.

Since the OP does not have anything from the original owner saying the OP owns the horse and the OP wants that, the lien process is a way of saying - ok since I did not own the horse all this time (since the original owner will not hand over papers), you must have owned it and you owe me board and expenses for paying for your horse all this time and if you do not pay I will file a lien.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I am trying for. I want MY name on this horse’s registration papers as legal owner, both for the peace of mind that she can never be forceably taken from me (and yes, I can easily see the owner of record doing that just to be spiteful at this point - when I say he is an especially nasty brand of toxic pond scum, I’m seriously understating matters), and for showing and maybe later breeding purposes. Both of those require my name on the registration papers.

At the time the horse was given, things between the owner of record were very very different. I don’t think anyone involved on my side could have possibly foreseen the situation that we are in now. At that time it was unfathomable to think that the verbal agreement would not be upheld. Oh how the times have changed…

For those who were asking about value: she is royally bred, but as an unproven broodmare is completely worthless (proven brood mares have gone through our sales for less than $600). As a potential show horse she likely would be worth more, but as-is less than $2500 by my estimate of the current market - I actually saw several horses very similar go for less than $1000.

I will be contacting an attorney (luckily I know one that would like to stick it to the owner of record for gits and shiggles), and will try contacting the registry to clarify what I need to do to force a transfer of ownership.

Thank you everyone for your help.

#30

I think you need to stop and think about it like this…she was GIVEN to you for FREE. If you found out tomorrow that she was never registered and wasn’t eligible to be…what would you do? Demand your money back? Horse was free. Decide to charge them back board and vet bills? Not cool. You have had the horse and used her and shown her. What if they say ok, we will pay you back for board and vetting, but you have to bring her back and pay us back x number of dollars per month to lease the horse? Hardly fair is it? Leasing the horse for money wasn’t your deal with them, just like boarding the horse for money if the papers weren’t given to you wasn’t their deal with you.

Does it suck? Yep. I know you are worried that you will spend your time and money showing her and then one day ownership may be contested. Your best bet is to send them a letter from your lawyer friend that says you are planning to enter some shows that require proof of ownership, give them the options of either sending you the papers or signing a 1.00 bill of sale for the horse ( which would allow you to get her papers yourself).

#31

She did not say she had shown the horse, she has said she would like to show. Additionally she has said how difficult this person has become and was not like this before. This is why you always need to get a bill of sale even for a free horse. This is not a lien matter, and could very well backfire against you by you loosing the horse at auction or you buying it back if your state requires that. Have you asked the owner if you can buy the papers?

#32

This is making less sense all the time. Sorry OP … but starting to miss where the common sense factor comes in.

Is there any form of ‘abandonment’ law that could have some sort of legal ownership designated to you, without getting the old owner involved? Just if the old owner has shown no interest in the horse and you’ve been paying the bills … have no clue how or if that would work, but that’s what I would be hoping for, in your shoes. That would designation would be good to have in any case, but maybe it would also be enough to approach the breed association.

Re liens etc, I have no idea why you think showing is worth chasing the papers directly with the owner, after all this time, when the downside risk is so much higher than the chance of getting said papers. Other than perhaps your real intentions have always been to get $$ out of this horse, in some form or fashion, not just rescue it from a disinterested owner.

How do you know the papers even exist, other than the word of “toxic pond scum” old owner? Shocking as it is :eek: ;), horse owners have been known to, er, stretch the truth about their horse’s bona fides, if they figure the other person has no way to find out.

And believing you were getting a registered horse might have helped convince you to take this horse off old owner’s bill, regardless of the truth of that statement. Just a thought.

That’s the one thing we can all count on after any transaction. It seems so real in the moment … but later on, yep, the vibe between the principals can change. Alot.

It sounds like there is much more to know - just how deep below the surface is this iceberg?

#33

[QUOTE=HorseShwBrat;7973190]
The usual security that one has with registration papers?[/QUOTE]

Certificate of registration is not automatically considered indisputable proof of ownership.

It may help prove ownership along with other, like vet and farrier bills, etc.

I am going to have to get new glasses, title keeps reading “placing alien on horse”.

#34

Before you do anything “legal”, I would find out what it would take for the registry to give you papers on the horse.

Just buying the horse through a lien might not be enough, particularly if this is a breed that doesn’t do DNA typing to prove it is the correct horse. It would be a shame to go through a bunch of risky legal moves only to not get what you want: the papers.

Do you know the horse’s registered name or registration number? Can you find out who she is legally registered under? It is possible that the registration is under a name different than the person you got her from…that might make it even easier to resolve!

#35

I do not understand why people will not transfer the breed papers. What is to be gained by this?

#36

[QUOTE=HappyTalk;7977254]
I do not understand why people will not transfer the breed papers. What is to be gained by this?[/QUOTE]

You are right in your insinuation that there is no gain to hanging on to breed papers …

… but people sometimes act emotionally, out of frustration, disappointment, even spite. They don’t want to admit they failed with a horse by allowing someone else to publicly succeed (at a horse show). They don’t want someone else to profit on the horse when they did not. They are just angry, and expressing it by uncooperativeness. Giving up the horse can be a stressful situation, and sometimes people react to stress in illogical ways.

#37

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7972583]
So, go here to start:

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/statutes.htm

G.[/QUOTE]

Guilherme, you rock!! I can make good use of this site.

#38

[QUOTE=HappyTalk;7977254]
I do not understand why people will not transfer the breed papers. What is to be gained by this?[/QUOTE]

If you buy a horse from my trainer he will happily stand behind his horses and give you the papers. He’s given some horses that weren’t cut out to be show horses away without papers in the past. He’s had a few people come back to him, after buying one of those horses from Some Where, looking for papers. He’ll tell them politely to pack sand.

Given that he doesn’t know where the horse has been or how it’s been handled, he won’t stand behind it & doesn’t want the liability of having trained it at some time in the past.* Most times it’s been someone he knows asking for papers - someone that could have bought the horse from him years before but wouldn’t. I don’t blame him one bit.

If he gives one away for little or nothing w/o papers, it’s still a well broke horse. If you think you want to show in the future, pay him for the time & effort that he put in it, & he will gladly transfer the papers. His horses are fairly priced; if you want to show, hand over the $.

*He does know of cases where a trainer was sued after a new owner got hurt, despite there being 2 or 3 owner between that time & the current owner’s purchase. Who needs a nuisance lawsuit?

#39

The last sentence is nonsense, all I can say is prove it by real documentation. There is no good reason not to give a horses papers with it. All you are doing is giving the horse less of a chance, if it gets in trouble, for someone to find out it’s history, and perhaps someone who may just want to save the animal. The rest of that is just malarkey and someone’s poor excuse. I have never heard such nonsense in my life.

#40

[QUOTE=HappyTalk;7977254]
I do not understand why people will not transfer the breed papers. What is to be gained by this?[/QUOTE]

Because, despite what they say, some people just don’t have the papers to give.

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